Need Advice on Lionmaster Smoke Unit Repair

I've been researching for the last couple of hours on this issue.

Is this what is called a "dumb smoke unit"?

Just ON or OFF for smoke and no puffing capability?

Thanks

Dave

I believe this only has continuous smoke, the regulator is strictly for the heater, it has nothing to do with the fan motor.  This is a perfect candidate for the Super-Chuffer.   No smarts on the smoke unit, and no board to modulate the fan.  The fan is on anytime the smoke unit element has power.

Dave, I have this locomotive and GRJ is spot on correct. The fan runs continuously. I have one of the Super Chuffers units (available from Hennings Trains) and am working up the nerve to install it.

There are some other tricks you can do to this smoke unit to improve it's operation like removing the mesh that surrounds the resistor, enlarging the air intake hole above the fan, and replacing the smoke fluid batting with the "rope" style batting. There is a Lionel video on youtube where Mike Reagan demonstrates how it's done (sorry I don't have the link).

Thank You John and Rich.

I will look into that Super-Chuffer and although I heard about Mike's vid I never had cause to watch it.

I will do so now.

Dave

I have the SuperChuffer in my LionMaster T1 from the same era as yours.  It makes all the difference in the world!

Jon

Does the engine chuff when moving?  On some installations Lionel integrated the Cherry switch to turn on the fan.  When cherry switch closed the fan would turn on. Creating a puff.   Not sure on this model, but others from this vintage like the N&W J worked that way.

Johns Super Puffer would be a better solution though.  G

I have the Lionel 6-38049 LionMaster Class A 2-6-6-4 and it puffs when moving by using the cherry switch which gives you 2 chuffs per revolution. There are adaptations that you can get 4 chuffs per revolution, but the SuperChuffer Board is the best way to upgrade the smoke unit.

Paul, was the cherry switch on your Class A factory installed? How is it activated? I am familiar with the earlier version Warhorse J that used a cherry switch activated by the smoke unit piston lever. In fact, I fabbed up brass bracket so I could add a cherry switch to one of my 736 Berks to signal the chuff with an ERR sound kit. 

Many of the steam engines from that Lionel era just had continuous smoke.  I've done Super-Chuffer upgrades on quite a number of them, including several that I own.

Okay, I found the cherry switch on my Class A. It's located at the rear of the front articulated truck and looks to be triggered by the third set of drivers. I'm guessing there's a cam on the axle. Still, I think this S.O.S. switch only activates the chuff sound with no bearing on the smoke unit fan motor.

I'm about 98% certain you're right, I'm pretty sure that model has just continuous smoke generation.

I bought the engine used so I guess the cherry switch was factory installed. Here is a short video clip I just shot. There are definite breaks in the smoke but very short.

HI Paul,

I have that engine and as GR John says mine is just a constant stream of smoke!!  I wonder has yours been modified  - I watched a video once that showed someone cutting into the smoke unit PCB and bridging in a wire - presumably from the Cherry switch? Anyway I am quite jealous my friend that yours chuffs and puffs!!

Time to buy John's board.................................

MIKE 

Paul, I guess that's the 2%.   It sure seems it's chuffing, but not very visibly.  The interesting thing is that it has continuous smoke at idle, yet I see no components in the parts list that would account for that capability.  It's a mystery how they do it.   It's a dumb smoke unit, and I see nothing else that controls the fan.  Does the smoke always stream when you stop?

Here's a video of one, I don't see any visible chuffing in the smoke.  I've seen where people move the smoke motor common to the chuff switch to get chuffing smoke, but without proper protection, that's been known to kill the chuff input to the electronics.

Yes, John, the fan motor starts running as soon as you give the engine power, even before you "address" it if using TMCC. Fan continues to run when engine is stopped until the power is shut off at the transformer. 

That's a bit odd, does it run even if you turn smoke off with the remote?  It should stop at that point.  I thought for that engine, the fan power supply for the smoke fan is powered from the smoke unit power.  Perhaps they use track power into the fan power supply separate from the heater power, I don't have a diagram of that engine.

FWIW, that's kinda' what the Super-Chuffer does.  I didn't have another input to control the smoke motor, so it runs with smoke on or off.  That doesn't hurt anything, just a little oddity. 

