N&W 611 News

Hi JOHN PIGNATELLI JR, What I got out of Mr. Melvin's statement is, due to the expense of that deadhead move, it would be next to impossible to even break even, on excursions that far from Fort Wayne, Indiana. And the distance to the RBM&N would be roughly the same as to Scranton. The NS excursions of the 21st Century Steam program were in the same neighborhood at the time, so the expense would have been greatly lessened.

I don't wish to put words into Rich's mouth, but I'm sure a volunteer group such as Fort Wayne would like to realize at least a small profit on their operations. Down off the soap box; thanks!    Don Francis

speaking of fwrhs and the 765 on facebook and twitter tey have been hinting that CSX might be softening their stance on steam so take that as you will. if it will happen I have no idea but if CSX does welcome bake steam fwrhs would be the group to break the ice.

While 611 excursions are out for this year I hope they offer a hand on the throttle event with the 611 while she's still down in North Carolina. I missed out on doing it last time and hope to get the opportunity again. I feel like once the 611 heads back to the VMT it won't operate much or head back to the NCTM any time soon. 

John 2584 posted:

speaking of fwrhs and the 765 on facebook and twitter tey have been hinting that CSX might be softening their stance on steam so take that as you will. if it will happen I have no idea but if CSX does welcome bake steam fwrhs would be the group to break the ice.

I believe that was more a tease at possible reunion with PM 1225 at some point. 

So it looks like mainline class 1 steam is done in the northeast. 765 will probably not go east of Ohio again for a long time. I’m glad I rode behind 765 twice when it came to my state because the CVSR is a bit too far for us. This year you have your pick of 844 Denver to Cheyenne, maybe 261 in Minnesota, and 765 maybe on Metra? That’s about it for mainline steam in the US in 2018. So it’s the cost and time as to why 765 can’t go very far very often. We won’t see a repeat of 1988 or 2015 for the next 20 years if ever. I wouldn’t hold your breath on steam returning to CSX. They don’t seem to be backing down on their no steam policy. Doesn’t matter that Hunter is six feet under either, CSX had that policy since probably 1995 which was the first year the New River train operated without steam, but with Amtrak Genesis units. But does anyone know NS’s official stance on steam now? Are they really banning all steam excursions again just like CSX now or would they allow 611 to run with Amtrak? I rode behind 611 from Manassas June 2016 because I feared that NS just might end/ban all excursions again which is what seems to be happening.

Robert K posted:

So it looks like mainline class 1 steam is done in the northeast. 765 will probably not go east of Ohio again for a long time. I’m glad I rode behind 765 twice when it came to my state because the CVSR is a bit too far for us. This year you have your pick of 844 Denver to Cheyenne, maybe 261 in Minnesota, and 765 maybe on Metra? That’s about it for mainline steam in the US in 2018. So it’s the cost and time as to why 765 can’t go very far very often. We won’t see a repeat of 1988 or 2015 for the next 20 years if ever. I wouldn’t hold your breath on steam returning to CSX. They don’t seem to be backing down on their no steam policy. Doesn’t matter that Hunter is six feet under either, CSX had that policy since probably 1995 which was the first year the New River train operated without steam, but with Amtrak Genesis units. But does anyone know NS’s official stance on steam now? Are they really banning all steam excursions again just like CSX now or would they allow 611 to run with Amtrak? I rode behind 611 from Manassas June 2016 because I feared that NS just might end/ban all excursions again which is what seems to be happening.

NS will NOT have public steam trips on their lines but will do deadhead runs to moves the locomotives where they can run. things might be changing on CSX as well but they might not.

I can’t think of any non class 1 railroad over 50 miles with wyes at both ends within 300 miles of Roanoke. Looks like 611 is going to be parked again when it returns to Roanoke from Spencer. I heard that Genessee and Wyoming doesn’t really allow public excursions which is why there are no more steam excursions on the Ohio Central. It’s a liability thing I guess. But G&W will allow steam freight trains on the OC. There was a railroad in Indiana a few years ago that refused to allow 765 to use its tracks for a few miles. The excursions were cancelled because that stubborn railroad was the only way to get to another railroad where the excursions were to run. I’d like to see CSX relax its no steam policy now that NS is tightening its belt regarding spending for frivolous things like steam excursions. I suppose that NS had to pay some of the costs the past several years, ticket sales alone couldn’t support the excursions.

