Need help/advice on tubular insulated rail (got it close enough)

There is diffinetly a electrical leakage going on.  Did you ohm out the rails on the track??

Marty

I would check your insulated sections one by one. Definitely a leaky insulator somewhere in the block.

Thx for the suggestions.  When I made the rails I checked each section for continuity, and they all passed, but no other checks.  Using Menards track for cheap carpet central, and will admit the crimped areas and stamped ties are sharp edged.  I will re-check each section. Sorry for my ignorance, but help me on the ohm check, where should I place the probs, and what is the nominal value I'm looking for?  TW

The insulated rail should have no electrical path to the ties, you may be able to verify this just by eyeballing the insulators. Have had some early Lionel 072 straights and curves from when they began producing the 40" long ones with an insulator issue and didn't notice that one tie was missing the insulator. Heavy locos would press the rail down, with the multiple ties the lighter ones didn't weigh enough to do it.

I have this lionel dwarf signal and i use lionel fastrack and it does the same thing. I called lionel and need to send it in because there is a problem with it.  

chessie1971 posted:

I have this lionel dwarf signal and i use lionel fastrack and it does the same thing. I called lionel and need to send it in because there is a problem with it.  

Whoa!  That's interesting. Didn't even consider it could be defective. I'll still do all the checks, but thanks for that. Under warranty?  Is there a number(serial) or something I could check?  Ted

First or instead, do a binary search with your insulated rail sections:

1. Replace half of your insulated sections with normal track sections.
   
   
2. Run a train over the newly shortened insulated block.
   
   => If the flickering disappears, you know the bad track is among the sections you just removed.  
   
   => If the flickering continues, repeat Steps 1-2 until all track has been removed/tested.
   
   
3. When you're down to one or no pieces of track:
   
   => If the flickering continues even after all track has been ruled out, test the signal with wires connected directly to your transformer.
   
   => If the flickering disappears at any point along the way, you'll be able to pinpoint the exact piece(s) of track that are arcing.  Reinsulate any bad pieces and re-test the individual section(s) before reassembling the entire section.
   
   

If you're methodical about it, it will take a few minutes, but there will be no doubt.

Steven J. Serenska

P.S. I'm assuming that you're using so many insulated sections because you want to cause the signal to change earlier and to stay on, no matter how short the train.  If the amount of time that the signal changes doesn't matter to you, decrease the number of insulated sections in your block, which will decrease the number of opportunities for an insulator to fail.  

Ted is your signal is the one with the led's and relay. Thats what mine is and hook it up like the manual says but when run train thru insulated track the green like stays dim and red light comes on but the thing i hook the red light wire up to the ground side instead of insulated side works like its suppose to.  

Chessie. I have the standard 148 dwarf. Red/Green led; three wire hookup, red, black and yellow. Red to xfrmr acc +   Black to xfrmr acc -  and yellow to insulated  rail via #2 position on a lock on.  Relay, if any must be internal.

SJS, 1.  My problem with your test is I have no more track.    So, having to remove insulators, then replace them again is not a real attractive alternative. I get what you are suggesting and understand it would be definitive. 2.  Yes, I want signal to stay on for a longer time than a couple sections of track.

Will still perform all tests.   Thx again for all the help. Will report back. Ted

I checked continuity from insulated rail to each tie in block and get no signal(no circuit). Not knowing about the ohms test I did some homework, put selector on 20M and all along insulated rail in each section of track, and, the first to last section, got 0.00.  But, like I said above the relevance of the resistance reading is foggy.

I checked Lionel's 148 Dwarf manual on line.  The manual talks about 4 wires, two red and two white ?  Was the same for both LED and incandescent versions.

shorling posted:

I checked Lionel's 148 Dwarf manual on line.  The manual talks about 4 wires, two red and two white ?  Was the same for both LED and incandescent versions.

Hmmm, starting to get in the weeds here. Took pics of box and manual that came with signal. This is what I have. And is hooked up like the instruction sheet. 

