My Menard's Morton Salt building takes about 0.7 maximum Amps DC at 4.5 VDC to illuminate.

Finally.  Real world data!  

IIRC you have that eBay DC digital volt/amp meter module on your regulator output?  Would it be practical for you to crawl under the layout and lower the voltage to, say, 4.3 and 4.1 Volts (i.e., a couple other data points) and re-measure the current? 

And when you lower the voltage, do the LEDs dim?  Do the blinking reds stop?  How does the animated sign behave?

cjack posted:

 The ammeter shows about 0.7 amps dc. It varies a little with the sign blinking, but that's the maximum.

The math works out on that reading as well. 31 LED bulbs which I'll assume are drawing 20 mA a piece comes to 620 mA. Throw in the sign and 700 mA or a little more doesn't sound unreasonable.

Ok...as best I could do quickly, the LEDs look just about as bright down to 4 vdc and the sign continues to flash just about as brightly. Very subjective but at least adequate brightness there. The current is about 0.4 amps or so then. I would guess the current is fairly linearly changing between those two points, 4 and 4.5 volts. As I turned the voltage lower, the LEDs just got dimmer and the sign quit. The volt meter does not play well below 4 vdc...so no readings there.

So, you are not using a Menards power supply, correct? Do we know what the real max amps a Menards 1000ma power supply can put out? Sometimes those power packs need 30% headroom, which puts you right at .7 amps. Also, based on your tests, it would seem the current draw would be higher if the voltage was higher. So, if the voltage was actually 4.7volts, then the building may draw .8 or .9 amps, correct?

George

Yup, I now see that thread has been closed.   Apparently the court of public opinion has rendered its verdict on the Morton Salt case.  Asked-and-answered, case-closed, no double-jeopardy.   Fair enough.

So summarizing albeit for your sample of 1:

Nominally 4.5 Volts @ 0.7A = 3.2 Watts 

And "smooth" behavior down to:

4.0V @ 0.4 Amps = 1.6 Watts.  

Anyway, sorry to drag you down into the minutiae but thanks for the additional measurements.

Correct on all . I use switching supplies which are regulated and adjustable. The plug in the wall supplies are generally a mystery. I don't have any data on the Menards power supplies. And yes, 5 vdc would maybe be up to an amp. That's a thought...maybe that would cause a regulated wall supply to oscillate.

I hate to muddy the water, however my readings are almost double Chuck's.  At 4.5 volts I read 1.44 amps.  At 4 volts I read 1.88 amps.  These readings are with the sign and flashing LED's full on ( no animation).  With the sign animated and LED's flashing the readings vary from a high of 1.35 to a low of .95 @ 4.5V.  Lights flicker and animation functions deteriorate below 3.8 volts.

I am using  regulated 12V DC (computer power supply) for DC power on my layout.  I am stepping down to 4.5 volts using an LM2596 module.

I attempted to power the building off a 1000 MA wall wart supply on my work bench and it flickered badly.  I then upped to a 1.67A laptop supply and it worked as advertised.

I do not use Menard's adapters so can't really speculate on their characteristics.

Bruce

Interesting that the readings would be so different for the same building.

Flashing LEDs? Mine are just steady. There is a possibility that a steady sign might give a better reading of the max current. I am surprised that it could be double amps though. Also curious that the current goes up when the voltage goes down. I guess you used that meter shown to measure the current. Have you verified it’s accuracy in any way?

The two red LED's on the top of my building flash when the Morton Salt signs are animated and are on steady when they are not.

I have a a couple of the cheap HF meters that I used to double check the Phillips.  They all measured between 1.42 and 1.47.

I'm no electrical expert, however I believe amps go up as voltage is reduced.  Don't hold me to that.

Sometime tomorrow I will pull the 4 JST LED connectors and see what the sign alone draws.  They look to come out fairly easily, however there is not much working room to re-seat them.