Don Francis posted:

...What I got out of Mr. Melvin's statement is, due to the expense of that deadhead move, it would be next to impossible to even break even... I'm sure a volunteer group such as Fort Wayne would like to realize at least a small profit on their operations.

The FWRHS would have to generate a lot more than a “small profit” on any excursion operation in order to run it.

The reason 765 is still around and running main line excursion trains today is because FWRHS is run like a business. And they are not in business to break even. No business can be successful by just breaking even. They are in business to make a substantial profit on each trip so that when it comes time to do major maintenance work on the locomotive, the funds are available to do it!

We once calculated that the fully burdened cost of running the 765 was well over $50 per mile. This is just the in-house cost of upkeep and a suitable maintenance reserve. This does not include any railroad charges incurred in making a move. Those charges can be as high as $110 per mile!

Some people posting here cannot seem to understand this business basic concept. They think FWRHS runs the 765 just for fun. Sorry, it simply doesn’t work that way. If they ran the 765 just for fun, they would have run out of money a long time ago and the 765 would be a pile of rust by now.

What major railroads are steam friendly now though? CSX still no, NS seems to be ferry moves only now, G&W do they have a no excursion policy? Metra yes, BNSF yes with Amtrak, UP their steam only like 844, CP and CN I don’t know. When will we know of 765’s plans for this year? CVSR again? Is VMT looking for other opportunities to run 611 or are they just going to park it?

Steam is expensive to operate for sure, but less expensive than restored WWII aircraft. Some planes are $200 -$300 per flight hour to maintain, charging $500 or more for public flights. 

For steam locomotive fans, we are blessed with several opportunities to see them operate across the US.

All that money to restore 611 just to sit there and figuratively "rust away" .  Be like restoring your street legal antique car to pristine condition, just to be told by your town that you cannot drive it further than end of driveway (granted you can trailer car someplace to run, locomotives not so much).

They were taking a gamble when restoring the 611. A gamble that NS would allow them to operate excursions. They did, but only 3 years? Now we don’t know what was going on behind the scenes, during the talks between VMT and NS if NS told VMT back in 2014 or whenever we will only allow you a few years of excursions. But NS ended 21st Century Steam end of 2015 so the 611 excursions in 2016 and 2017 were a bonus. NS must have realized that 611 only got one season in, so they allowed 611 to run two additional years.

rrman posted:

All that money to restore 611 just to sit there and figuratively "rust away" .  Be like restoring your street legal antique car to pristine condition, just to be told by your town that you cannot drive it further than end of driveway (granted you can trailer car someplace to run, locomotives not so much).

There is one huge difference between your two examples. The street legal antique car operates on PUBLIC streets. If the vehicle is street legal, it can run on the public streets without issues. A local municipality cannot change or prevent that.

Steam locomotives operate on PRIVATELY OWNED PROPERTY. Consequently the property owner can make the rules about the use of his property. If he says, “No. Go away.”, the steam locomotive operator has no recourse to change that.

John Pignatelli JR. posted:

OK, Rich I have to ask, what did the RB&N do to give you heartburn " As for going back to the RBM&N, that’s not going to happen, either." I thought it to be a neat railroad. 

No comment.

rrman posted:

All that money to restore 611 just to sit there and figuratively "rust away" .  Be like restoring your street legal antique car to pristine condition, just to be told by your town that you cannot drive it further than end of driveway (granted you can trailer car someplace to run, locomotives not so much).

I gave my money to 'Fire Up 611' and got my T shirt. While I don't blame the 611 committee for whats happened I don't like seeing 611 become a  static display piece.  I live by the use it or loose it motto. 

My 46 Ford coupe is driven as often as I can....is sometimes dirty, has rock chips in the paint from DRIVING it to shows. I own no trailer and think things should be taken care of but USED as designed.

