My Sunset FP-7's arrived yesterday

Very nice looking George!  Thanks for sharing the photos.  I hope to have PRR ones to post soon.

They are beauties.  The PRR E7 A's I have also suffer from the ladder stuck to the truck. But the other annoying thing was the Pilot is wrong.  yes and Dare I say I need to do some Modeling and replace them with PRR specific versions.

Mike - Scott had the builder put straight so-called "passenger" pilots on the PRR FP7's - wish we had them to retrofit to the E7's.  One critical performance improvement is that they have all wheel pickup.  A big visual improvement is that the cab bulkhead is behind the side door.  No China drive - no motor shield intruding into the detailed cab - yea!

 

Ed Rappe 

I'll have to ask our East Coast rep if they cast a few extra for us.  I'd gladly unscrew and  trade them painted or not.  

 

Butch, Speakers are under the cab of each power A.  I turned my down with the magic wand.  Not having the china drive is great but at NYSME they all got benched because they ran too slow. I don't mind the speed but it is what it is.  I'd rather argue, if runs too fast it should be benched as they are more of a hazard on the layout than the GDD E7 being too slow.

Do the FP-7's have sound and if so where is the speaker placed. It obviously doesn't force the rear cab bulkhead forward like it does on the E7's? We got away from the motor shield in the cab by losing the China Drive, but the speaker placement in the E7's has always been an enigma to me. 

 

 

Nice looking FP-7's by the way. 

 

 

Butch

I received my DGLE FP7 yesterday. First I have to say the Brunswick Green paint color is really nice, actually a bit darker than on the E7! When testing it I found the same slow speed characteristics as on the E7. Speed step 1 is less than walking speed. I haven't the chance to stretch her legs yet.

Yes the sound is monstrous when first fired up. I used the magic wand as a temporary reset, but will change the master volume CV.

All wheel pickup is a nice upgrade and will be very welcome on the dozens of turnouts we have at the club.

Details are pretty darn good and excluding the truck mounted steps quite accurate for a PRR version, down to the auxilliary external water tank.

 

Here's a photo:

 

 

The FP7 top end is noticeably faster than the Sunset 3rd Rail E7.  I don't know if they used the same motor and drive train ratios in the FP7 as they in the E7, but if they are identical the FP7 should be about 11% faster than the E7 just by virtue of it running on 40" wheels vs. the 36" ones on the E7.  As delivered the momentum setting is very high so there is a lot of throttle lag.  Prototypical but it takes getting used to.  I expect there is a setting to adjust it downward if desired.

 

I agree with Chris - the DGLE color and sheen is much nicer on the FP7 than on the E7. 

 

Continued incremental progress.. 

 

Next up I'd like to see 3rd Rail use different width truck bolsters for future 2 and 3 rail models (including tender trucks). They are only a one piece stamping.   That way the side frames on 2 rail models could be mounted closer to the wheel face, and on diesels it would enable trucks to swing clear of body mounted cab steps. 

 

 

Ed Rappe 

A lot of loco for the money. SS/3rd Rail just keeps getting better and better.  

 

Butch

Any ideas on how to body mount those steps?

Ed

Any body recieve one of these in the ACL colors,pics?

Ed

 

I'd be thinking about replacing the cab steps with plastic ones from P&D.  I'd propose to use a pair of short vertical wire aligning pins for each step.  Relatively shallow wire sized holes would be drilled into bottom edge of the body and the top of the step side.  CA would be used to bond the step, pins, and body.  Anyone have another approach?

 

Ed Rappe

Nice looking units, George.

Ed,

having had the shell off mine (to fix a buzzing speaker), the shell along the lower edge is a little thin. perhaps an alternative method would be to affix the steps to the deck at the edge. a 'step' may have to be cut into the steps (no pun intended) for it to clear the rolled edge of the deck. further inspection should reveal if this is plausible.

 

Those look really nice.

If I understand Chris's approach that's what I plan to do with my E-7. Cut the step off the truck and affix them to the bottom of the frame. Spacing would be important to eliminate any gaps.  

 

I first thought about this with a set of Lionel scale F-3's that have this same issue (pivoting steps) and I even looked into attaching the P&D steps to the frame which would work. 

 

But, I haven't attempted either, so now I have choices. But one thing is for sure, as nice as the truck mounted steps fit on the GD locos compared to Lionel's, they need to be hard mounted. 