If you connect the red and black wire to transformer, the green light should be on. What does it do if you touch the yellow wire to transformer hot side???

Marty

Martin Derouin posted:

If you connect the red and black wire to transformer, the green light should be on. What does it do if you touch the yellow wire to transformer hot side???

Marty

 

I'll take it apart from the track n test that. I trust I won't get the magic smoke or scorched fingers. 

You should get a 0.00 reading on a section of track, if the insulation is good.   You need to put the probes on the 2 Outside rails.     If you don't get 0.00, that is your culprit. 

So, red/black hooked directly to xfrmr acc(CU), green light. Touch yellow to C, nothing, still green light.(see picture) Hooked up again to acc buss and insulated rail.  Seems it flickers while engines are in block, but when only cars are in block green goes out. See video.  Will leave it alone till I build a layout.   thanks all, I appreciate the help  Ted

TedW posted:

Seems it flickers while engines are in block, but when only cars are in block green goes out. See video.  Will leave it alone till I build a layout.   thanks all, I appreciate the help  Ted

Ted, curing the flicker is why I did this little thing.

Insulated Track Signal Driver

gunrunnerjohn posted:

TedW posted:

Seems it flickers while engines are in block, but when only cars are in block green goes out. See video.  Will leave it alone till I build a layout.   thanks all, I appreciate the help  Ted

Ted, curing the flicker is why I did this little thing.

Insulated Track Signal Driver

And, when it comes time I want it to work flawlessly, I'll buy it.   For now(carpet central) I'll just keep chugging along. (BTW, I did know your device was out there). TW

Edit:  If you want to tighten me up with a kit, I could test it out for ya. 

TedW posted:

shorling posted:

I checked Lionel's 148 Dwarf manual on line.  The manual talks about 4 wires, two red and two white ?  Was the same for both LED and incandescent versions.

Hmmm, starting to get in the weeds here. Took pics of box and manual that came with signal. This is what I have. And is hooked up like the instruction sheet. 

 

Sorry for steering you off the beaten path.  Apparently there are at least three versions of the 148 dwarf.  Are you using one transformer to power both the rails and the dwarf ?  If not, the instructions say the transformers must be phased.

shorling posted:

TedW posted:

shorling posted:

I checked Lionel's 148 Dwarf manual on line.  The manual talks about 4 wires, two red and two white ?  Was the same for both LED and incandescent versions.

Hmmm, starting to get in the weeds here. Took pics of box and manual that came with signal. This is what I have. And is hooked up like the instruction sheet. 

 

Sorry for steering you off the beaten path.  Apparently there are at least three versions of the 148 dwarf.  Are you using one transformer to power both the rails and the dwarf ?  If not, the instructions say the transformers must be phased.

Not a problem at all, Steve. Thanks for checking. I'm a new guy so I need all the help I can get. I appreciate you taking the time. BTW, am using one xfrmr.  It's(the signal) working within my margin of error now.   Ted

Maybe you should use the yellow wire and touch the ground of the transformer Are you using more than one transformer, if so they must be in phase...

Marty

I'm in the process of fine tuning my insulated blocks to serve as a triggering device for the Lionel Double Signal Bridge.

I'm having the same issue mentioned above: when the train enters the block with the insulated rail, the red light comes on like it should, but the green light flickers.

Could the cause of the green light flickering be due to the fact that the insulated block is not long enough?  As a result, some wheels are touching the insulated block and some are touching the adjacent non-insulated track sections.

Could the green light flickering be stopped by making the insulated block long enough so all of the wheels of the locomotive and train cars are only touching the insulated block?

This idea was mentioned to me by a local train buddy of mine.

What do you think?

Arnold

Shameless product plug.

Insulated Track Signal Driver, Rev. 2

Thanks, John, I will consider your product.