Was it a gamble to restore the 611?  Of course, but you either strike while the host railroad is friendly, or the engine sits for another twenty years or longer.  Even if it sits this year, three years of mainline time may not be much, but 4501 had about the same amount of money spent and only got three weekends on the main.  Yes, it can run to Summerville, but TVRM doesn't need an engine that size for the Summerville trips.  Good news is that you never know what the future may bring, and both engines have a lot of boiler time left.  Find the right situation and the sky is the limit.  Hope springs eternal.  In the meantime, treasure what you have.  The situation is far better than it was ten years ago.

OGR Webmaster posted:

rrman posted:

All that money to restore 611 just to sit there and figuratively "rust away" .  Be like restoring your street legal antique car to pristine condition, just to be told by your town that you cannot drive it further than end of driveway (granted you can trailer car someplace to run, locomotives not so much).

There is one huge difference between your two examples. The street legal antique car operates on PUBLIC streets. If the vehicle is street legal, it can run on the public streets without issues. A local municipality cannot change or prevent that.

Steam locomotives operate on PRIVATELY OWNED PROPERTY. Consequently the property owner can make the rules about the use of his property. If he says, “No. Go away.”, the steam locomotive operator has no recourse to change that.

Rich with the voice of reason as usual. 611 is a large locomotive with no where to run in essence. Think of 3751 which is in a similar situation. I expect to see the 611 head back to the VMT this spring where she will most likely sit until an opportunity presents itself. She's got until 2030 until any major work needs to be done again; so the VMT has time. 

Maybe the Museum should have had a long term contract with NS before restoration.

Prior to Bev's retirement the museum was in talks with Amtrak.  There were huge plans of running a trip to the Midwest in conjunction with another museum. Once there there were trips planned to from that point. However the other museum decided they were not going to be able to facilitate the excursions. So we are back to square one. With some cooperation with Norfolk Southern we maybe able to run the local steam events again. Keep in mind that the museum is land locked and must use NS track to leave the facility. Before everyone goes and bashes NS; without their generous donation of funds we wouldn't have seen the J run at all. The current NS team is not as steam friendly as Wick Moorman is. The Norfolk Southern passenger cars that we rented from NS were auctioned off. That is also going to make things a little more difficult. Don't give up hope on this; just value any time and chance we get to run her in the future.

Scott Smith

OGR Webmaster posted:

rrman posted:

All that money to restore 611 just to sit there and figuratively "rust away" .  Be like restoring your street legal antique car to pristine condition, just to be told by your town that you cannot drive it further than end of driveway (granted you can trailer car someplace to run, locomotives not so much).

There is one huge difference between your two examples. The street legal antique car operates on PUBLIC streets. If the vehicle is street legal, it can run on the public streets without issues. A local municipality cannot change or prevent that.

Steam locomotives operate on PRIVATELY OWNED PROPERTY. Consequently the property owner can make the rules about the use of his property. If he says, “No. Go away.”, the steam locomotive operator has no recourse to change that.

Rich

I realize the analogy wasn't perfect but best I could think of. Maybe airplane at airport, or boat at lake or ??  Was just an example.

scott.smith posted:

Don't give up hope on this; just value any time and chance we get to run her in the future.

Scott Smith

While I do not give up hope ever......I am glad I rode almost every large steam loco East of the Mississippi since about 1971. And as I am older I got to ride more than most.  Sad still.....

rrman posted:Rich

I realize the analogy wasn't perfect but best I could think of. Maybe airplane at airport, or boat at lake or ??  Was just an example.

I got the gist of it......like the car guys that trailer their car to a show...don't even unload it.....and tell all to keep back....a waste.

I know the 611 situation is a unfortunate intersection of circumstances..... don't mean I like it any more......thx

I was at a model train show yesterday.  I was seeing people OF ALL AGES doing things like touching objects at dealers' tables without any intent to buy.  Could one imagine the behaviour around a live steam engine, where a wrong touch could burn or kill somebody?  With people's lack of respect for anybody or anything, is a steam powered train, outside a "sealed" locality a good idea today?

Dominic Mazoch posted:

I was at a model train show yesterday.  I was seeing people OF ALL AGES doing things like touching objects at dealers' tables without any intent to buy.  Could one imagine the behaviour around a live steam engine, where a wrong touch could burn or kill somebody?  With people's lack of respect for anybody or anything, is a steam powered train, outside a "sealed" locality a good idea today?

