Sad.   

SWC was a less desirable segment of our cross-country tour some years ago - due to poor service and not the scenery - but it was still better than any bus I've ridden.  

AMCDave posted:

I see Amtrak is threatening to make the SWC a train & bus route. From Dodge City to ABQ you'd be on a bus. Unless that bus has a roomette and full meal service....I will not ride again. This is really sad that we can't have decent train service. I have been riding the route of the SWC since my first trip in 1959.  Today other than car....Amtrak was my only way to travel. Who'd pay for a room when you have to get  off and ride a bus???  

All part of the plan by the current President of Amtrak to eliminate long distance passenger trains.

At one time, rail passenger service rail in the U.S. set the standard. Today it probably ranks near the very bottom when compared with the rest of the technologically advanced nations of the world. If you want to know who to blame, check the nearest mirror and then page through your family albums dating back to around the end of WWII.

Allan - I would push the "like" button, but your last sentence deserves applause.  Whatever happens to us as a nation, it is our fault.  We have the vote.

" If you want to know who to blame, check the nearest mirror "

Indeed.  Neither the voting public, nor our representatives in Congress have been keen on government investment in passenger train infrastructure, in general.  In Europe, where distances are shorter, automobiles substantially more expensive to operate, roads less suited to long distance driving, and most importantly, rail infrastructure is heavily government subsidized, passenger rail operates in a completely different ecology and with dramatically better, faster service.  We chose to have government invest in the interstate highway system and airports, and perhaps that was the right decision.  Long distance passenger trains are not competitive with air travel in convenience (particularly travel time) or even cost at present.

Barring a major advance in technology (e.g., Maglev and similar) that dramatically enhances speed, American passenger service for the long distance routes is probably on the road to complete extinction. One exception is interurban corridors (examples are Boston to Washington, SF to LA/SD). Given a future of automated,  robotic personal vehicles and an existing, paid for, largely terrific highway system it's hard to see how transcontinental passenger trains will ever again be competitive given the enormous cost of infrastructure and the painfully low speed over thousands of miles.  Ironic, given that automobiles and buses made by GM were the initial death knell to interurban rail. Now interurbans are the likely future of rail and urban travel, given that auto and bus travel in urban areas are painfully slow, frustrating and a source of tremendous, fatal air pollution. At least until the robotic vehicles start really taking over.

Delta threatened to leave Atlanta a few years ago with Richard Anderson as CEO (I believe) to gain a negotiating advantage....  Delta is still in Atlanta.

Two threads are going on this subject, started within a short time. The other thread said that only 363,272 passengers rode in 2017, and the track needs lots of money for maintenance and upgrades. People complain that our government should be run more like a business. Would a private business keep this line open?

Maybe the areas served by this run will kick in funds and save it.

C W Burfle posted:

Two threads are going on this subject, started within a short time. The other thread said that only 363,272 passengers rode in 2017, and the track needs lots of money for maintenance and upgrades.

To be fair, the line that "needs lots of money for maintenance and upgrades" is ONLY the portion over Raton Pass, which the BNSF no longer uses for freight trains. The only train/trains that operate over that line is the Amtrak Southwest Chief, so for obvious reasons, the BNSF doesn't want to spend THEIR money for just one Amtrak train. 

People complain that our government should be run more like a business. Would a private business keep this line open?

Maybe the areas served by this run will kick in funds and save it.

Want to see rail service flourish? 

Start riding it.

IC EC posted:

Delta threatened to leave Atlanta a few years ago with Richard Anderson as CEO (I believe) to gain a negotiating advantage....  Delta is still in Atlanta.

I'm sorry.....but what does this have to do with the price of tea in China?

The Delta ruse put BIG tax income dollars and local employment of hundreds+ people on the line.  Where's the equivalency to the SWC/route survival?? 

Long distance (left shore to right shore) rail passenger 'survival' is nothing more than stale candy in the annual Congressional budget piñata, and the topic of so much puffery for local politicians. 

Those of us 'tweeners' from Middle Earth USA have been a curiosity for decades when it comes to a viable business case for long distance rail passenger accommodations.  It wouldn't even surprise me if Uber could come up with a better solution fielding a fleet of Class A RV drivers/rigs...you know, a sort of Maxi-Taxi?