When I get back home later, I will only run a small locomotive through my currently short insulated block to see if the green light goes out completely when the engine runs through it. Then, I'll report back. Arnold

The problem of flickering in an insulated section is pretty common, short or long.  Obviously, short insulated sections create more of a challenge as you only have a few wheels making the connection. The issue is simply with one or two wheels making the connection, there are momentary breaks in the connection, same reason that passenger car lights flicker.

There is no issue of spanning between insulated and non-insulated sections, that doesn't cause any issues itself.

Wow, all those cars are leaning as if they are being string-lined through the curve. It looked to me like every car was getting ready to be pulled to the inside of the curve.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Shameless product plug.

Insulated Track Signal Driver, Rev. 2

Hi John:

Below is an image from your "shameless product plug".   


I have some questions:

1. "N/O" and "N/C" means "normally open" and "normally closed", right?
   
   
2. What is the purpose of the "optional power configuration jumper"?  Is this for switching among AC vs. DC power supplies?  On a related note, I would like to run something like this using a ZW and/or Z transformer,  Is this ok?  What are the voltage specs for powering this item?  I don't see any detailed specs on the target link page.
   
   
3. "10 amp relay..."  IIRC, a dual motor postwar lionel engine with a string of illuminated passenger cars will draw approximately 6amps.  Is this correct?  Regardless, is the design of the product intended to support the instant blast of power that would flow to the trailing block the moment the lead train moved beyond the insulated rail section?  I.e., I wouldn't want the act of firing up that many amps all in one go to have the effect of melting down the board.  Please confirm such a use is anticipated.
   
   
4. Finally, I dimly recall that you once offered this item in kit form.  Is that option still available?  I searched for "JW&A" on the Hennings site but didn't see anything like that.
   
   

Thanks in advance for your help.

Steven J. Serenska

@Serenska posted:

Hi John:

Below is an image from your "shameless product plug".   


I have some questions:

1. "N/O" and "N/C" means "normally open" and "normally closed", right?
   
   
2. What is the purpose of the "optional power configuration jumper"?  Is this for switching among AC vs. DC power supplies?  On a related note, I would like to run something like this using a ZW and/or Z transformer,  Is this ok?  What are the voltage specs for powering this item?  I don't see any detailed specs on the target link page.
   
   
3. "10 amp relay..."  IIRC, a dual motor postwar lionel engine with a string of illuminated passenger cars will draw approximately 6amps.  Is this correct?  Regardless, is the design of the product intended to support the instant blast of power that would flow to the trailing block the moment the lead train moved beyond the insulated rail section?  I.e., I wouldn't want the act of firing up that many amps all in one go to have the effect of melting down the board.  Please confirm such a use is anticipated.
   
   
4. Finally, I dimly recall that you once offered this item in kit form.  Is that option still available?  I searched for "JW&A" on the Hennings site but didn't see anything like that.
   
   

#1: Yes, I refer you to the product documentation, Insulated Rail Signal Driver Rev. 2 Documentation.pdf.  The three relay connections are straight from the single set of Form-C contacts on the relay.

#2: The sensor works on AC or DC, it doesn't care.  The jumper is just a convenience to jumper either the power or ground to the common of the relay and eliminate one wire.  It's use is totally optional.

#3: The 10 amps is simply the rating of the board traces and relay.  That give the board the ability to switch track power for an application that might want to do that.  The external circuit connected to the relay connections determines the amount of power draw.

#4: I don't currently have any kits.

This is all very interesting, but on the other hand, the reality is that the trains in our homes are only toys or models, and not the real thing with real people in them.

We can takes our toys and models as seriously as we want. I, for one, am in this hobby for light hearted, amusing, interesting, stimulating and relaxing entertainment, choose not to take my toys/models too seriously, and even find it charming when I get an occasional derailment, flickering light that's not supposed to flicker, or have something else go wrong.

I realize I'm being inconsistent here by bringing up the flickering light. This morning, I wanted to fix the flickering green light. Now, I'm having second thoughts and am more positive about the same flickering light. LOL, Arnold