Lowest common denominator method is what got us here....we need more????

Private autos next??? I see more idiots on the road than anywhere.

Dominic Mazoch posted:

I was at a model train show yesterday.  I was seeing people OF ALL AGES doing things like touching objects at dealers' tables without any intent to buy.  Could one imagine the behaviour around a live steam engine, where a wrong touch could burn or kill somebody?  With people's lack of respect for anybody or anything, is a steam powered train, outside a "sealed" locality a good idea today?

Railroad museums and tourist railroads also are not immune to bad public behavior.

Rusty

I missed 611 in the 80s and 90s (but not 1218), so I'll take the 2 years, 3 excursions, and 5 chases that I had with the "Queen of Steam". I should have been in Roanoke for the 3rd year, but economics (a foreign word to a few on this thread) and family crises sometimes interfere with the good times.

I should also mention Mr. Melvin and the 765 crew, I feel good about my experiences around that fine engine, riding up Horseshoe Curve and then over the Poconos, and chasing to East Stroudsburg on a beautiful Labor Day.
If anyone cares years from now, I can say "I wuz there" when big steam ran again in the Eastern U.S.

I sure wish you guys would stop calling me “Mr. Melvin.” It just makes me feel old... 

Besides, “Mr. Melvin” was my father. 

Wish people would call me Rich but, alas, I am a Poor farmer. 

Hi Rich, I'm sorry if my post  "lit a fire". I've been sitting on this post for a day, but please indulge me.

I think that you did not understand what I was trying to say. For the sake of brevity, many things were left out of my posting.

First of all, I'm on your side!  The key words in my posting were  "even break even"  and   "at least a small profit". What was desired to be conveyed was that excursions can not be operated at a loss!

Railroads are in business to make money, and they have expenses that put other businesses to shame; and I am well aware that steam excursions have expenses on top of those. As you have said, steam locomotives burn money. And the need to make a profit is not in dispute.

Having been in the railroad business, and also on the excursion end of it, I know where you're coming from, and I for one do not believe that the FWRHS is in it "just for fun". I have ridden the 765 trips many times in the past, enjoyed them a great deal, and tried to make it to as many as I could. Also rode 611, 1218, 2101, 2102, 4070, 614, brief ferry scene of 261, and various tourist railroads.

But apparently I must learn not to speak on the behalf of others; it won't happen again. Thank you for your time.   Don Francis

Here we go again, repeat of 1994/1995. Like Scott Smith said there was a regime change at NS and the new boss is not as friendly toward steam as Wick was. Wick was almost like Bob Claytor in his thinking. The new guy, Jim Squires he may almost be like David R. Goode. They got rid of the five coaches after last year’s excursions because they wanted to get out of the excursion business. Now we’ll be lucky if 611 runs at all, except the ferry move home from Spencer. Sorry that the plans with Amtrak or that other museum didn’t quite work out. I guess I was right, I knew that the excursions weren’t going to continue indefinitely, that’s why I rode two 765 excursions in PA and one 611 excursion in Virginia. Hopefully NS will have a heart and allow 611 to run at least a few excursions once in a while. I guess NS will still allow other special excursions with diesel power like Amtrak specials and Bennett Levin’s E8’s. If you want mainline steam this year head to Denver late July for the 844 excursion to Cheyenne. That seems to be it for the US this year unless I missed something. Well, there’s also the RBMN trips with 425. Wick only planned 21st Century Steam to last until his retirement because he probably knew that his successor might not want to continue it. Maybe it’s better that 611 sits at home more in light of all the Amtrak accidents, wouldn’t want that to happen to 611. Also, how would mandatory PTC affect mainline steam, including UP’s? The Lehigh Gorge trip was probably my final time behind 765 since CVSR is too far for us.

J 611 posted:

OGR Webmaster posted:

rrman posted:

All that money to restore 611 just to sit there and figuratively "rust away" .  Be like restoring your street legal antique car to pristine condition, just to be told by your town that you cannot drive it further than end of driveway (granted you can trailer car someplace to run, locomotives not so much).

There is one huge difference between your two examples. The street legal antique car operates on PUBLIC streets. If the vehicle is street legal, it can run on the public streets without issues. A local municipality cannot change or prevent that.

