GREAT shots but more hooter whistling would have been better.

@Tinplate Art posted:

GREAT shots but more hooter whistling would have been better.

Reminder: Real locomotive engineers didn't blow whistles for the fun of it.

Rusty

@Rusty Traque posted:

Reminder: Real locomotive engineers didn't blow whistles for the fun of it.

Rusty

Exactly! Plus, there really were not many grade crossings on that Blue Ridge Grade either. When I visited there in 1957 (I think) I rarely heard any whistling and just enjoyed the sounds of the exhausts; the faster exhausts from the Y class and the slower exhausts from the Class A road engine (the Class A locomotives had 69" diameter drivers).  

It always bugs me when vintage railroad films don't have live sound and companies just dub stuff in, but it's easier to understand why there aren't many live sound steam movies knowing how bulky and expensive recording equipment was. This is a good exception though!

Even so, those hooters were something else!

Posted this thread with a video we released yesterday with the 765 operating in the same territory with a guest Hooter whistle.

@nathansixchime posted:

Posted this thread with a video we released yesterday with the 765 operating in the same territory with a guest Hooter whistle.

Kelly,

I beg to differ, as your excellent video of NKP 765 is between Williamson, Kenova, and Portsmouth, which is NOT the same territory shown in the video posted above (which is mostly east and west of Roanoke, with scenes on Christianburg Grade and Blue Ridge Grade).  I remember riding new EMD GP30 units on the N&W between Portsmouth and Williamson (which is all pretty much water-level grade, except for the bridge over the Ohio River at Kenova), during the late summer and early fall of 1962. Maybe that explains why there isn't much "heavy exhaust" from 765? 

@Hot Water posted:

Kelly,

I beg to differ, as your excellent video of NKP 765 is between Williamson, Kenova, and Portsmouth, which is NOT the same territory shown in the video posted above (which is mostly east and west of Roanoke, with scenes on Christianburg Grade and Blue Ridge Grade).  I remember riding new EMD GP30 units on the N&W between Portsmouth and Williamson (which is all pretty much water-level grade, except for the bridge over the Ohio River at Kenova), during the late summer and early fall of 1962. Maybe that explains why there isn't much "heavy exhaust" from 765? 

Yep.  pretty flat, combined with a fairly short train.  12-13 cars if memory serves.  Outside of some acceleration areas, it wasn't even breathing hard that weekend.  It was great to see steam in WV again.  It had been way too long, and hasn't been repeated since.

@GameBreaker64 posted:

It always bugs me when vintage railroad films don't have live sound and companies just dub stuff in, but it's easier to understand why there aren't many live sound steam movies knowing how bulky and expensive recording equipment was. This is a good exception though!

The other side of it is if you've ever been on the editing end.  Trying to dub accurate sound is a royal pain.  Not a random engine doing 15mph while your subject is running 30mph.  That bothers me more than music when it's obvious that the sound isn't even close to being correct.  There's precious little real sound from the steam era, unfortunately.

@Hot Water posted:

Kelly,

I beg to differ, as your excellent video of NKP 765 is between Williamson, Kenova, and Portsmouth, which is NOT the same territory shown in the video posted above.

Thanks --- being wrong means you're only one step away from being right!

O Winston Link made a few hi fidelity audio recordings of N&W steam just before they brought out the torches.  As steam bid farewell the ability to take stereo recording into the field was dawning.  Some tracks were produced from aboard while others of painfully long railside run pasts (walk past?).  Link recorded the last of the remaining class A's, S1's and Y6's.  The recordings of Hooters far off in the distance are particularly mournful and haunting.  None of the sounds were staged as would soon become common place on steam excursions.  Thunder on Blue Ridge and Mainline to Panther offer the best of the last in working steam audio.  

Bruce

I think it's dubbed sound.

Possibly it was sound that was recorded during the action and later overdubbed, but I still think its dubbed.

Nice footage, and the dubbing is good, but not natural sounding in the scenes.

Andre

The J’s whistle blasts are in sync with the footage

Love it!  Thanks for that.