Bruce

You need to pull the power from the Miller sign power module, is that what you're talking about?

gunrunnerjohn posted:

You need to pull the power from the Miller sign power module, is that what you're talking about?

Not really.  The various strings of LED's in the building are connected via JST connectors to the power board. All of the LED lighting can be disconnected leaving just the sign powered.  I can then measure just the current draw of the Miller sign.

The Miller sign controller is integrated into the board and the two signs are connected via a ribbon cable to the board.  The barrel connector power is hard wired to the Miller module and cannot be disconnected.  If you disconnect all of the LED's and the sign ribbon cable the building is totally dark, however you can still hear the high frequency whine of the sign sequencer.

I'm really just curious how much current the sign is using.  Once I measure that I can reconnect the strings of LED's one by one and determine the current draw of each.

Kind of confusing to explain unless you have the building in front of you.  Looks like the board is just glued to the floor so I may try to work it loose and get a better look at its layout.

Bruce

BruceT47 posted:

I hate to muddy the water, however my readings are almost double Chuck's.  At 4.5 volts I read 1.44 amps.  At 4 volts I read 1.88 amps.  These readings are with the sign and flashing LED's full on ( no animation).  With the sign animated and LED's flashing the readings vary from a high of 1.35 to a low of .95 @ 4.5V.  Lights flicker and animation functions deteriorate below 3.8 volts.

Good. More real world data. 

4.5V @ 1.44A = 6.5 Watts vs. 3.2 Watts (Chuck)

4.0V @ 1.88A = 7.5 Watts vs. 1.6 Watts (Chuck)

Did Menards make different versions of the O-gauge Morton building?  I believe they have an HO or smaller sized Morton but I'm assuming all discussions to date have been about the same O-gauge version.  Is there any way to find out if Menards changed the electronics?  Chuck's is behaving like a conventional linear circuit.  Bruce's is behaving somewhat like a switchmode-circuit drawing somewhat constant power as the input voltage changes (hence, current goes UP as voltage goes DOWN).

There was a recent thread about the audible "whine" in the EL inverter circuit.  Here's one photo from that thread which might be a useful starting point to identify which connectors, cables, whatever can or can't be removed.  It's not obvious to me how the circuit is partitioned - in other words what can be turned off with a switch, what requires pulling a cable, cutting a wire, etc.  If I understand what the OP says in the thread, pulling the cable to the sign did not stop the whine.  In other words, the DC-to-AC inverter circuit still runs (and whines).  It would be interesting to know how much power the DC-to-AC inverter requires with and without the sign connected; but I don't if this is practical to measure.

BruceT47 posted:

...

I am using  regulated 12V DC (computer power supply) for DC power on my layout.  I am stepping down to 4.5 volts using an LM2596 module.

I attempted to power the building off a 1000 MA wall wart supply on my work bench and it flickered badly.  I then upped to a 1.67A laptop supply and it worked as advertised.

 

 What was the voltage of the 1000 mA wall-wart and 1.67A laptop supply?

Stan,

 What was the voltage of the 1000 mA wall-wart and 1.67A laptop supply?   12V reduced to 4.5 via LM2596.

I removed the board last night with little effort.  A small dab of glue in the center held it in.  A bit of prying with an X-Acto shovel blade broke it loose.  (Caution...yours may vary).

Pictures of the front of the board show the four JST LED connectors on the right.  The input power barrel jack and the second JST input jack bottom right.  The sign sequence control switch bottom left. The sign(s) 7 pin ribbon connector upper center and various components that control the magic.

The bottom of the board is self explanatory with some manufacturing data visible.

All outputs are 4.5 volts.  A picture of the strip LED's is attached.  After closer examination these are single LED's with resistor which explains why they light at 4.5 volts.

