Mystery Solved: Weird Fastrack O36 track failure

Interesting, thanks for the experiment.  I have had 3 sections fail in a seemingly similar fashion, but without the testing rigor you went through:  one 30-inch straight, one O-60 curve, and another piece I don't recall.  So my data is not as reliable as yours.

 

After cleaning, fiddling and adding feeders, I just replaced the track sections - no problems after replacement.  Perhaps some poorly formed metal that affects conductivity to the rail-head?  Seems unlikely, but there must be some explanation.  I chalked it up to an unlikely combination of factors that I could not discern.

 

Another thought - a few of my track sections have been bent a bit over the years - I assumed during my "carpet central" period years ago.  Perhaps the stress of bending the metal could affect conductivity if the crystalization was not uniform during manufacturing.  I am not a metalurgist so this is mere speculation.

 

-Ken

I feel as if fast track just isn't that reliable. I usea have an all fast track layout. It was good for a short time then I to suffered the problems you have. I switched over to atlas o track and it's the best track I shave ever had.

pmilazzo,

    I have a large FasTrack layout multi levels high, with lots and lots of FasTrack on it.  Got to say I disagree with RMedine, the new Atlas O  "White Cloud" O Guage track is engineered so close to Lionel FasTrack,  its hard to tell them apart, and they are both, very high quality reliable track. 

The FasTrack is so dependable that I have only run across one bad piece of track

in all the track I own.  Every once in a great while you will hear of a faulty piece of FasTrack, like yours.  If you have a real good LHS owner show him the track, he will

probably just give you another piece of identical track and throw the problem peice in the garbage.  In fact that is exactly what happened in my case long ago, at the Iron Horse. 

PCRR/Dave

 

I'll be on the lookout for that problem you describe, but my FasTrack layout is three, going on four, years old, and I've had zero problems of any kind.

This is interesting.  I was aware of the slotted back, but had no idea it could be linked to possible electrical flaws until now.

 

I did note that an earlier (2006-ish?) starter set I had was of the slotted variety - so much so that when I noted one piece was mechanically defective to some extent (lifted rail), I specifically tried to replace it with another slotted piece so the set would still "match".  (I know, I have some quite serious collector mentality issues there! )  I did not use the track from the set extensively (possibly never did), so I don't know if it may have some electrical issues or not.

 

-Dave

 

In looking at the video, I'm not convinced that it actually is an electrical problem. I say this as you are able to immediately reverse the locomotive just by using the transformer controls, and without nudging the locomotive. I would have thought that if it was an electrical problem with the track, that you would need to nudge the locomotive past the problem area.

Could it instead be a mechanical problem with the track? A kink in the rail causing a tight spot, or a twist causing the locomotive to momentarily loose contact perhaps?

 

Like others, I have never encountered any problems with my FasTrack, although I do have a couple of sections with shipping damage kinks in them that I will replace at some point. But even they perform perfectly apart from adding a 'wake-up-bump' to anything passing over them. 

It might be interesting to do some destructive testing on these apparently defective rails by bending them until they break, and inspecting closely to see if there are visible inconsistencies in the composition of the metal?

NQDY,

   There is some original FasTrack that does give some of the DCS runners pause for concern, although I own a good bit of this track and it's engineered on the 2nd level of our DCS layout, and running without one bit of problem.  This original track has a black center rail, and for some reason gives certain DCS equipment problems with control.  It is the only FasTrack I would advise new runners to avoid, and Lionel discontinued the black mid-rail as soon as they found some DCS equipment was having problems with it.   I purchase this original FasTrack at trains shows all the time, for pennies, and because of the way I engineeer my layouts, I can use every bit of it.  To me engineering with FasTrack, transitioning in and out of old Lionel 711 & 072 switches,  enables me to run every different kind of O Guage train,

even my original Lionel Tin Plate.  The new Atlas O "White Cloud" track will now do the same thing, for those who love Atlas O.  The real draw back to FasTrack is the noise level, when the trains are operating, which I have now pretty well eliminated, with a cheap, light indoor/outdoor carpet on my Christmas layout.  If you really like to run your trains, this engineering package really gets the job done, the layout must be properly powered to run the DCS and old Lionel switches.  Lionel FasTrack is great stuff, no doubt about it. 

PCRR/Dave

 

FasTrack with the black mid-rail, on 2nd level

 

In the past year I have had to return a large batch of fast track to an out of state dealer for lack of plating on the top of the rails causing the track to have dark discoloring, also some of the rails were disformed when looking at them from the ends.

When I went to my local dealer I found the same problem with the track that was on their shelves, I showed the problem to a couple of employees and they agreed and went to the back room for a brand new case which every other track had black spots on top. Needless to say I did not purchase any of the track.

Maybe just a bad run or maybe a new manufacturer.

Paul,

   As you can see I have some black mid-rail FasTrack that is way more than 4 years old, and it still operates perfectly.  No doubt the track you have with the problem,

has probably had it for a along time, maybe even as brnd new track.  Have you ever tried to run DCS on your FasTrack to see if there is a constant problem. 

