Munoz Lines II State of Disunion

Elliott: 

Where are you going?  What a shame to tear down the new Munoz Lines just when it was getting interesting.

Zac

I hope everything is ok.  Let us know where you settle.

Are you able to dismantle it in sections and move it with you?

I, too, hope all is well with you.

Wewll Done 

I hope you can save everything you've completed. Stunningly beautiful.

Hal

"Disunion" or dissolution?

Eliot

Good luck on your relocation, If you stay in Northeast and by chance land in LIRR territory your welcome to run on the TMB layout

Steve

Gorgeous scenery and detail........good luck on your move....

Peter

It's very nice having those glimpses of part of your layout. Thanks!

I miss our conversations at York. You were always a treat to talk with and get your perspectives on our hobby and life.

I do hope you do not wear yourselves out making such a big move. Pace yourselves. And be careful.

Respect and friendship,

FrankM

Gee, you just got there and finally got something built!  Where are you going this time?

The Fifty-first state, John. Confusion . . . . . LOL

My wonderful wife, Ginny, is retiring this June. The property taxes where we live are extremely high and going higher. The recent Federal tax changes will add an absolutely mountainous payment amount onto what is already high. Most people I talk to who have property tax payments over $10,000 do not really understand how much higher their payment will be. For every dollar one's property tax is over the $10,000 line, that person will lose a deduction they normally would have gotten. So if you are in a 25% tax bracket and your property taxes are $20,000, you will lose the deduction of $10,000 X .25%. $2,500 per year out of your pocket ! That is in addition to what you are already paying. 

The Federal government advertises that income tax cuts will offset this. NOT so. Sigh . . . . . 

So . . . . . . 

Off to Florida where property taxes are low enough to justify such a drastic move. Our pensions will not be taxed there. The difference in the tax structure is so great that we would save quite a lot of money. It's just those alligators . . . . 

My next basement layout will not be in the basement.

Makes sense, I didn't think about that.  One of the reasons we moved was to lower our property taxes and total expenses, so I can identify with that goal.

Scrapiron, I do not own a house yet,I have rented my who life. I am 51. I watched this happen to great modelers and there layouts. I am going to great lenths to right now to collect everything needed for my dream layout when I get retirement age. This will help in the fact that I will have most what I need to build it seeings how then I will most likely be on a fixed retirment income and will not be able to afford 500 engines and such.Even then I plan to go the modular route just in case I have to move for some reason then. This is a very good topic here. All of us die hard modelers could learn a lot from the situation you are facing. I struggle buying a home all the time for the same reasons you need to sell yours the high taxes. Untill I am sure where I want to live and retire I will just be happy with my small layout. It has been made modular also in that some day it will be incorporated into my dream layout. Good luck to you in florida. property taxes period should be done away with. I know several friends who move to either texas or florida because of there states hi property taxes. Btw I hope you can save most of your layout for the 3rd munoz lines. 

Lionelzwl2012 posted:

Scrapiron, I do not own a house yet,I have rented my who life. I am 51. I watched this happen to great modelers and there layouts.CThis will help in the fact that I will have most what I need to build it seeings how then I will most likely be on a fixed retirment income and will not be able to afford 500 engines and such.Even then I plan to go the modular route just in case I have to move for some reason then. This is a very good topic here. All of us die hard modelers could learn a lot from the situation you are facing. I struggle buying a home all the time for the same reasons you need to sell yours the high taxes. Untill I am sure where I want to live and retire I will just be happy with my small layout. It has been made modular also in that some day it will be incorporated into my dream layout. Good luck to you in florida. property taxes period should be done away with. I know several friends who move to either texas or florida because of there states hi property taxes. Btw I hope you can save most of your layout for the 3rd munoz lines. 

Hi Roger Glasko,

Don't wait for "retirement or for "some day".   A friend of mine is helping a widow go thru her late husband's train stuff.  The poor guy had been buying stuff for "some day" and died before he had chance to build his dream layout.  Once I heard this, some day or retirement became today.  

Scrap Iron, Sorry to hear that your Munoz Lines has to come down.  But look at it as a new opportunity to rebuild!  

Bill

Scrapiron Scher posted:

The Fifty-first state, John. Confusion . . . . . LOL

My wonderful wife, Ginny, is retiring this June. The property taxes where we live are extremely high and going higher. The recent Federal tax changes will add an absolutely mountainous payment amount onto what is already high. Most people I talk to who have property tax payments over $10,000 do not really understand how much higher their payment will be. For every dollar one's property tax is over the $10,000 line, that person will lose a deduction they normally would have gotten. So if you are in a 25% tax bracket and your property taxes are $20,000, you will lose the deduction of $10,000 X .25%. $2,500 per year out of your pocket ! That is in addition to what you are already paying. 