I'm not overly familiar with consumer grade color cameras that were capable of recording the sound onto the film, but I highly suspect there weren't such in the late 1950s (the approximate date of these scenes). The late Emery Gulash shot much footage in the early-mid 60s using an excellent quality 16mm camera, and none of his clips from the early-mid sixties that I know of had sound capabilities.

Even in this clip, I see a few scenes where the sound from the previous scene bleeds over to the new scene. That indicates to me the sound was recorded live on a reel-to-reel near the camera, and was overdubbed via an editing session later.

It's very good dubbing. Dubbing that is likely using sound recordings from the actual scene, but I still suspect it is not live sound on the film of the camera doing the filming. I don't think that capability was affordable (even available?) at the consumer/amateur level at that time.

I could be mistaken, but I don't think so. Perhaps someone with a lot more knowledge about consumer grade color cameras with live sound capability will step in and share what they know about the hobbyist camera's of the day.

Whether the sound was recorded live on the film or not, it is historic action and sound, and a very valuable clip!

Just my thoughts. Obviously, your thoughts are different. No big deal.

Andre

Andre,

There were indeed 16MM cameras with sound capabilities back in the mid to late 1950s. A couple of my buddies borrowed on of those cameras from a "wealthy friend", and we made color sound movies of the Reading RR Iron Horse Rambles in the late 50s and early 60s. The sound was an optical signature on one side of the film, and came out pretty respectable when played by a 16MM sound movie projector so equipped. My buddy still has the completed & edited movie today, and has even had it duplicated, but I don't know what the duplicate format is.

Then of course there are those fantastic 35MM color sound movies of Southern Pacific steam powered passenger trains, taken by the late Ward Kimble of the Walt Disney Studios, back in the mid to late 1940s.

Hot:

So it was possible, then, if'n you had the connections or the coin! Think it's still safe to assume very few consumer/amateurs had them, or no?

As one that's had experience with these types of cameras, what's your impressions? Think it's sound from the film, or live recording beside the camera and dubbed both were mixed in an editing suite later?

Really, this is no issue yay or nay, but the curious side of me would like to know. However, without the original cinematographer here to chime in, I'll reckon I'll never know fer sure.

Sure nice quality, it has to be at least 16mm.

Andre

@Hot Water posted:

Andre,

There were indeed 16MM cameras with sound capabilities back in the mid to late 1950s. A couple of my buddies borrowed on of those cameras from a "wealthy friend", and we made color sound movies of the Reading RR Iron Horse Rambles in the late 50s and early 60s. The sound was an optical signature on one side of the film, and came out pretty respectable when played by a 16MM sound movie projector so equipped. My buddy still has the completed & edited movie today, and has even had it duplicated, but I don't know what the duplicate format is.

Then of course there are those fantastic 35MM color sound movies of Southern Pacific steam powered passenger trains, taken by the late Ward Kimble of the Walt Disney Studios, back in the mid to late 1940s.

do you have access to kimball’s films?

So...this video opens at the 9:29 min. mark. How many of you rewound to the start of the video to see the doghouse on the Class J tender?

Big Jim I saw the doghouse tender behind the J but how many noticed all of the Aux Tenders almost every scene the locomotive had an Aux Tender even the helpers had them.

@RJT posted:

 how many noticed all of the Aux Tenders almost every scene the locomotive had an Aux Tender even the helpers had them.

That was very common. Note that the pushers didn't have them.
One train east out of Bluefield did not have one, but, that could possibly be because other than the slight uphill river grade along the New River from Glen Lyn to Walton, the only hill to climb eastbound was the eight miles between Walton and Christiansburg and a pusher awaited. 

I have Link's "Thunder on Blue Ridge" In the recording's title sequence you hear a coal drag pass the Boaz helper pocket and come to a stop. The pusher is coupled behind the caboose and the train begins the climb to Blue Ridge. Then there are a couple of excerpts which feature 14L crossing whistles. Finally, the money track of the Y6 and A emerging from the summit cut and the Y6 hooter breaking into what Link described as "The Great Whistle Storm" with the whistle over-blowing in a succession if ethereal shrieks.  