Ride 'em while you got 'em.  They're becoming the 'Woodies' of the national passenger railway system (AMTRAK) amusement park.  

Just MHO, mind you...

KD

Rule292 posted:

Want to see rail service flourish? 

Start riding it.

Wouldn't matter, as hauling passengers is a loosing business anyway. All passenger hauling operations in the world have to be government supported, since as a business, it looses money for ever single person riding.

dkdkrd posted:

IC EC posted:

Delta threatened to leave Atlanta a few years ago with Richard Anderson as CEO (I believe) to gain a negotiating advantage....  Delta is still in Atlanta.

I'm sorry.....but what does this have to do with the price of tea in China?

The Delta ruse put BIG tax income dollars and local employment of hundreds+ people on the line.  Where's the equivalency to the SWC/route survival?? 

Long distance (left shore to right shore) rail passenger 'survival' is nothing more than stale candy in the annual Congressional budget piñata, and the topic of so much puffery for local politicians. 

Those of us 'tweeners' from Middle Earth USA have been a curiosity for decades when it comes to a viable business case for long distance rail passenger accommodations.  It wouldn't even surprise me if Uber could come up with a better solution fielding a fleet of Class A RV drivers/rigs...you know, a sort of Maxi-Taxi?

Ride 'em while you got 'em.  They're becoming the 'Woodies' of the national passenger railway system (AMTRAK) amusement park.  

Just MHO, mind you...

KD

My point was based on Trainroomgary's post:

"At issue is a more than 219-mile stretch of track, most of which runs through Colfax County in New Mexico, that is owned by the BNSF Railway.

Amtrak is the sole user of the BNSF track between Jansen, Colo., near Trinidad, and the junction with the Rail Runner Express commuter train’s track south of Santa Fe and is entirely responsible for capital and maintenance costs for that stretch of track.

But Amtrak isn’t willing to pay for all of what it estimates to be between $30 million and $50 million of future expenses to keep the rail line up-to-date and serviceable. It wants Colfax County and BNSF to pitch in and is threatening to withhold its share of a matching grant if they don’t.

The Southwest Chief’s fate and funding have been a subject of debate for years. U.S. Sen. Martin Heinrich, D-N.M., says Amtrak has backtracked on the finances.

“The lack of transparency by Amtrak management about its changing position on the Southwest Chief is deeply troubling, particularly for a Government-Sponsored Enterprise entrusted with an important public transportation mission,” he said in a statement

Amtrak wants Colfax County, or someone, to pay $3 million annually to pay for operating costs."

Richard Anderson is now CEO of Amtrak and is trying to shift some of the financial burden to localities.  Threats are a good negotiating tactic--the Atlanta airport was unable to raise passenger facility fees as much as they wanted.  If the localities want continued Amtrak service, they will have to share some ($3 million) of the financial burden.  All US transportation is subsidized in some form or fashion (infrastructure, FAA, etc.).  Would Uber or trucking companies be profitable if they were solely responsible for the roadways they use?  Would the airlines be profitable if they were solely responsible for the FAA, airport facilities, ground and satellite based navigation, and the weather services?

Likely the entire concept of long distance rail travel in the USA is in jeopardy, if not presently, then eventually.

Case in point: I like trains. I have liked trains ever since I can remember. I have earned my living and retirement via railroading. However, I've only ridden ONE (Amtrak) passenger train in my adult life, and that a short overnight jaunt (Dallas to Texarkana and back) while on a vacation just to see what it was like.  (I've ridden psgr trains as a child but only have sketchy memories of same.)  Plus, I wanted the daughter and wife to experience train travel so they could say they've done it. It was "cool"... but only as a novelty.

No way on God's green earth would I EVER consider rail travel as a viable means of transportation for me and mine. No, the wife and I both treasure our freedom of movement, comfort, privacy, and spontaneity that automobile travel affords, especially over regions we travel the most. You are totally, and completely captive during rail travel (and its extended hours of transit).