The Federal government advertises that income tax cuts will offset this. NOT so. Sigh . . . . . 

So . . . . . . 

Off to Florida where property taxes are low enough to justify such a drastic move. Our pensions will not be taxed there. The difference in the tax structure is so great that we would save quite a lot of money. It's just those alligators . . . . 

My next basement layout will not be in the basement.

 

Have you decided where in Florida?  Check out the Sarasota/Bradenton area.  Nice here. We have a house with an Big room upstairs, that’s my train room.

Elliott, I have always enjoyed the articles you have written on your layout over the years, I guess that this move will give you more opportunities to further your writing career.   Best wishes on you move and hope it all goes well!

Dave

I'm sorry to hear that you are having to move however, it is a smart move on your part (no pun intended).  I hope all turns out well for you and your better half in the future and now we can all look forward to a New Munoz Lines III.  Best of luck to you.

I hope that people understand what Eliot wrote about the new tax law,I have already experienced it in a very negative way and know where I stand for 2018 tax year and I live in Ca where taxes are high.I am not leaving though,our whole family is here and that is more important than the money.We can only Hope that there will be amendments to this new tax package After the 2020 elections.

Mike

Moving to avoid taxes I can see but moving to Florida is another thing. Taxes maybe lower but trust me in 3-5 years you will be so tired of the extreme heat you will move back north. Atleast 6 couples I know of moved to Florida moved back within 5 years mainly because of the heat but Hurricanes were another reason. 

I will never move because I love where I am, on the east coast near Philadelphia. Besides I love the four seasons, Christmas when it is 90%, I don't think so.

Good luck,

Dave

Btw, the tax bill was never meant for rich, it was for the low and middle class. The way it should be.

Dave

Most layouts are built on table sections and with some work they can be moved. The Munoz lines will live again.  Can understand the tax situation as we live in NJ, with the highest property taxes in the USA.  We pay over $12K/yr.   I look at what point in life we are at and reality is that we won't live forever.  At my age I have  1, 10, or maybe 15 years left at best. To move now would be a terrible inconvenience. Wherever you end up I wish you and Ginny the very best.  If you consider Hawaii;  even small houses there sell for $1 million+ and the cost of living is very high.  Good luck and thanks for sharing pictures of your wonderful layout with us.

DENNIS LAGRUA mentioned age being a factor in decisions about moving to new places.

To that factor, I would add considering the quality of medical care, which certainly includes the hospitals nearby, in any decision to move. I live in the NY-NJ area, and I can tell you from personal experience that I wouldn't want to move away from where I have lived in this area, for decades, now, not under any circumstances. The quality and depth of medical care available is seriously valuable.

FrankM

Elliot- best of luck with the move. Looking forward to seeing the new layout once you get settled.

Being on the slightly younger side (55), and living on Long Island, I can attest to how our high cost of living is. My property taxes alone are over $15K/ year. Our accountant says that we will not see a huge change next year but I'm sure our refund will go down. Retirement is still off in the distance for me but my first instinct is to re-locate out of NY but I'm sure that will vary depending on where our kids wind up. My in-laws are down the street from us and are happy where they are. Both in their early 80's and in good health, financially secure.

Everyone's situation is different and re-locating to a new state is a big decision. Enjoy!

Bob

Elliot,

Lots of regret about seeing your wonderful layout about to be dismantled. (Best NE corridor I've ever seen.) Much sage advice also. My wife and I are in our 70s and have considered a move from NJ near Giants stadium for traffic, congestion and etc. Always decide to stay put for several reasons but no. 1 is medical care as FrankM mentioned. Local hospital saved my life and has kept me going since 1999. We've built up a group of doctors we love and can work with which you can't put a price on. Also I really don't like change.

Listen to others but do what's best for you and your spouse. Looking forward to the next Munoz lines.

David

I live on 10 acres of land in Alabama, with a house built in 1989, and my property taxes are around $1100 a YEAR.  The new tax law is a good thing for me. 

Jeffrey

Well if saving $2,500 is so important to you, stop buying trains!!  Stay where you are and enjoy what you have.

Last time I checked this hobby was about enjoyment not taxes and politics. 

"Our pensions will not be taxed there. "

I believe pensions (although not 401k/403b accounts) and Social Security are not subject to NY State income tax, just for the record.

Good luck in your move.  Hopefully you will be nearer the people you love, which I consider the single most important reason for living anywhere, other things being reasonably equal.

david1 posted:

Btw, the tax bill was never meant for rich, it was for the low and middle class. The way it should be.

Dave

How does one point out the gross inaccuracy of this statement without turning this thread into a political debate?