Some numbers.  The board idle, all connections detached, and only the whine audible draws .10 amps.  Add the ribbon connector to the signs and the draw is .98 amps.  One of the LED segments draws .2 amps.  Two of the segments draw .1 amp each.  One segment draws .05 amp - these are the flashing red LED's on top of the building.  These numbers added together are my approximate total current draw of 1.44 amp.

The sign draw of 980 MA is about 10 times what Miller states on their website.  We are driving two signs here instead of one, however this still seems way out of line.  That may explain the discrepancy between Chuck's and my measurements.  Perhaps they changed the design of the sign module in later buildings.  My building was delivered in December 2017.

I have a free standing Miller billboard on my layout with what appears to be the exact same control module.  It's not real easy to get to, however I'll try to get a current measurement in the next day or so.

Hope this helps.

Bruce

BruceT47 posted:

What was the voltage of the 1000 mA wall-wart and 1.67A laptop supply?   12V reduced to 4.5 via LM2596.

 A 12V 1000mA wall-wart can supply 12 Watts.  The LM2596 module is a switchmode  converter which should have at least 75% efficiency at that point...so an output of at least 9 Watts (or 2 Amps) at 4.5V.  So for it to struggle at 6.5 Watts (1.44 Amps) is curious.  But that's just a side-show.  Bigger fish to fry!

The bottom of the board is self explanatory with some manufacturing data visible.

That white-area on the back of the board indicates the high-voltage region that has the ~100V AC sign voltage.  I won't ask you or anyone else to make high-voltage measurements on a powered board.  But be mindful if mucking around with power applied!

It appears this board has been repaired or manually re-worked with solder splashes left behind.  Could mean many things - but was the first thing I noticed.

It's also clear that there has been at least 1 revision to the electronics.  I take it your building does NOT have the 2nd board as in the other thread?  The connectors to the LEDs also have a different spacing; your board is 4 all bunched together.

All outputs are 4.5 volts.  A picture of the strip LED's is attached.  After closer examination these are single LED's with resistor which explains why they light at 4.5 volts.

Some numbers.  The board idle, all connections detached, and only the whine audible draws .10 amps.  Add the ribbon connector to the signs and the draw is .98 amps.  One of the LED segments draws .2 amps.  Two of the segments draw .1 amp each.  One segment draws .05 amp - these are the flashing red LED's on top of the building.  These numbers added together are my approximate total current draw of 1.44 amp.

Your LED strip photo shows an 8-LED strip.  Was this the 0.1A segment or the 0.2A segment?  So are there 2 types of segments, one being twice as long (twice as many LEDs)?  In any case, the LED numbers seem in-line.

The proverbial smoking-gun is clearly the sign power.  So by attaching the sign cable the input current increases 0.88A or a whopping 4 Watts.  I believe this was with the signs solid-on (not animated) which I gather from your and Chuck's measurements when the current is highest.  That is, when animated the power drops and bounces around based on what the animation is doing.  

I have a free standing Miller billboard on my layout with what appears to be the exact same control module.  It's not real easy to get to, however I'll try to get a current measurement in the next day or so.

 

This will be interesting.  Can you confirm the size of the Menards sign(s) and the Miller sign is the same?  Are they similarly bright?  Does the Menards sign feel materially warmer than the Miller sign.  The 4 Watts in the Menards signs is going somewhere!  The EL panels are, in one way of looking at it, just capacitors proportional to the area of illumination.  Double the area, double the power.  A definite case where size-matters!  

BTW, great job pulling together the data! 

The key to this discussion needs to be on sign power.  But Bruce's photo on the strip lights brings up something relevant to DIY LED lighting for buildings or even passenger cars.  I'm pretty certain those are just standard off-the-shelf 5V LED strips being operated at 4.5V.

So like the 12V strips popular for passenger car lighting, you just buy rolls of 5V strips (again for pennies per LED) and cut the strips to length.  Each section has 1 LED and 1 resistor (typically 100 ohms).   This is not the most efficient use of power since ~35% of power is wasted in the resistor (~20% wasted in 12V strips) but obviously practical as 5V DC is commonly available as evidenced by the USB connector already attached to the strip!  Plug-and-play to say the least!