IMHO, long distance rail travel has had its day, and unless some sort of reversal takes place, will continue to be on life support until someone in command higher up has the cajones to pull the plug and walk away.

As one that likes trains, it pains me to say the above, but I do feel it's a correct interpretation.

Andre

dkdkrd posted:

IC EC posted:

Delta threatened to leave Atlanta a few years ago with Richard Anderson as CEO (I believe) to gain a negotiating advantage....  Delta is still in Atlanta.

I'm sorry.....but what does this have to do with the price of tea in China?

KD

same CEO!

bigdodgetrain posted:

dkdkrd posted:

IC EC posted:

Delta threatened to leave Atlanta a few years ago with Richard Anderson as CEO (I believe) to gain a negotiating advantage....  Delta is still in Atlanta.

I'm sorry.....but what does this have to do with the price of tea in China?

KD

same CEO!

Yeah, so?

Different game of poker.  Different players in the game.

Atlanta, GA and their economic stakeholder called Delta Airlines is not the same as a relatively desolate, BNSF-owned, politically fragmented 219-mile stretch of track. 

Warren Buffet will play this game for many more years, I'd bet.  For him arguments like this boil down to...

...and a annual perpetual groveling at the feet of politicians, national or local, is a tough way to play the game.

Busing?   Probably so for a while, yet. 

Of course, Anderson could try an alternative form of 'bussing' with Buffet, et alia....the posterior-planted pucker type....if he really intended to solve this problem.

BTW...   Colfax County pay $3 million annually???  Just curious.....what is the total annual AMTRAK ridership contribution of Colfax County?  Seems like some basic arithmetic should be a part of this argument.  I mean, what's the sales pitch to the county taxpayers sound like?  (rhetorical question, I know.)  

Or is this just another altruistic boondoggle?  (rhetorical question, I know.)

I share Andre's comment above...."IMHO, long distance rail travel has had its day, and unless some sort of reversal takes place, will continue to be on life support until someone in command higher up has the cajones to pull the plug and walk away."

But, that's just MHO.

KD

Just ask me, I have ridden 12 long distance trains in the past 3 years.

eddie g posted:

Just ask me, I have ridden 12 long distance trains in the past 3 years.

Very nice, except you are riding them as a vacation. That's really all the current Amtrak long distance trains are for, i.e. a "vacation trip". I can't believe that there are THAT many people using Amtrak long distance trains as simply transportation, since they take way too long to get where one wants to go.

Thus, I really don't see why taxpayers should be supporting "land cruise" passenger trains. Now, the Northeast Corridor is a completely different business model, and should be seriously up-graded, with infrastructure improvements.

Seems like some basic arithmetic should be a part of this argument. 

Total ridership in 2017: 363,272. Raise the ticket price by 8.26, and you have your  3,000,000.

I believe the coach passengers on the long distance trains either can't afford to fly or there are no major airports where they have come from or going to.

eddie g posted:

I believe the coach passengers on the long distance trains either can't afford to fly or there are no major airports where they have come from or going to.

So,,,,,,,,,that's the taxpayers responsibility?

laming posted:

Likely the entire concept of long distance rail travel in the USA is in jeopardy, if not presently, then eventually.

Case in point: I like trains. I have liked trains ever since I can remember. I have earned my living and retirement via railroading. However, I've only ridden ONE (Amtrak) passenger train in my adult life, and that a short overnight jaunt (Dallas to Texarkana and back) while on a vacation just to see what it was like.  (I've ridden psgr trains as a child but only have sketchy memories of same.)  Plus, I wanted the daughter and wife to experience train travel so they could say they've done it. It was "cool"... but only as a novelty.

No way on God's green earth would I EVER consider rail travel as a viable means of transportation for me and mine. No, the wife and I both treasure our freedom of movement, comfort, privacy, and spontaneity that automobile travel affords, especially over regions we travel the most. You are totally, and completely captive during rail travel (and its extended hours of transit).

IMHO, long distance rail travel has had its day, and unless some sort of reversal takes place, will continue to be on life support until someone in command higher up has the cajones to pull the plug and walk away.

As one that likes trains, it pains me to say the above, but I do feel it's a correct interpretation.