 

Butch

 

 

If you want fixed cab stirrups for the FP7 then right now, like today, is the time to email Scott with the request.  I have asked him about making additional fixed stirrups for my E7s and he said he would ask the builder while he is there, like he is now.  They are redoing the wheels on the 3-rail ones right now so now is the time.

"The FP7 top end is noticeably faster than the Sunset 3rd Rail E7."

 

Ed, what is the speed difference at, say, 12V running light?  If it's not too much trouble, do you mind "looking under the hood" to find out whether the motors and gear ratios are the same?  I ordered one of the FP7's and I would love to know.

Thanks,

Ted

Sorry Ted I don't have the time to work with the FP7's right now as my top priority is  installing DCC sound decoders in several locomotives waiting on the workbench.  My observation of the FP7 run was on a friends DC layout, while the E7's are running on my 16v DCC railroad.  I'll stick with my assertion that the FP7's are faster but it would be difficult to quantify it on a workbench test track because it took a very long time (and distance) for the FP7 to reach full speed due to their momentum setup. 

 

Perhaps someone with both locomotives could run a time trial.

 

Ed Rappe

 

 

Guys, It is really nice to read your comments.

 

1. The gear ratio is the same from the E7, to FL9 to the FP7s, but the wheels are larger on the FP7s. So they go faster.

2. Danny discovered that the speaker buzzing is caused by 2 things, A. the E clip locking the bolster pin, likes to vibrate along with the music. B. sometimes the metal vent panels on the sides of the loco start buzzing. Suggestions please.

I hear what you are saying about making separate steps available. I will ask if these can be produced, but they have quite a lot of work ahead of the New Year coming Jan 30th. So it probably won't happen until Feb or March.

 

The 3R FP7s just arrived here, and next week they will be changing the axles out, correcting our problem.

 

The B&O Columbian cars, 1938 Broadway cars and PRR Horse, Theater and BM70M cars are all under construction.

 

I am in the middle of inspecting the AC9s as well. A few adjustments and they will be ready to go.

 

More in an update next week. Thanks to those of you whose input, continues to make these models better each time. It's not just me or the factory, but you too.

 

Scott Mann

Scott,

For what it's worth, I found the speaker buzzing on my unit to be caused by metal shavings (from the assembly process I assume) that had been drawn to the speaker's surface by magnetism, then danced around on that surface as the speaker vibrated.

When I removed the speaker from it's hold-down bracket, I used the magnetic magic wand, which is quite powerful (must be rare earth), to remove the shavings from the speaker and any stray pieces on the deck. After reinstalling the speaker the sound was nice and clear.

 

I am very happy with the model and am quite pleased with the new rendition of Brunswick Green.

Scott,

Don't forget steps for the buyers of the E-7's.

Ed

I would definitely pay for fixed steps that are engineered to be retro-fitted to my E-7's rather than whatever Rube Goldberg setup I could come up with.

 

Butch

Did Atlas body mount the steps on their F-3s' or attach the steps to the trucks?

Ed

Today we will have our design meeting and I will bring up the truck mounted steps. If possible we will have body mounted steps on the FTs. Possibly separate parts in the box so they don't break in shipping.

 

We are also looking into battery compartments so that customers can remove them more easily.

 

I also want to redesign Shorter Coil Couplers for future Diesel projects.

 

I stress at each meeting to make all models be compatible with 2R Kadees.

 

Thanks for all your input.

 

Scott Mann - China

 

WOW now that's NicE!

I can't wait for my 3 rail tuscan ones!

While not sunset, the premise is identical.  Cut the metal step off the truck and screw onto the metal frame works.  Below is what I've done to a converted MTH E-8.  I'd look to do something similar to my E-7s when they come off the layout.  And likely, I'll have to also put down a semi-gloss coat, it came in a bit dull.

 

 

 

I suggest you eMail "Scott", i.e. NOT "Scoot", directly, as he is overseas now, I believe, and might not see this thread for quite some time.

Has anyone with the 2 rail FP7s had any issues operating them with DCC.  Both of mine run at irrgular speeds and sometimes lurch when operating in the default mode of RTC (Regulated Throttle Control).  Operation in Standard mode is smooth.  Typically the RTC mode would be smoother, due to its use of back EMF.  I'm assuming there is some parameter set up wrong for the motors in RTC mode, but I haven't had the time to look into the issue further.  Has anyone found a solution for this problem?  Is anyone else having this problem?  I guess it's always possible the boards in my locos are defective. 