So while it's easy to derive 12V DC on train layouts from 14-16V AC accessory voltage or from low-cost 12V DC wall-warts, a potential application would be in passenger cars for CONVENTIONAL operation.  In other threads I've shown the use of so-called buck-boost DC-to-DC converters which can provide the ~12V DC to drive 12V strips even for lower conventional track voltages.  The 5V strips would allow a simpler, lower-cost DC-to-DC converter for constant-brightness rolling-stock; that is, you'd always be reducing the incoming voltage rather than sometime reducing and sometime increasing.  If anyone is interested this should probably be started as a separate topic in the Electrical forum though.

Thanks Stan!

It appears this board has been repaired or manually re-worked with solder splashes left behind.  Could mean many things - but was the first thing I noticed.

I believe you're seeing glue residue that I didn't fully remove.

It's also clear that there has been at least 1 revision to the electronics.  I take it your building does NOT have the 2nd board as in the other thread?  The connectors to the LEDs also have a different spacing; your board is 4 all bunched together.

Correct.  There is only one board.  Definitely different than the one in previous post.

Your LED strip photo shows an 8-LED strip.  Was this the 0.1A segment or the 0.2A segment?  So are there 2 types of segments, one being twice as long (twice as many LEDs)?  In any case, the LED numbers seem in-line.

Correct.  There are various segments drawing different current.  This was just representative of the type of LEDs used on my building.  

The proverbial smoking-gun is clearly the sign power.  So by attaching the sign cable the input current increases 0.88A or a whopping 4 Watts.  I believe this was with the signs solid-on (not animated) which I gather from your and Chuck's measurements when the current is highest.  That is, when animated the power drops and bounces around based on what the animation is doing.  

Correct.

This will be interesting.  Can you confirm the size of the Menards sign(s) and the Miller sign is the same?  Are they similarly bright?  Does the Menards sign feel materially warmer than the Miller sign.  The 4 Watts in the Menards signs is going somewhere!  The EL panels are, in one way of looking at it, just capacitors proportional to the area of illumination.  Double the area, double the power.  A definite case where size-matters!  

I took a look and the signs are not identical.  The controller looks the same, however the one on my layout (Streaming U.S. flag) has a 6 wire ribbon.  The Salt building has a 7 wire ribbon.  I hadn't noticed before that the Salt building has two ribbons paralleled from the connector.  Obviously one going to each sign.  There is not much heat being generated from either sign or controller.  I don't have an infrared thermometer which would come in handy here.

My Granddaughter dropped by so I sent her under the layout to help out with measuring the current of Old Glory.  On steady it measures .15 amp.  Animated it varies between .05 and .18.  A bit higher than the 95 MA specification on the Miller site.

Perhaps my building is an anomaly, perhaps not.  I do feel that Menard's needs to start providing an accurate electrical specification with their products. 

Bruce

BruceT47 posted:

...

It's also clear that there has been at least 1 revision to the electronics.  I take it your building does NOT have the 2nd board as in the other thread?  The connectors to the LEDs also have a different spacing; your board is 4 all bunched together.

Correct.  There is only one board.  Definitely different than the one in previous post.

Hmm, different electronics is a fly in the ointment.  Difficult to say how to proceed since I can't see asking most guys to inspect the guts of their buildings to identify which version of electronics is in there.  We could be at a dead-end with the path of least resistance to just use a bigger adapter if your lights flicker.

...

This will be interesting.  Can you confirm the size of the Menards sign(s) and the Miller sign is the same?  Are they similarly bright?  Does the Menards sign feel materially warmer than the Miller sign.  The 4 Watts in the Menards signs is going somewhere!  The EL panels are, in one way of looking at it, just capacitors proportional to the area of illumination.  Double the area, double the power.  A definite case where size-matters!  