PCRR/Dave

Casey LV,

  It sounds like all that partcular FasTrack was damaged in shipment and needed to be returned. 

PCRR/Dave

The Black center rail fastrack is about 9-10 years old.  The first starter sets with FastTRack had the black center rail bat around 2003 time frame.

 

 

I would agree with Nicole that the problem looks to be mechanical binding. As she said, electrical issues usually involve the engine needing a nudge to get going again.

 

It might be hard to spot since it can't be much of a binding - just enough to stop a light engine like the Thomas.

 

Have you tried rolling various cars through the spot very slowly by hand (maybe even a freight truck by itself) - feeling for a slight resistance to the motion?

 

Jim

I looked at the video again, and Nicole might be right, but on the "good" track, would it not have done some binding, too?   Still, this is so weird . . .

pmilazzo,  with all due respect, that entry level thomas is a rather primitive/ inaccurate diagnostic tool.IMO there are too many variables involved with the operation of the locomotive itself that could affect its performance.

 

How about checking the track with a voltmeter?Maybe you could power that track section and run the test leads down the rails to better display the voltage drop. If thomas is lacking power I would think a digital voltmeter would confirm this.

 

I couldn't guess which types of fastrack I have built into my layout probably a bunch of both. The only problem I've ever had was a couple of loose connections fixed by crimping the rail ends a bit, these are often indetectable by the track connections themselves because the interlocking roadbed gives a false sense of snug rail joints.

 

Interesting experiment and thanks for posting!

Just a shot in the dark, but turn the track over and lay out on a flat surface to check if it is perfectly flat.  I doubt if that is the problem, but I am having a very hard time seeing a lack of conductivity in the middle of the track.

 

Earl

Understood Paul, and I wasn't implying that the rail joints were the problem,nor was I denying that the track has the problem you are demonstrating. I just think it would be even more interesting if a meter would show a voltage drop in the middle as well.

 

Jim,

 

I have rolled various cars on the "bad" track and there is no extra resistance that I can tell.  Cars can coast nice on it.  I also used a post war caboose with one roller to see if I can spot the trouble spots.  I have to say, the caboose flickers a lot on this section of track vs other track.  I can park it on various dead spots where there would be no light, but careful visual inspection would not show any pitting, oxidation, dents, nicks, or anything else.  The rails and the wheels and roller on the caboose are super clean.  There is much less "flicker" (almost none) on a good piece of track compared to this one.

 

Again, this is not ultra-scientific, just part of my quick diagnostic to try to find the problem and correct.

 

Also, my 2020 and my 2025 would has some issues on this same track, but they would also keep going unless going really slow then they too would stall and need to be pushed to recover. 

 

I would take a picture of the rails to show you how shiny they are but it's hard to tell from with the camera.  This track looks like new, yet there is this issue. 

 

It really does act like dirty track in the middle of the curve, but electrically the connections are there whether from the pins or underneath or both when it was installed on the layout.

 

Anyway, not the end of the world!  I still like fastrack for my crappy basement carpet central layout. I just want to make others aware of this bizzare behavior and see if anyone else had an issue like this who didn't use simply green!  (Sorry Lee!)

 

 

 

Earl,

 

The track sits flat both upside down and right side up on the workbench.  There is no wobble.

 

Guys i understand what happening to this track of his. I will explain why the metal rails has defect in it.  I tell you why the metal turns dark gray inside then just outside metal real shining most time when it does that it will break has a weak spot in rail the real railroad does that to why they have a track inspection machine but when metal does that it will not conduct electric hardly at all i forget what they call the metal when it does that there a special name they call it

It kind of looks to me like the rails are slighly out of guage in the middle of the curve, creating binding. Try unbending the tabs underneath in the middle and prying the rails a hair farther apart and retighting the tabs.

The binding idea got me thinking and I found some more track that I'm not using on the layout from the same slotted vintage batch from a few years ago.   Normally, I use this extra track for small around the tree layouts.  I connected all the pieces together and powered it up.  First I ran a 2025 on it to see if it would maintain constant speed or find any dead spots.  The 2025 ran fine all the way through.  No issues.

 

The 2025 and the 2020 both had issues on the original bad track on the layout with Thomas being the worst offender if you recall, hence the track was removed from the layout.

 

Now I put Thomas on the new test track I just made.  it sputtered like before, midway through the curves on all by a few of the slotted curves.  No issues with the dotted curves though.

 

I cleaned the track again, and there was little improvement.

 

Okay, may be there is a binding / gauge problem with the old slotted track and Thomas at least.  It doesn't explain the electrical on the original bad track.  I will now check the slotted gauge and see if I can make any adjustments as stated by Mike.

 

I'll report back if I have any luck.  The mystery continues...

