MTH/Dorfan green

   I am no expert on MTH products but as far as their IVES and AF imitations go the colors are super off. They are so far off i find it impossible to assume any attempt was made to match the colors of the originals.

  I really don't think they are intended to be reproductions. Just something new to satisfy that market niche. Of the few pieces i have seen tooled in recent years almost no parts are interchangeable with the original either.

I actually know next-to-nothing about IVES and AF, but is it possible the colors are closer than you think due to the fact you are comparing brand new paint to paint that is 80 or 90 years old???  Just asking...that's all!!!

Ron Blume,

You're right on the money. Plus the chemical compounds used early in the last century are no longer legal. Even though these pieces were made overseas they are subject to US consumer laws. I've taken a few of my early Lionel & Ives pieces to automotive paint suppliers to be matched. This is a luxury that train makers do not use mainly due to the chemicals being used are not made for use on, "toys".

God Bless,

Pappy

TCA TTOS 

That may be, in reference to the original Dorfan green.

My main point was that MTH is apparently using John Deere green for their Dorfan reproductions, something that I find just so off-base as to be unbelievable.  (comparing modern paint MTH to modern paint JD).

I don't have any original Dorfan tinplate, so I was also wondering if someone who does know Dorfan green might correct me and let me know that actually JD green isn't so far off Dorfan. In which case the whole thing might not be as outrageous as it seems.  I doubt this is the case, but am interested. 

Nighthawk,  "...impossible to assume any attempt was made to match the colors..." 

that's a little depressing.

Well as far as the Dorfan green goes, i have not had the two pieces side by side but from photographs the MTH/JD color looks more Yellow than the original color.

As far as paint changing color after years it totally depends on the conditions it was exposed to. Enamel paints dont just change on their own. Dirt and surface contaminants are the leading factors in this. However the insides of pieces and top condition examples should have the same color as they did when they left the factory. Having handled many nearly unused originals that looked factory fresh i can assure you the MTH colors are boldly off.

 The most blatant example off the top of my head are the IVES Cardinal Red and Cadet Blue, the original Cadet had many shades as IVES often shellacked their pieces. More often than not it is a pleasant turquoise color. The MTH version is basically a very pale baby blue. No way they made that attempt.

 The red MTH used is an orange hued fire engine color. The original was a dark deep enamel which gives off a purplish hue. These two colors could not be more different.

 I have done many restorations and i can assure you all colors can be matched with modern single stage enamels. It just depends on how much time you want to spend and how faithful you wish to be to the original. Later IVES pieces are very popular because of their stunning color schemes, one reason i feel MTH IVES imitations failed so miserably with IVES collectors. It did take me over a year to figure out a good match for Cardinal red.

 This brings around the point i made that MTH is not making reproductions, but new "imitations" which mimic the look of the original. They are not marketing the pieces to to collectors, rather the new tinplate guys who like the sounds and shiny trim and paint. Nothing wrong with that, it created a whole new market niche. The MTH version of the 1134 is similar only in profile. Very few if any parts are interchangeable between the new and old, and the power units are night and day.

 The old reproduction firms which have all but disappeared went to incredible lengths to make dead on copies. The only one around still doing this is Joe Mania, and he does a heck of a job.

 Nothing wrong with any of this. The MTH products are just what they claim to be. New Trains!

Going by this shot off the net, I'd say the original was John Deere green. I think John Deere should sue Dorfan for ripping off their colour!

BnO, thanks for the photo.  Nighthawk is right, JD is much more yellow, the original Dorfan is a much deeper green.  The difference is like sky blue to royal blue.

Nighthawk, your comments are appreciated, and I'm giving them credence because I gather you've had a lot of these trains pass through your hands. (I've bought a few from you - i'm miazal on ebay)

"MTH is not making reproductions, but new "imitations" which mimic the look of the original."   This casts the whole discussion in a different light.  I like the MTH products, I think they are generally high quality for this day and age.  But you're right I think in saying they are doing their own thing for their own reasons and it's apples and oranges when it comes to the originals.

I just bought a couple of Ives reproduction accessories from Joe Mania and I was absolutely floored by both the quality of manufacture and finish, and also the absolute fidelity to the original.  Now that I think about it, you're quite right, this is not what MTH is doing.  And again, that's okay, MTH is making some cool toys.  Apples and oranges.  

I'm glad to hear you liked Joe's stuff. Plus that loco you bought off me was cool! I almost kept that one but it did not fit into the IVES on the shelves. Can't have it all huh?

 If it was a fast one why would MTH make 2 different colored engines.

Here is my friends original Dorfan 40 tender in green. As you can see it is much darker.

You are right, it is darker. I would guess it's hard to match 80 year old paint these days.

there was a green dorfan on ebay all original with box didnt look like it was ever used. He would be the one to get the color match from for a repaint and it's a draker green than yawn deere i would say its closer to AC green before the went orange

I think MTH Tinplate should be called "replica" and "reproduction" reserved for no-compromise products like Joe Mania makes.  And I also think that "repaint" is different from a museum-quality "restoration".

As to the paint issue, unless you find a sealed-in-box original it's a guess as to what the paint actually looked like 80+ years ago.  And even then, many colors are more unstable than others.

I believe that Dorfan used Dupont "Duco" or "Ducolux" enamel paint for their production. I do not know if they were custom colors, or just off the shelf standard colors, but possibly the DuPont corporation might be able to answer that question, or even provide somthing that would give an idea of the correct colors. Just a thought.

Roland

Good point.  At one time, it was thought that "authentic colonial" colors were muted tones as featured in the early years of Colonial Willamsburg.  However, this was not the case as a more recent restoration at Mount Vernon has shown.  The colors are bright and vibrant, much like High Renaissance and Italian Baroque paintings -- not to mention IVES 1930 and Lionel nickel-trim production.