John - mine does that - the minute there is track power on goes the fan and out comes clouds of smoke - addressing the engine has no impact. I have the Lionmaster Hudson and it is the same

MIKE

I don't know what, if any, effect turning the smoke off with the remote would have as I haven't ever tried it. I couldn't find a specific wiring diagram for this loco but did find one that appears to be very close other than some of the wire colors. Look on the Lionel website under service manuals, Supplement 45, page 67. It's generic for a Lionmaster 4-6-6-4 but nearly identical otherwise. 

Well, the diagram on that page is for the older unit with no voltage regulator, it just takes the smoke output from the R2LC and powers the smoke and fan together.  The  I've upgrades a few that have the exact same scheme.   6-38049 LionMaster Class A has a voltage regulator and uses a different smoke unit.

Here's the diagram for the Lionel 6-38045 New York Central LionMaster TMCC 4-6-4 J-3a Hudson #5418, 99% sure this would be the same smoke unit wiring. No puffing smoke in this one, strictly constant on. I have to believe any of this vintage with chuffing smoke were modified.  I printed the page to a PDF file attached.

John, that diagram seems to be a good one. I just went and looked at my engine (the shell is off) and I found the regulator. It's covered with some sort of plastic/rubber sleeve and tucked in next to the smoke on/off switch. Also, the smoke unit drawing resembles the one in the engine. I'll definitely save this diagram, thanks.

I suspect the wiring for most of the same vintage locomotives, certainly the Lionmaster line, will be very similar.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Paul, I guess that's the 2%.   It sure seems it's chuffing, but not very visibly.  The interesting thing is that it has continuous smoke at idle, yet I see no components in the parts list that would account for that capability.  It's a mystery how they do it.   It's a dumb smoke unit, and I see nothing else that controls the fan.  Does the smoke always stream when you stop?

Here's a video of one, I don't see any visible chuffing in the smoke.  I've seen where people move the smoke motor common to the chuff switch to get chuffing smoke, but without proper protection, that's been known to kill the chuff input to the electronics.

The smoke unit comes on when power is applied to the tracks, as to the question on does it smoke when stopped, it depends on where the cherry reed is in it's cycle, most time it does but often enough to notice it doesn't, a little throttle when it doesn't and it chuffs and you stop and it streams while idle. Ill have to pull the shell off, I bought it advertised as new old stock but you never know.

It sounds like it was modified, I don' think Lionel did that.

Mine of course is the 6-38049.

It has a regulator near the smoke on/off switch.

I can turn the smoke off and on via #8 and #9 on the controller.

Smoke is constant at idle or moving.

Now I'm having trouble with the smoke unit motor.  What voltage do these motors run at if tested off the smoke unit?

Are Lionel and MTH smoke unit motors basically the same?

Thanks

Dave

The motors run on 5V max.  I have used MTH motors for Lionel smoke units.  The MTH motors are a bit longer, and the shaft is a big shorter.  The shaft has never been a problem, but there are occasions where the MTH motor won't fit where the Lionel motor is.

If you test the smoke motor with an external voltage, UNPLUG it from the electronics first!

Thanks again John.

Motor tested well........touched the soldering iron to the two motor pins that connect to the top smoke board.  They were loose.  That did the trick.

Lots of smoke now!

Thanks Everyone for all the assistance.........not sure where I would be without this resource !!

Dave

We love a happy ending.

Still needs a Super-Chuffer.

John, Lionel did have models made with cherry switch controlled smoke fan.  Even units with ACREG.  That is the reason the smoke boards 3 pin connector has a solder joint or trace from pin 1 to pin 3.  The smoke fan circuit can be isolated.  If you stop the engine with the cherry switch closed the fan is connected and you would have idle smoke.  IF it stopped with cherry switch open there would be no idle smoke other than a seuthe effect.  The RS 5.0 TMCC J had this set up.

You can tell via where the smoke fan wires go to.  Typically the ground wire on the smoke fan motor goes to the cherry switch.

Not sure how many engines have this.  I agree most do not.  This was a mod for some K-Line too.  G

There were a handful, but the vast majority of this vintage simply had continuous fan and only two wires to the smoke unit, smoke power and frame ground.  The diagram I posted is very common for that vintage.