I took a look and the signs are not identical.  The controller looks the same, however the one on my layout (Streaming U.S. flag) has a 6 wire ribbon.  The Salt building has a 7 wire ribbon.  I hadn't noticed before that the Salt building has two ribbons paralleled from the connector.  Obviously one going to each sign.  There is not much heat being generated from either sign or controller.  I don't have an infrared thermometer which would come in handy here.

Oh.  I thought you had the similar separate Miller Morton sign.  So I realize it will be difficult to measure but can you estimate the amount of lighting area between your sign and the Menards sign.  The power should be proportional to the lighted surface area.  I realize al those individual salt flecks makes it impractical to estimate area but looking for a round number.  If nothing else, one could guess-timate the total illumination of the different signs...but again I realize very difficult and subjective.

That's really curious that you don't feel the heat.  4 Watts (presumably equally split 2 Watts per sign) is a LOT of power that is going somewhere!

My Granddaughter dropped by so I sent her under the layout to help out with measuring the current of Old Glory.  On steady it measures .15 amp.  Animated it varies between .05 and .18.  A bit higher than the 95 MA specification on the Miller site.

But still only about 1/3rd that of the Menards sign.  I don't think your Menards building is an anomaly since other guys have required the 2000mA adapter to stop the flickering.  

If your granddaughter is still around perhaps she can use her young eyes to read off the lettering on the magic chip on the Menards controller board.  Probably 2 or 3 lines of cryptic letters and number...

BruceT47 posted:

 

My Granddaughter dropped by so I sent her under the layout to help out with measuring the current of Old Glory.  On steady it measures .15 amp.  Animated it varies between .05 and .18.  A bit higher than the 95 MA specification on the Miller site.

Perhaps my building is an anomaly, perhaps not.  I do feel that Menard's needs to start providing an accurate electrical specification with their products. 

Bruce

That seems like a mistake on the Miller website that the signs draw 95ma. Miller makes a large variety of signs in many different sizes and ranges of complexity. Some are small HO gauge and some are huge O gauge with lots of animation. Wouldn't the current draw increase with the size and complexity of the sign? Also, they use the words "up to" when stating how many signs their power packs and controllers can support. If all the signs drew the same current, then they could be precise. Of interest, they don't really state the power rating in milliamps for their power packs.

I am glad that you guys determined that the Menards sign is different than the Miller signs. I was confused by statements that said Menards was using Miller signs.

George

George S posted:

I am glad that you guys determined that the Menards sign is different than the Miller signs. I was confused by statements that said Menards was using Miller signs.

George

George,

Not sure how you got that conclusion.  The Menard's sign appears to be a Miller sign.  The quandary is the power requirements are not consistent and causing some folks problems.  

Menard's is still showing on their website the 1000 MA adapter as adequate power for the building.  This adapter will work for some, but not all. 

The 2000 MA adapter has been indicated to solve light flickering issues.  In fairness it is listed as a second purchase option.

Hopefully Menard's will correct this and everyone will enjoy steady lighting.

Bruce

BruceT47 posted:

George S posted:

I am glad that you guys determined that the Menards sign is different than the Miller signs. I was confused by statements that said Menards was using Miller signs.

George

George,

Not sure how you got that conclusion.  The Menard's sign appears to be a Miller sign.  The quandary is the power requirements are not consistent and causing some folks problems.  

 

Bruce

Oh, just because you guys started referring to it as the "Menards sign" vs the "Miller sign" and because the driver was different than the Miller sign driver. No matter. It would still be one of Miller's larger signs.

Interesting that there may be two different versions, and one needs more power. Mark did not explain why the website said the 1000ma PS was sufficient, yet he was adamant it needed at least a 2000ma PS.