Andre

Amtrak has been a political football for a long, long time, but as a quasi-government entity its existence is ultimately decided by "We the People," not Richard Anderson or "someone in command."  He , others, and the railroads are not helping, however.

Hot Water posted:

eddie g posted:

I believe the coach passengers on the long distance trains either can't afford to fly or there are no major airports where they have come from or going to.

So,,,,,,,,,that's the taxpayers responsibility?

Yes. And how about a level playing field? See the article below, for those who are ignorant of what is being paid to airlines by the taxpayer. And there's more than this, as well. Look up the Essential Air Service program. The government subsidies paid per passenger to the airlines on some airliine routes will floor you. Read this article.

"Consider the Essential Air Service program, which currently provides subsidies for airlines serving 163 rural communities nationwide. There’s also the Fly America Act, which since 1974 has required federal agencies to use U.S. air carriers to transport passengers and cargo when such travel is funded by the government.

And then there’s the bailout many have forgotten. In the aftermath of 9/11 and the grounding of commercial aircraft, Congress and President Bush put forth the Air Transportation Safety and Stabilization Act. Washington so quickly assisted the airlines that virtually nothing was asked in return, not even the quid pro quo of implementing the many passenger rights proposals put forth during that time.

The announcement earlier this summer that New York City’s LaGuardia Airport will undergo a major overhaul underscores how a “public-private partnership” to enhance airline infrastructure often involves funds from government agencies. For LaGuardia, New York Governor Cuomo said the $4 billion required for Phase I will be split among public and private entities. To be clear, I support such investment, just as I’ve also supported public investment in highways and rail. But while airlines demand “free markets,” they simultaneously have no trouble accepting government booty.

Finally, there’s the most lucrative of all government handouts: business grants and tax credits. What airline has said no to them?"

Hot Water posted:

AMCDave posted:

I see Amtrak is threatening to make the SWC a train & bus route. From Dodge City to ABQ you'd be on a bus. Unless that bus has a roomette and full meal service....I will not ride again. This is really sad that we can't have decent train service. I have been riding the route of the SWC since my first trip in 1959.  Today other than car....Amtrak was my only way to travel. Who'd pay for a room when you have to get  off and ride a bus???  

All part of the plan by the current President of Amtrak to eliminate long distance passenger trains.

It goes higher than that! See Trump's budget plan for 50% cuts in the Amtrak budget! The head of Amtrak is just following orders.

breezinup posted:

Hot Water posted:

AMCDave posted:

I see Amtrak is threatening to make the SWC a train & bus route. From Dodge City to ABQ you'd be on a bus. Unless that bus has a roomette and full meal service....I will not ride again. This is really sad that we can't have decent train service. I have been riding the route of the SWC since my first trip in 1959.  Today other than car....Amtrak was my only way to travel. Who'd pay for a room when you have to get  off and ride a bus???  

All part of the plan by the current President of Amtrak to eliminate long distance passenger trains.

It goes higher than that! See Trump's budget plan for 50% cuts in the Amtrak budget! The head of Amtrak is just following orders.

I certainly hope so! Just my opinion but, I see absolutely no need for these long distance passenger trains. In reality, they should be considered "land cruises", and let the folks who want that sort of vacation, pay for it (just like in Canada).

C W Burfle posted:

Seems like some basic arithmetic should be a part of this argument. 

Total ridership in 2017: 363,272. Raise the ticket price by 8.26, and you have your  3,000,000.

Hmmm....  Seems like that number is total ridership for the Southwest Chief, not Colfax county's (Raton) contribution.

But then if the projected maintenance costs at issue for the entire stretch of disputed track amount to $30-50,000,000, my arithmetic sez that would require raising ticket prices on average by about $137 to cover. 

Ouch.

How about the people that don't fly, No way can they eliminate the long distance trains. 

breezinup posted:

Hot Water posted:

AMCDave posted:

I see Amtrak is threatening to make the SWC a train & bus route. From Dodge City to ABQ you'd be on a bus. Unless that bus has a roomette and full meal service....I will not ride again. This is really sad that we can't have decent train service. I have been riding the route of the SWC since my first trip in 1959.  Today other than car....Amtrak was my only way to travel. Who'd pay for a room when you have to get  off and ride a bus???  