The 1958 topo maps and 1955 aerial photos on historicaerials.com show at least 6 public road crossings and a number of private and farm road crossings between Boaz and Blue Ridge.

Nick,
I think that "The Great Whistle Storm" was a contrived event, just as the lack of a "Canteen" that Link asked to be removed between the lead and second engine in order for him to get both locos in the same frame. I also don't think that there were any road crossings near the top of the Blue Ridge grade, although there were some overhead bridges in the area. One bridge in particular was near the top of the grade and known as "Photographer's Bridge". I think that this area was where Link and others did a lot of recording. The bridge is now gone, but you can still get to where it had been.
The Bud Swearer tapes specifically note that whistling was asked for during the time of his recordings. A lot of engineers would comply, but, others did not, leading me to believe that there was no road crossing in the immediate area.

I would like to see the topo maps of that time. Do you have a link to it?

@Big Jim posted:

Nick,
I think that "The Great Whistle Storm" was a contrived event, just as the lack of a "Canteen" that Link asked to be removed between the lead and second engine in order for him to get both locos in the same frame. I also don't think that there were any road crossings near the top of the Blue Ridge grade, although there were some overhead bridges in the area. One bridge in particular was near the top of the grade and known as "Photographer's Bridge". I think that this area was where Link and others did a lot of recording. The bridge is now gone, but you can still get to where it had been.
The Bud Swearer tapes specifically note that whistling was asked for during the time of his recordings. A lot of engineers would comply, but, others did not, leading me to believe that there was no road crossing in the immediate area.

I would like to see the topo maps of that time. Do you have a link to it?

I don't doubt that "The Great Whistle Storm" was performed at Mr. Link's request, but the excerpts of whistling in the distance were probably legit. I only threw in the reference to "The Great Whistle Storm" to describe the incredible sounds, not to suggest that it was a crossing signal.

There was, as you say, the "photographer's bridge" to the west of the Blue Ridge Depot.  The actual summit is in the cut between he station and the old west end of the Villamont center siding (where the pushers cut off on the fly). I believe Link was set up near the Stepping Stone Rd. bridge, behind the present day Boxley Concrete Products facility, which was just west of the switches for the center siding. The main tracks have never been re-aligned, spreading out at that point, so it's quite easy to identify where the siding began.

I've experienced the 1218's whistle on a number of occasions. It can be heard at an amazing distance, even with the ambient noise in the daytime. At night, with refraction of sound waves caused by temperature inversion, and with the absence of daytime noise interference, it should be possible to hear that whistle for a number of miles, especially in that mountainous terrain. 

Link had the gain cranked way up on those short sequences, as evidenced by the sounds of the crickets. As the train drew closer, he lowered the gain and the cricket noises became less prominent, relative to the whistling.

You can view topos and aerials on https://www.historicaerials.com/viewer. It's  a great resource.

@Nick Chillianis posted:

There was, as you say, the "photographer's bridge" to the west of the Blue Ridge Depot.  The actual summit is in the cut between he station and the old west end of the Villamont center siding (where the pushers cut off on the fly). I believe Link was set up near the Stepping Stone Rd. bridge, behind the present day Boxley Concrete Products facility, which was just west of the switches for the center siding. The main tracks have never been re-aligned, spreading out at that point, so it's quite easy to identify where the siding began.

You can view topos and aerials on https://www.historicaerials.com/viewer. It's  a great resource.

Nick,

There were two bridges at Blue Ridge back in the day.  There was--and is--a bridge at Stepping Stone Rd right at the top of the hill.

The "photographer's bridge" was WEST of Blue Ridge (really a couple hundred feet east of the west Blue Ridge signals) at Blue Ridge Springs Rd.  That bridge is now gone, but you can drive up to where it was, and the abutments are plainly visible.  That's the big open curve with a lower field that you see in all of the steam era photographs.  Of course, everything on the south side of the tracks is badly grown in these days and its just a wall of trees.

On a clear day, you should be able to stand at Blue Ridge and hear whistles at least as far as Villamont on the east, and down to Webster on the west side.  Those N&W hooter whistles carry forever, and the "Claytor whistle" that 611 had from 1982-94 was quite a bit louder than what's on the engine these days.  I can remember standing at a crossing and hearing it approach from about 10-15 minutes out.  With the right conditions, you might be able to hear Montvale and Bonsack.