 

The good news is that these engines are such smooth runner that they hardly need to run in RTC mode.  However, I would like to have the option of using it.

While the body mounted steps would be great, I wonder what that will do to minimum radius?    If it makes the minimum radius so large, it eliminates use on most home layouts, is it worth it.   I have 53 inch minimum and no hope of anything larger.   So if the units could not easily negociate that, I would not be interested in purchasing.

Glenn:  I have three FL-9's and one FP-7 with the QSI Titan decoder.  All four do the same thing.  I contacted Scott when then FL-9's first arrived several months ago and he said to contact QSI. I talked to a tech at QSI who was going to get back to me, but never did.  It's a shame because they run so smooth in RTC at one speed step.  At 15-20 speed steps they begin to lurch and buck.  I've played with several different CV's and no help.  I now just run then in Standard Mode, however the slow speed operation is marginal and I lose all those nice RTC features. If you find some CV settings that work please post them. The QSI Quantum that is in the Atlas locomotives don't have this problem so it seems to be a Titan decoder problem.

I have 2 3rd Rail E7s with the Titan decoders that I run as a pair.   As far as I know they are in default RTC mode and I have had no bucking running them as a pair.   I did have to reprogram the lights but that was a wiring issue not the decoder.

 

I had not heard of RTC before.

What is Regulated Throttle Control?  I have not heard of this before.  How can I avoid it?  Right now, I am using DCC but have not consisted mine.

Thanks,

Ed

I'm very familiar with the Atlas locos that use the QSI Quantum Decoders.  The Quantum System has no issues when running in RTC mode, although thanks to their China Drives, the Atlas locos are a bit jerky at low speeds (with the exception of the switchers, of course).  It's interesting that you have problems with all of your locos, as do I, but others seem to have no issues.  RTC is the default, so I assume most people run in that mode.  What kind of DCC system do you have?  I run NCE, so perhaps that creates a problem.  I've tried turning down the back EMF in RTC mode, and that does not help.  Perhaps there is some other setting to use?

RTC is the default mode for these decoders.  It uses back EMF and a mix of speed regulation to improve smoothness at low speeds, while reducing reducing sudden changes due to grade and loads at higher speeds.  In general, it's the best mode to use, as long as it's working correctly.  If you want to turn it off, look up the Titan instructions online.  The CV is indexed (56.4 ???) but I can't remember the exact number.

Glenn: I use the NCE system also.  It would be interesting to hear what other DCC systems O scalers are using that don't have problems. Does your FP-7 run good on straight DC?

Last week I ran my FP7 at the club, the first time to stretch her legs a bit. I use a 28 step setting on my NCE trottle. At about speed step 12 is when a started noticing a little jerkiness to its running, below that very smooth.

I own two Sunset E7 and two Atlas F3, all with the QSI Titan decoder (or its clone). The FP7 is the only unit that has displayed this jerkiness. I'm beginning to think it may be the drive and not the decoder, that the drive needs some breaking in. I've been told that Sunset uses the same builder for all these units: E7, FL9, FP7.

Granted the engine ran alone without pulling any weight. Default settings are used in all the QSI decoders. I'll be testing her again with a full train in tow.

 

Guys, I very much want to know the source of the jerky behavior. QSI calibrates these models for us, and I don't think they have the facilities to stretch the legs of these models as you do.

 

The only difference between E7/FL9 and FP7 is the size of the wheels. The motor, gearbox and pulley belt ratio is exactly the same. The diameter of the FP7 wheels is 42" vs 36" for the others. So the motor is running a little slower.

 

Dave, send me pictures of your improved cab. I will show our builder what diesel interiors should look like.

 

Email Me.

 

Thanks,

 

Scott Mann

I got a reply from QSI:

 

If you have a customer who needs support, I suggest you have him cross-post his message to the QSIndustries Yahoo Group. In fact, you might make a post on that forum suggesting that your customers do that. We do monitor that board. Another possibility is for you to send the specific support request to Kelly. kelly.dorf@gmail.com

Thanks, Scott. 

-Pat Quinn 
QSI 

I have joined the QSI yahoo group and have posted this issue to it.