Steam locomotives operate on PRIVATELY OWNED PROPERTY. Consequently the property owner can make the rules about the use of his property. If he says, “No. Go away.”, the steam locomotive operator has no recourse to change that.

Rich with the voice of reason as usual. 611 is a large locomotive with no where to run in essence. Think of 3751 which is in a similar situation. I expect to see the 611 head back to the VMT this spring where she will most likely sit until an opportunity presents itself. She's got until 2030 until any major work needs to be done again; so the VMT has time. 

I'm pretty sure 3751 can run almost anywhere BNSF gives permission. It sure seems to me that Amtrak, Metrolink, Coaster, and BNSF all have very good relations with the 3751's owners. In an issue of Trains Magazine about mainline steam (forget year, might have been 2014), it was said that since BNSF does not have a dedicated steam program, any mainline steam locomotive allowed to run on their rails was essentially considered part of an unofficial steam program. I can't really figure out why else BNSF would run one of their GEVOs to Fullerton Railroad Days behind 3751 and then carefully tow it back to Los Angeles. This happened at least 2 years in a row. Now sure, there's no wye and nobody would approve running in reverse, but the point is Metrolink could easily have lent one of their units, and so could have Amtrak.

With 3751 being so popular out here I find it very hard to believe that she is out of places to run to. I'm sure people would buy tickets for another Grand Canyon run with 4960, or a San Diegan run from Los Angeles to San Diego. 

However, I do know that 3751 was supposed to be in the process of being torn down for its 1472 after getting an extension on the ticket. Haven't heard much since, significant work has probably been done already. 

If there's something I'm missing that would give grounds to believe 3751 has no place to run once done with its 1472, please let me know. I would hate to see 3751 just sit in Los Angeles, it's a local favorite here. 

Robert K, 

Unfortunately 765 will never go to Steamtown, as others have explained previously. Even if you throw out all of the things Rich mentioned, there's still a huge issue that I'm surprised nobody has mentioned yet. When Steamtown was moving around NKP 759, they honestly thought it would roll a rail. The track was not happy having to accommodate a large steam locomotive. To make matters worse, the only available track  for excursions of any kind is good for about 25-30 mph, and may not take kindly to 765's size and weight. This is why not even Steamtown is attempting to run larger locomotives up there, even though they could get 759 running with time, money, and effort. Of course there are additional factors, but the point still stands. 765 won't run to Scranton, period.

GenesisFan99, I don't know where you got your information, but it's not correct. We never had any concerns about the trackage inside the Steamtown Park. It's all big rail with good ties and was just fine.

The same conditions apply out on the Delaware Lackawanna main It's all Class 3 track, good for 49 mph.

OGR Webmaster posted:

GenesisFan99, I don't know where you got your information, but it's not correct. We never had any concerns about the trackage inside the Steamtown Park. It's all big rail with good ties and was just fine.

The same conditions apply out on the Delaware Lackawanna main It's all Class 3 track, good for 49 mph.

Heard from a guy on facebook who has volunteering for Steamtown listed on his profile (I'm sure you know what I'm talking about how people can list things they do on their profiles like jobs etc). Seemed to be pretty knowledgeable but you would know better than me.

GenesisFan99 posted:

J 611 posted:

OGR Webmaster posted:

rrman posted:

All that money to restore 611 just to sit there and figuratively "rust away" .  Be like restoring your street legal antique car to pristine condition, just to be told by your town that you cannot drive it further than end of driveway (granted you can trailer car someplace to run, locomotives not so much).

There is one huge difference between your two examples. The street legal antique car operates on PUBLIC streets. If the vehicle is street legal, it can run on the public streets without issues. A local municipality cannot change or prevent that.

Steam locomotives operate on PRIVATELY OWNED PROPERTY. Consequently the property owner can make the rules about the use of his property. If he says, “No. Go away.”, the steam locomotive operator has no recourse to change that.

Rich with the voice of reason as usual. 611 is a large locomotive with no where to run in essence. Think of 3751 which is in a similar situation. I expect to see the 611 head back to the VMT this spring where she will most likely sit until an opportunity presents itself. She's got until 2030 until any major work needs to be done again; so the VMT has time. 