Now, which bridge Link was standing at for the recording, your guess is as good as mine.

@Nick Chillianis posted:

I believe Link was set up near the Stepping Stone Rd. bridge, behind the present day Boxley Concrete Products facility, which was just west of the switches for the center siding.

I believe that you are mistaken about that and that Link set up west west of the top of the grade. The locos were lugging pretty hard as they went by the microphone and being further west, you could hear everything that was happening down the hill to toward Roanoke. There were houses close by and Link has made the comment that the lady that he was paying to use her electricity pulled the plug on him.
The dead give-away that he is west of the top of the grade is the fact that the pusher is slugging it out when it passes the microphone too!
I am in the process of moving and all of my books are packed away. I think that it might be mentioned in one of those as to where he was exactly. 

Are those 4-4-4-4 steam locomotives at 5:25, 6:08 and 8:14?

If so, I never knew that the N&W had such a locomotive!

Thanks for posting!  I really enjoyed the video and sounds and as a Southern Railway fan, I also enjoyed seeing the passenger train with Sou E8's pulling them near the end.

Great video!

Don

@DGJONES posted:

Are those 4-4-4-4 steam locomotives at 5:25, 6:08 and 8:14?

No. Those are 1200 series Class A, locomotives that are 2-6-6-4 wheel arrangement.

If so, I never knew that the N&W had such a locomotive!

Thanks for posting!  I really enjoyed the video and sounds and as a Southern Railway fan, I also enjoyed seeing the passenger train with Sou E8's pulling them near the end.

Great video!

Don

@Big Jim posted:

I believe that you are mistaken about that and that Link set up west west of the top of the grade. The locos were lugging pretty hard as they went by the microphone and being further west, you could hear everything that was happening down the hill to toward Roanoke. There were houses close by and Link has made the comment that the lady that he was paying to use her electricity pulled the plug on him.
The dead give-away that he is west of the top of the grade is the fact that the pusher is slugging it out when it passes the microphone too!
I am in the process of moving and all of my books are packed away. I think that it might be mentioned in one of those as to where he was exactly. 

@Big Jim I believe you are correct. I went back over some liner notes and the recording of a Y6b - Class A doubleheader emerging from the summit cut is on the Semaphore Records album "Rods Wheels Whistles.". I mistakenly conflated it with Link's recording. 

The "Rods, Wheels, Whistle" recording is interesting as you can hear the Y6b change over from compound to simple, by the use of the so-called "booster" intercepting/reducing valve added to the improved Y6 engines, in order to provide some more tractive effort to crest the summit.

I have seen film from the top of the pusher's tender as the Y6 drops off on the fly. It takes place in the curved cut and the pusher is working to keep the slack bunched right up until when the pin is pulled. Then it drifts under Stepping Stone Rd. bridge and stops at the west switches of the Villamont siding. 

If I can find it, I'll link to it. It purports to be live sound, but the sound is badly out of sync with the pictures.

@Big Jim Here's the film I talked about: Pillars of Smoke In The Sky 1957 Original Unedited

@Nick Chillianis posted:

@Big Jim Here's the film I talked about: Pillars of Smoke In The Sky 1957 Original Unedited 

Truly an amazing film! Even though the sound is quite a bit off from being synchronized with the various scenes, it is still fantastic.

I have that very nice film in VHS & DVD. It has been a good while since I have watched it and I can't comment on whether or not the sound is in sync. 
I also have the Rods, Wheels & Whistles CD.
On the Bud Swearer tapes, Bud also recorded many tracks west of the grade summit and would let the recording go on until the pusher could no longer be heard. During these times you can hear the pusher pick up speed and change from simple to compound. On at least one track the distant sound of rods knocking overpower the sounds of exhausts! These tapes are also significant because the "canteens" were in use on both engines when double heading. This made it very easy to separate the unique sound of each engine as it passed by the microphone.
While he admittedly signaled crews to blow their whistle where no road crossing was near, what was recorded was indeed "Whistle Artists" performing at their finest! There is no lack of the "Whip-poor-will" on these tapes!

