Need advice re: Lionel Ploar Express set # 6-84328

The chuff in the plain LionChief is generated by an optical chopper in the locomotive that's on the linkage to the rods and smoke puffer.  It sounds like something is amiss there, probably need to remove the shell to see if it's something obvious.

Interesting. I have the same problem with the exact same set.

Not uncommon, usually just a mis-alignment of the tab and the sensor.

Wonder if there's a diagram anywhere so I know what I'm looking for?

If there is, I don't have it.  I just pop the top and look at the optical chopper.  I'm guessing by turning the flywheel and checking the chuff chopper, you should be able to see what is happening.  I don't think there's any wires to the shell of the PE set engine, if there are, it's not many.

This may not be the same problem you are experiencing but the chuffing (actually, all sounds) just stopped while running my 10th anniversary PE set a few days ago.  Upon examining the engine I saw that one of the wires on the engine’s drawbar had broken loose and was no longer under the shrink wrap.  It took some work (the wires are quite small) but I was able to solder the broken wires back to the connector on the drawbar and replace the shrink wrap.  Sounds are working again.

I'll check that also. Thanks!

Thanks gunrunnerjohn! I found that simply bending the tab downward just a wee bit solved the problem. Apparently the chopper wasn't going down far enough to activate the sensor.

That's a common issue, glad it was a simple fix.

I am resurrecting this post which I started last December because of a chuffing problem on my Polar Express LionChief Berkshire engine, set #78-4328.  I delayed looking at this engine until after the holidays but now I have and I am still at a loss as to what is causing the problem.  I have popped the hood on this thing and have looked for the components  that GRJ suggested to check out.  First of all I am not experienced with working on Can motors so I don't what I'm looking for.  Anyway,  I found the motor easily enough and the the flywheel which sits atop of it but I can find no tab or a chuff chopper, whatever that is. I turned the flywheel several revolutions but I observed nothing to tell  me what is going on.  I saw no tabs or anything else moving towards or making contact with the sensors which  I think I see  on the inside of a couple of the drivers(little red bulbs).  If someone could specifically identify where these tabs are as well as the chuff chopper perhaps I could fix this thing but as it is I just don't know what I'm looking for.  Any assistance would be appreciated.

Look up by the smoke unit. Watch the action of the smoke lever while you turn the motor by hand and at the end there is a black blade the moves up and down between 2 black boxes (sensors). The blade must completely cover the sensor to activate a chuff.

There is a arm with a pivot in the middle much like a see saw when you were a kid. One end of this moves a plunger up and down on the smoke unit. The other end of this arm moves up and down between a sensor. In my case the arm wasn't going down far enough to activate the sensor. I bent the end of the arm just a wee bit so it would activate the sensor and hence the chuff sound.

@Phil55 posted:

There is a arm with a pivot in the middle much like a see saw when you were a kid. One end of this moves a plunger up and down on the smoke unit. The other end of this arm moves up and down between a sensor. In my case the arm wasn't going down far enough to activate the sensor. I bent the end of the arm just a wee bit so it would activate the sensor and hence the chuff sound.

I presume you used a pair of needle nosed pliers to bend the arm.  Did you bend it right at the see/saw joint?  That's where I'm trying it and it just doesn't want to seem to bend and I don't want to break it.

@Chuck Sartor posted:

Look up by the smoke unit. Watch the action of the smoke lever while you turn the motor by hand and at the end there is a black blade the moves up and down between 2 black boxes (sensors). The blade must completely cover the sensor to activate a chuff.

Thanks Chuck.  With your's and Phil55'ts advice I have located the potential problem area and it looks like that arm needs to be bent slightly downward to adequately cover the sensor.  I'm in the process of trying it now.  Wish me luck.

Just use pliers and bend it very slightly. Much easier to do if you take the assembly apart

@Phil55 posted:

Just use pliers and bend it very slightly. Much easier to do if you take the assembly apart

Just got back to thus repair this morning.  I followed your advice and disassembled the smoke unit to get to that "arm".  It was easier to bend but unfortunately my chuffing woes continue.  At first I continued to get  intermittent chuffing both forward and reverse but  I'm beginning to think the problem may reside with the on/off chuff switch because I turned it off and the unit continued intermittently chuffing.  After a while it stopped.  I then turned the switch back to the on position and received no chuffing whatsoever in either forward and reverse.  So, currently the chuffing is totally non-functional.  All other sounds work beautifully and the engine smokes up a storm.  At something of a loss here because I'm leary of getting into the wiring for the on/off switch.  I've checked visually and can't see any breaks or worn wires.  Anyone else have any additional guidance.  Help would be appreciated because I would like to get the chuffing sound back.