I'm pretty sure 3751 can run almost anywhere BNSF gives permission. It sure seems to me that Amtrak, Metrolink, Coaster, and BNSF all have very good relations with the 3751's owners. In an issue of Trains Magazine about mainline steam (forget year, might have been 2014), it was said that since BNSF does not have a dedicated steam program, any mainline steam locomotive allowed to run on their rails was essentially considered part of an unofficial steam program. I can't really figure out why else BNSF would run one of their GEVOs to Fullerton Railroad Days behind 3751 and then carefully tow it back to Los Angeles. This happened at least 2 years in a row. Now sure, there's no wye and nobody would approve running in reverse, but the point is Metrolink could easily have lent one of their units, and so could have Amtrak.

With 3751 being so popular out here I find it very hard to believe that she is out of places to run to. I'm sure people would buy tickets for another Grand Canyon run with 4960, or a San Diegan run from Los Angeles to San Diego. 

However, I do know that 3751 was supposed to be in the process of being torn down for its 1472 after getting an extension on the ticket. Haven't heard much since, significant work has probably been done already. 

If there's something I'm missing that would give grounds to believe 3751 has no place to run once done with its 1472, please let me know. I would hate to see 3751 just sit in Los Angeles, it's a local favorite here. 

The last major mainline excursion 3751 ran was in 2012. Other than that she has only been fired up for trips to displays at various railroad festivals and events. I compared 611 to 3751 in that in the near future expect to see 611 used in a similar fashion. IE periodic steam ups for short trips, displays, etc as opposed to long mainline trips. 

J 611 posted:

GenesisFan99 posted:

J 611 posted:

OGR Webmaster posted:

rrman posted:

All that money to restore 611 just to sit there and figuratively "rust away" .  Be like restoring your street legal antique car to pristine condition, just to be told by your town that you cannot drive it further than end of driveway (granted you can trailer car someplace to run, locomotives not so much).

There is one huge difference between your two examples. The street legal antique car operates on PUBLIC streets. If the vehicle is street legal, it can run on the public streets without issues. A local municipality cannot change or prevent that.

Steam locomotives operate on PRIVATELY OWNED PROPERTY. Consequently the property owner can make the rules about the use of his property. If he says, “No. Go away.”, the steam locomotive operator has no recourse to change that.

Rich with the voice of reason as usual. 611 is a large locomotive with no where to run in essence. Think of 3751 which is in a similar situation. I expect to see the 611 head back to the VMT this spring where she will most likely sit until an opportunity presents itself. She's got until 2030 until any major work needs to be done again; so the VMT has time. 

I'm pretty sure 3751 can run almost anywhere BNSF gives permission. It sure seems to me that Amtrak, Metrolink, Coaster, and BNSF all have very good relations with the 3751's owners. In an issue of Trains Magazine about mainline steam (forget year, might have been 2014), it was said that since BNSF does not have a dedicated steam program, any mainline steam locomotive allowed to run on their rails was essentially considered part of an unofficial steam program. I can't really figure out why else BNSF would run one of their GEVOs to Fullerton Railroad Days behind 3751 and then carefully tow it back to Los Angeles. This happened at least 2 years in a row. Now sure, there's no wye and nobody would approve running in reverse, but the point is Metrolink could easily have lent one of their units, and so could have Amtrak.

With 3751 being so popular out here I find it very hard to believe that she is out of places to run to. I'm sure people would buy tickets for another Grand Canyon run with 4960, or a San Diegan run from Los Angeles to San Diego. 

However, I do know that 3751 was supposed to be in the process of being torn down for its 1472 after getting an extension on the ticket. Haven't heard much since, significant work has probably been done already. 

If there's something I'm missing that would give grounds to believe 3751 has no place to run once done with its 1472, please let me know. I would hate to see 3751 just sit in Los Angeles, it's a local favorite here. 

The last major mainline excursion 3751 ran was in 2012. Other than that she has only been fired up for trips to displays at various railroad festivals and events. I compared 611 to 3751 in that in the near future expect to see 611 used in a similar fashion. IE periodic steam ups for short trips, displays, etc as opposed to long mainline trips. 