All part of the plan by the current President of Amtrak to eliminate long distance passenger trains.

It goes higher than that! See Trump's budget plan for 50% cuts in the Amtrak budget! The head of Amtrak is just following orders.

Why don't you and big kid take your politics somewhere else?

if I want politics I'll watch CNN or Fox.

Rule292 posted:

breezinup posted:

Hot Water posted:

AMCDave posted:

I see Amtrak is threatening to make the SWC a train & bus route. From Dodge City to ABQ you'd be on a bus. Unless that bus has a roomette and full meal service....I will not ride again. This is really sad that we can't have decent train service. I have been riding the route of the SWC since my first trip in 1959.  Today other than car....Amtrak was my only way to travel. Who'd pay for a room when you have to get  off and ride a bus???  

All part of the plan by the current President of Amtrak to eliminate long distance passenger trains.

It goes higher than that! See Trump's budget plan for 50% cuts in the Amtrak budget! The head of Amtrak is just following orders.

Why don't you and big kid take your politics somewhere else?

if I want politics I'll watch CNN or Fox.

if you believe this is not politics you need to wake up.

this post and this thread my go by by but that is the facts.

Hot Water posted:

Just my opinion but, I see absolutely no need for these long distance passenger trains. In reality, they should be considered "land cruises", and let the folks who want that sort of vacation, pay for it (just like in Canada).

A bigger picture:

Kelly Lynch
Vice President
Fort Wayne Railroad Historical Society, Inc.

I decided to take the train to the O Scale 50th Anniversary show in Rockville, MD in late August. I leave Omaha at 5;13 A.M. I have flown out of airports at 6 A.M. so this is no big deal. I get to Rockville about 1 PM the next day. For about $100.00 more I will arrive rested as I am taking a sleeper on the way out. Yes, I have the time to do this. Part of the problem is that we demand so much of our employees that they become so stressed on vacation that we must fly because time is so precious and because they demand that the employee checks in on computer each day, is available on the cell at all times, etc. Only one company I worked for said that you are on vacation because you need it. The office will be here when you get back.

Dick 

From the Chicago Tribune.

"But Richard Anderson, formerly of Delta Air Lines, who was appointed Amtrak CEO last July, clearly wants to kill off the long-distance trains. He complains that few passengers ride them end-to-end, as if passengers riding, say, from Chicago to Albuquerque, or even Naperville to Los Angeles don't count."

Hard to believe Anderson has such an ignorant view of Amtrak's function. There has been much written about the importance of the long distance trains to provide intermediate travel to unserved transportation markets.

"One example: A number of years ago there was a move to eliminate the Texas Eagle, the train that runs from Chicago to St. Louis to Dallas and Ft. Worth to San Antonio (where it meets the Sunset Limited, which goes on to LA, and New Orleans). Folks in smaller towns along the route (I knew some of the organizers in several East Texas towns) went on the warpath, and organized groups to get after their Congressional representatives to put a halt to the cancellation plan. A mayor in one to the towns became fairly well known for her work in spearheading the East Texas effort. Obviously these efforts were successful, and the Eagle was saved.

As they argued, most of these smaller towns are not served with any kind of air service, and other than travelling by car, they are cut off from the world without the train. Some of their residents can't drive, for whatever reason, and many of those who can don't want to - or can't - drive long distances, and for them they're isolated without the train service. Understand that many of the folks in these towns don't necessarily ride the train long distances, but they may often ride it a hundred or two hundred miles to get to the nearest large city, which they may want to do to get medical attention, go shopping, see friends and relatives, or whatever. 

Long distance trains aren't just for riders who are traveling long distances. Riders come and go at all the stops along the way. Of course, all this is could be out the window with the Trump administration's proposed elimination of all long distance Amtrak passenger train service. There will no doubt be a fight, if the proposal even gets any serious consideration. As many are aware, if enacted, hundreds of small communities across the United States would lose their last means of low cost public transportation to the outside world."