"How does one point out the gross inaccuracy of this statement without turning this thread into a political debate?" 

Not possible to do so. Would just let it be, no matter the temptation.  I'm guessing no one really knows the precise consequences overall until the IRS issues a bunch of opinions and people actually file their taxes in 2019.  Eliot may be right or he may be wrong about the consequences for him. 

The US tax code (not that I'm any expert) is very complex.  Something like 1,200 pages I vaguely recall reading.  Would be nice if we could file our taxes on a postcard,  as in Latvia, or is that just rumor ?

 Elliot,

Speaking as one who has lived in several states (NY: including NYC, Long Island, Albany, Syracuse, and now the southern Adirondacks), CT, NJ, PA, TN, KY, GA & AZ), I will only say the grass is not always greener. In some of those states there were sales taxes on all groceries, doctors and dentist visits, and prescription drugs; in others yearly property taxes on automobiles, in another, car registrations were $840 per year! Then consider the availability of quality medical care - who knows when that will be needed.

My wife lived in FL a  number of years and found quality medical and nursing care for her late husband (Type 1 diabetes) was hard to find, the AC costs in the months April - October were astronomical, plus it was necessary to have her condo exterminated regularly. Our next door neighbors just moved to FL and are finding good medical care is hard to find, exterminator costs were something they hadn't planned on, plus the veterinarian's bills for their dog which regularly finds geckos to have for lunch.

Yes, i know property taxes in the Metro NY area are high, but do your homework carefully before moving elsewhere. Good luck.

Elliott,

Good luck with the move! Since I live near you, I certainly feel the pain of the property tax bill. Mine have almost doubled in the last 15 years since we bought the house. One thing I realized though was that I never actually got that tax deduction. I have paid AMT for over 15 years. The tax that was meant for the rich has hit me very hard. You lose all state and local deductions with the AMT, including property taxes. The new law raises the AMT limit enough to get me out of it, which should help a little, but those big property tax bills are still painful. I could move 15 miles north and reduce them by almost 75%!

George

Getting back to the trains, I wish you the best of luck in whatever you decide to go.  After working with you when you sold parts off your first layout, I only wish you will be able to build in what ever way you can in your new home, As it was for you a joy to get back to building again and like all of us here we have enjoyed the work you have done, So my only hope is that you will see this as anything but a opportunity to continue to build and enjoy the hobby and for me a chance to see you in Florida and see your new layout, My best wishes to a good friend

mike

Many thanks to all who added god wishes.

My brother has lived in the Jacksonville, FL area for about 30 years.  His family enjoys warm weather and great beaches year around.  The Jacksonville Mayo Clinic is close by.  Property taxes are low and so are basic living expenses.  There are many outstanding model railroaders in FL.  Most are transplants from the NE.  

On the down side, he has had to evacuate about 6 times because of hurricanes.  He has to carry expensive hurricane insurance.  Traffic on all the main roads is terrible.  I-95 is a parking lot much of the time.  The highway between Jacksonville and Orlando is just as bad.  Air conditioning is major expense.  

 Most homes, his included, do not have basements.  The only place for a model railroad in his home is the garage.  He has a HO layout in one half of his two car garage.  He is a member of a model railroad club so that he can run long trains.  I don't see how he could build a O 3RS layout in his house.  

I visited many model railroad during last year's NMRA convention in Orlando.  Most layouts were in garages and were in HO or N scale.  Several people built out buildings for their model railroads.  Only one owner had a basement.  One owner bought a second house in his neighborhood in which he built his model railroad.  

My brother and his wife are considering moving to one of the Carolinas because they are tired of evacuations and the other hassles of living in FL.  I don't know if this will happen.  Everyone needs to check out any place that they plan to move.  Sometimes the best place for you may be right where you are.

NH Joe

Joe,

Thanks for the great info !

Elliott:

Best of luck with your upcoming move!

Three and a half years ago, we were sort of in the same boat. We chose to move from a low income tax state (PA) to one of the highest (CA). Being a CPA I knew what to expect. I may be paying some additional taxes here, but the BIG BIG offset is now being close to four grandchildren - all under ten!

Giving up the large basement layout was tough. No basements here in CA.

Thanks to my amazing wife, my CA layout is in the living area of the house which is half the size of the PA house.

For details of how this all worked out - see my article in the current issue of OGRR  - Run 299 - just before your article.

Happy Railroading!

Best regards,

Stan

Interesting thread, thanks, all. 

I tried Florida (West Palm Beach area),  did not take to it.  Too hot and too crowded.

Consider coastal NC.   The Wilmington area is very nice.  Low property taxes and low state tax.   House prices are very reasonable if you are coming from the NYC Metro area.   

Good luck with your move.