 

 

 

Add some more track on both ends of the bad section, but don't form a loop.  Connect your alligator trips to one end of the track only.  Run your loco from the wires through the bad section to the opposite end of the track to see if it ever gains electrical contact after the bad section.  Then see if you can jumper across the bad section until you find the point where electrical conductivity is restored.  That will indicate how large the bad section is and will reveal which rail or rails the bad section is in.

 

Good Luck...

Earl

I just watch your video again PM i noticed you had clips hooked up to the pins instead being the rail bad i bet its the pins i had two pieces of track the pins broke off lionel sent me two new pieces the metal was dark gray and shining on outside like defect in the metal try hooking your wires up to the termnials under the track see what it does

Originally Posted by pmilazzo:

What if the Thomas rollers don't come down as far as other rollers and there is a slight dip in the center rail? 

Originally this "bad" track was fed from a power drop underneath on the layout to the track connections under the roadbed.  It was also connected at the pins with the adjoining track.  First thing I did to isolate the problem was disconnect the track from the layout and confirm at the rails that transformer power was getting to the rails from the original power drop underneath which it was.  It was also getting power from the pins.  Hence it didn't make sense that in the middle of the track which as power at both ends and the the middle why all my locomotives without cruise were slowing down or stopping on this one track in the middle.

 

If you read my other post, I just determined that the center rails in the middle of these slotted curves is slightly lower and engines like Thomas couldn't reach the the center rail or were too light compared to the original dotted ones I have.

 

I'm now going focus my attention on the original "bad" track and see if I can confirm any voltage loss in the middle or just a case of the center rail being slightly too low for many loco's reach

Yup.. A possiblity...

Well glad u got the problem fixed . We was all wrong LOL.   

Mystery solved!

 

It's the slightly lower center rail in the middle of these slotted tracks...Even explains the voltage drop since good contact was being lost slightly.

 

 

Interesting. The old Super-O track also had a lower center rail and Lionel cautioned that certain O27 engines wouldn't run on it because their center-rail pickups wouldn't reach down that slight additional distance.

Only thing I can't explain is why only now are the rollers complaining when the track has been on the layout for years?  Nornally it is much warmer in my basement when I run trains even in the winter, but this winter, I have been running them even though its colder than I normally like.

Track base has probably bowed.

Fascinating.  I appreciate knowning this, even though I no longer use Fastrack except for the switches. 

 

This is a very good thread.

That still doesn't explain why your Thomas engine stopped going in one direction, but started going in the opposite direction when you cycled the engine without you nudging the engine off the spot where the engine lost electrical contact 100% of the time in your video.

 

Earl

Could someone please post a picture of slotted vs. standard FasTrack.  I don't know what the difference is nor how to identify my FasTrack.

 

Thanks...

Earl

I was following this with great interest since I'm about to start laying Fastrack!   Glad to see what the issue was, I had all sorts of visions of bad metallurgical issues in the Fastrack.

The middle rail is lower in the middle of the track on this slotted track and tension / contact on the roller was broken intermittently.  I guessing a voltage pulse could temporarily make contact and cycle the e-unit.  Two strong pulses, and the train would back up.  One more pulse, and the would move forward until the rail dropped away releasing tension on the roller spring and it would stop.

 

Only way to test that would be to lock the train in forward and let it stall.  Then when you pulse it, it may jerk forward one last time or just sit there.

 

Since I already bent the rollers to make better contact, I can't reproduce this test anymore.

 

At least bending the roller so it makes stronger contact fixed my other slotted track that I wasn't using.  For the bad track, it "appears" okay now, but I will probably need to volt it out to make sure when I get a chance. Right now the "bad" track is still on the workbench awaiting this final test on it.

 

It certainly is plausible that as all the locomotives lost some tension between their rollers and the middle rail in the middle of the curve piece, it made a weaker connections and thus dropped the voltage slowing the trains down.

 

For that reason, I may or may not find any voltage drop when I hook it up to a meter.

If I do find a voltage drop with a meter, I'll report back. Otherwise I think this case is closed.

 

 

 

Morning All,

I've been following this closely since I'm a Retired Submarine Nuclear Electronics Technician from the Navy who will soon be doing his own fastrack layout.

I think the temperature part could be a larger piece part of this fault than you realize. Since all three rails are made of the same metal, they will all expand/contract with temperature. So as the temperature got colder, that center rail got lower, so did the running rails, but the pickups on Thomas would also have been shorter. If you lower the center rail by a gnat's ***, and raise the pickup by a gnat's *** you would lose connectivity.

When you "bumped" Thomas with the Voltage from the transformer, max vaoltage pulse/spike, you probably jumped/bridged the air gap formed between the center rail/pickup therefore shifting thte "E" unit and Thomas moved. Since he was moving, you dialed back, the voltage couldn't arc across the gap, he stops

As Dennis Miller would say: "That's just my Opinion, I could be wrong"

 

-Rich "Buck" Rogers

Reactor Control "In Rods We Trust"