The 3751 is in a very different and much more difficult situation then the 611. because in the LA basin  on every line that 3751 could run on there is over 150 a day that do thou there besides the San Diego line that still has over 20 Amtrak trains daily. A better comparison would be to 765,that if Trains magazine is to be believed is going to 5 states this year mostly deadheading on NS so let me ask why can't 611 do the same?   

J 611- Thank you for clarifying. That makes a lot more sense.

GenesisFan99 posted:

J 611 posted:

OGR Webmaster posted:

rrman posted:

All that money to restore 611 just to sit there and figuratively "rust away" .  Be like restoring your street legal antique car to pristine condition, just to be told by your town that you cannot drive it further than end of driveway (granted you can trailer car someplace to run, locomotives not so much).

There is one huge difference between your two examples. The street legal antique car operates on PUBLIC streets. If the vehicle is street legal, it can run on the public streets without issues. A local municipality cannot change or prevent that.

Steam locomotives operate on PRIVATELY OWNED PROPERTY. Consequently the property owner can make the rules about the use of his property. If he says, “No. Go away.”, the steam locomotive operator has no recourse to change that.

Rich with the voice of reason as usual. 611 is a large locomotive with no where to run in essence. Think of 3751 which is in a similar situation. I expect to see the 611 head back to the VMT this spring where she will most likely sit until an opportunity presents itself. She's got until 2030 until any major work needs to be done again; so the VMT has time. 

I'm pretty sure 3751 can run almost anywhere BNSF gives permission. It sure seems to me that Amtrak, Metrolink, Coaster, and BNSF all have very good relations with the 3751's owners. In an issue of Trains Magazine about mainline steam (forget year, might have been 2014), it was said that since BNSF does not have a dedicated steam program, any mainline steam locomotive allowed to run on their rails was essentially considered part of an unofficial steam program. I can't really figure out why else BNSF would run one of their GEVOs to Fullerton Railroad Days behind 3751 and then carefully tow it back to Los Angeles. This happened at least 2 years in a row. Now sure, there's no wye and nobody would approve running in reverse, but the point is Metrolink could easily have lent one of their units, and so could have Amtrak.

With 3751 being so popular out here I find it very hard to believe that she is out of places to run to. I'm sure people would buy tickets for another Grand Canyon run with 4960, or a San Diegan run from Los Angeles to San Diego. 

However, I do know that 3751 was supposed to be in the process of being torn down for its 1472 after getting an extension on the ticket. Haven't heard much since, significant work has probably been done already. 

If there's something I'm missing that would give grounds to believe 3751 has no place to run once done with its 1472, please let me know. I would hate to see 3751 just sit in Los Angeles, it's a local favorite here. 

It's a little bit more complicated than BNSF just giving permission (if you meant that literally).  My understanding is that BNSF requires a steam qualified BNSF engineer to operate the locomotive on BNSF track. That skill set is probably becoming less and less in the BNSF ranks.  Couple that with scheduling track time AND the qualified BNSF engineer, the chances get less and less.

Steve

RideTheRails posted:

It's a little bit more complicated than BNSF just giving permission (if you meant that literally).  My understanding is that BNSF requires a steam qualified BNSF engineer to operate the locomotive on BNSF track. That skill set is probably becoming less and less in the BNSF ranks.  Couple that with scheduling track time AND the qualified BNSF engineer, the chances get less and less.

Steve

Interesting. Were do you hear THAT? The BNSF obviously requires a "steam qualified" Engineer to be at the controls for operations, but that individual may very well NOT be a BNSF employee. I know for sure about operations on BNSF with SP 4449!

Hot Water posted:

RideTheRails posted:

It's a little bit more complicated than BNSF just giving permission (if you meant that literally).  My understanding is that BNSF requires a steam qualified BNSF engineer to operate the locomotive on BNSF track. That skill set is probably becoming less and less in the BNSF ranks.  Couple that with scheduling track time AND the qualified BNSF engineer, the chances get less and less.

Steve

Interesting. Were do you hear THAT? The BNSF obviously requires a "steam qualified" Engineer to be at the controls for operations, but that individual may very well NOT be a BNSF employee. I know for sure about operations on BNSF with SP 4449!

From my son who talked to the BNSF engineer when 3751 was in Fullerton a few years ago.

Steve