George

You nerds should go play without trains instead of trying to fix other people’s not broken ones. I do find this conversation interesting and informative you’re a bunch of goofballs. :-)

You lost me after "4.5 Volts DC output" 

Matt Makens posted:

You nerds should go play without trains instead of trying to fix other people’s not broken ones

No Matt, they are breaking their own toys to try to fix someone's not broken one!

Where else can you get entertainment like this?

George

George, like I said before, there's nothing wrong with the building its the wall wart

Matt Makens posted:

You nerds should go play without trains instead of trying to fix other people’s not broken ones. I do find this conversation interesting and informative you’re a bunch of goofballs. :-)

Always a pleasure to see your kind words!

Goofball Bruce

 

No Matt, they are breaking their own toys to try to fix someone's not broken one!

Where else can you get entertainment like this?

George

Nothing broken that I know of.  Building is back on the layout pouring salt.  Glad you enjoyed!

Bruce

And you guys never took something apart to see exactly how it worked? 

Are your trains are idle while salting wounds? 

My trains are usually running while I read .

I just can't chew gum or pat the top of my head when I do it  

   I've found these threads kinda interesting. Too bad the rampant fear of bashing seems to have outweighed the group effort at a definitive answer as to "how much is enough" to make a product work correctly... especially when it's printed instructions are flawed. 

   Info moves the hobby forward, It is just sad when I see it vanish because it isn't all "great news". 

No offense meant. Just having a little fun. This thread was way better and more informative than the thread that had to be shutdown. I'm glad no train accessories were harmed in the process.

And yes, I do take things apart to see how they work. I broke a few, kit bashed a few, and ended up with the eventual screw left over where I had to say, "hmmm, where did that come from?" Now I take pictures of my disassembly process so I can remember how to put it back together.

George

It’s all in good fun, just a poke at the these guys from the other thread. It had curiosity going too

You guys get them assembled again? That's 'one up' on me at times  

My basement looks like a model train factory blew up down there. My Menards buildings are the only things that do work right now 

As an additional check after seeing the high current results, I switched the blinking sign and top LEDs to be on all the time and read about 0.73 Amps DC at 4.5 VDC. I normally run this supply and volt/amp meter combo with an additional load of 4 Miller signs. With the Menards salt building and the 4 Miller signs, the total current is about 1.05 Amps  DC. That's with a lot of blinking going on, but that seems to be the max reading that I see.

When I built these switching supply/volt/amp meter combos (all from ebay/china) I adjusted the volt and amp setting on the meters with a Fluke 87 multimeter. So the readings are all good to say 5% of a Fluke 87.

cjack posted:

As an additional check after seeing the high current results, I switched the blinking sign and top LEDs to be on all the time and read about 0.73 Amps DC at 4.5 VDC. I normally run this supply and volt/amp meter combo with an additional load of 4 Miller signs. With the Menards salt building and the 4 Miller signs, the total current is about 1.05 Amps  DC. That's with a lot of blinking going on, but that seems to be the max reading that I see.

 

Your layout power bill will be a lot lower than mine. 

Bruce

cjack posted:

As an additional check after seeing the high current results, I switched the blinking sign and top LEDs to be on all the time and read about 0.73 Amps DC at 4.5 VDC. I normally run this supply and volt/amp meter combo with an additional load of 4 Miller signs. With the Menards salt building and the 4 Miller signs, the total current is about 1.05 Amps  DC. That's with a lot of blinking going on, but that seems to be the max reading that I see.

So adding 4 Miller signs increased current by 0.32 Amps (from 0.73A to 1.05A).  80mA per sign.  Your mileage may vary.

I was hoping to learn more about what's under the hood to help guys address issues that have come up in other OGR threads such as how to dim the lighting, or what to do about the sign "whine", how to power buildings using Accessory AC, and so on. 

I still believe there are more layers of the onion to uncover with the lighting electronics in the Menards buildings but the majority of recent responses indicates this line of inquiry has run its course.  I think I can hear the fat lady singing.