@Big Jim posted:

I have that very nice film in VHS & DVD. It has been a good while since I have watched it and I can't comment on whether or not the sound is in sync. 
I also have the Rods, Wheels & Whistles CD.
On the Bud Swearer tapes, Bud also recorded many tracks west of the grade summit and would let the recording go on until the pusher could no longer be heard. During these times you can hear the pusher pick up speed and change from simple to compound. On at least one track the distant sound of rods knocking overpower the sounds of exhausts! These tapes are also significant because the "canteens" were in use on both engines when double heading. This made it very easy to separate the unique sound of each engine as it passed by the microphone.
While he admittedly signaled crews to blow their whistle where no road crossing was near, what was recorded was indeed "Whistle Artists" performing at their finest! There is no lack of the "Whip-poor-will" on these tapes!

Is there a source for the Bud Swearer tapes that you reference?

I can't get enough of revenue service steam audio.

I grew up in the pre-video age and I learned the joy of listening to sounds while creating the images in my mind's eye. It kills me that so many of today's young people won't even watch black and white visual content, let alone listen to train audio without images.

I still record modern diesels using a Crown SASS-P microphone feeding a laptop via a USB adapter.

Revenue service steam audio was often hard to record before sound movie cameras came along. Recording equipment was very bulky and heavy. Dragging that trackside over various locations couldn't have been easy. That's one of the main reasons Disney and Warner Bros. recorded sounds in-house for their cartoons.

You fellas sure know ur A's from ur J's and just who made what noise.  Hats off for the fascinating read into the composition of historic recordings.  I had assumed such soundtracks would have been made strictly by the railroads rules when in revenue service.  It is obvious to me now that Link likely had say over the tug of the lanyard when the railroad found it convenient.  Please keep the enlightening wealth of knowledge flowing.

Bruce

@Nick Chillianis posted:

Is there a source for the Bud Swearer tapes that you reference?

 

Nick,
I wish that there was.  Mr. Swearer passed away a few years ago and I consider myself lucky to have purchased his set of N&W tapes before he became too ill to produce them. Here is a list, that you can download, of what he had available at one time. I think that the N&WHS has permission to do the N&W tapes, but, I don't know if anyone is trying to get this going or not.

BTW, it has been confirmed by one who helped write one of Link's books that Link was near the Photographer's Bridge when he recorded that particular part of the album.

@Big Jim posted:

Nick,
I wish that there was.  Mr. Swearer passed away a few years ago and I consider myself lucky to have purchased his set of N&W tapes before he became too ill to produce them. Here is a list, that you can download, of what he had available at one time. I think that the N&WHS has permission to do the N&W tapes, but, I don't know if anyone is trying to get this going or not.

BTW, it has been confirmed by one who helped write one of Link's books that Link was near the Photographer's Bridge when he recorded that particular part of the album.

 

Thanks @Big Jim. Appreciate the info, as always.

Bud Swearer's tapes have been converted to CD's by several members of the N&W HS and AFAIK we all have complete CD sets   I did the sound inventory that Big Jim posted so you can see in detail what Bud captured.  There's really some amazing stuff, e.g., a Y6 changing from compound to simple and back again, another version of a Great Whistle Storm, and a Y6 working in simple for a prolonged period.  Historically, it's probably more complete that what Link recorded, although the quality isn't as good.  NWHS got permission to digitize and market the recordings, but there hasn't been any interest in going beyond preservation at the moment.  In any event, all of his N&W recordings are in good hands.

The 16mm camera that recorded live sound on the optical track was the Auricon. I surely lusted after one of those for many years! The Auricon could fit a 400 foot magazine in the 1950s. This would allow about 15 minutes of recording. The Auricon weighed 25 pounds or so and couldn't be reasonably handheld. It was also a line-powered camera--not battery powered. AFAIK, the first top-quality portable (battery) tape (reel) was the Nagra. It was the studio standard. Nagra was around in the late 50's. But it was European and I don't think it made it to the USA until 10 years later. 

Don