Sounds like either wiring or the board.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Sounds like either wiring or the board.

Are replacement boards available for this engine?  All I have is the set number but no individual number for the engine.  This may sound stupid but is there a generic board?

The boards are available, but since it's less than a year old, it should also be under warranty.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The boards are available, but since it's less than a year old, it should also be under warranty.

Guess I'll have to see what Lionel can do for me.  Since next Christmas is 11 months away I think they should have adequate time to do the repair and return it to me so I can run it under next year's tree.

You might want to touch up the screws holding the shell to the frame with a black marker or paint before shipping it out.

Sorry you're still having problems. I would agree with sending it back to Lionel.

If the chuffing was working before you took the smoke lever out and now it's not, I wouldn't think it would be the board. Check for a loose plug on the circuit board, loose plug for the sensor  and on/off switch. Possible pinched wire at the sensors, Is the blade paddle dropping down to cover the sensor and then clearing them? Defective on/off switch. Usually when the boards go bad, nothing works.

@Chuck Sartor posted:

If the chuffing was working before you took the smoke lever out and now it's not, I wouldn't think it would be the board. Check for a loose plug on the circuit board, loose plug for the sensor  and on/off switch. Possible pinched wire at the sensors, Is the blade paddle dropping down to cover the sensor and then clearing them? Defective on/off switch. Usually when the boards go bad, nothing works.

I see what you are saying Chuck but after reassembling the engine I still had intermittent chuffing at least for a while .  I got disgusted so I turned the chuff switch to off and noticed that for several revolutions around the layout I continued to get the intermittent chuffing.  Then it stopped.  Then I turned the chuff switch back on and now I get no chuffing.   So , I had some intermittent chuffing after I fiddled around with the smoke lever.  I guess its possible something loosened up in the process and took  a while to work its way completely loose.  I checked for the things you suggested when I had the hood off and found nothing amiss at least as far as my unpracticed eye could discern.  I will, however,  go back and follow your suggestions and see if I stumble on anything.  Can't hurt.   Frustrating.  Oh, also the blade seems to covering and clearing the sensors as it should; again at least as far as I can tell.

gunrunnerjohn - the gift that keeps on giving.  GRJ your advice from almost 2 years ago to fix a PE Lionchief will once again save Christmas.  lol

The optical chopper aligned and chuffing is resolved.  Thank you GRJ

A double-header, some tips are good for a long time.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

If there is, I don't have it.  I just pop the top and look at the optical chopper.  I'm guessing by turning the flywheel and checking the chuff chopper, you should be able to see what is happening.  I don't think there's any wires to the shell of the PE set engine, if there are, it's not many.

https://youtu.be/M4nFSdNNFQw

@OKHIKER posted:

I see what you are saying Chuck but after reassembling the engine I still had intermittent chuffing at least for a while .  I got disgusted so I turned the chuff switch to off and noticed that for several revolutions around the layout I continued to get the intermittent chuffing.  Then it stopped.  Then I turned the chuff switch back on and now I get no chuffing.   So , I had some intermittent chuffing after I fiddled around with the smoke lever.  I guess its possible something loosened up in the process and took  a while to work its way completely loose.  I checked for the things you suggested when I had the hood off and found nothing amiss at least as far as my unpracticed eye could discern.  I will, however,  go back and follow your suggestions and see if I stumble on anything.  Can't hurt.   Frustrating.  Oh, also the blade seems to covering and clearing the sensors as it should; again at least as far as I can tell.

This is a KNOWN thing with this engine. You are looking sorta in the right place but at the wrong thing. Being that time of year, if I see this a lot at the local shop.

Pay attention to the puffing smoke or lack of at the same time. The piston is plastic in the smoke unit and often soaked in smoke fluid. The bore of the smoke unit is tapered from injection molding process so the piston is tighter near the top and can get stuck up. This prevents the smoke lever from cycling as it sometimes needs the down pressure of the piston. Since the lever is not stroking up and down because the piston is stuck up then you may lose chuff because the same lever has the optical flag that causes chuffing but only if it unblocks and then blocks the beam. Again, the piston has a spring that is intentionally light pressure to push it down and out of the smoke unit bore, however, when soaked in smoke fluid and with usage, I find what may have been a loose free fit now becomes tight and tends to get stuck up since the bore is tapered towards the top.

You can clean it (the piston) but I've even seen where it seems like the plastic piston swelled (maybe smoke fluid chemical reaction) so sanding any molding flash or just trying to get a better fit.