Need help from jim barrett

May I make a little suggestion Trainman2001,along with Jim Barrett with you might want to tap the resources of Dale H,Dale Manquen and gunrunnerjohn up for a little help also.There are so many others that can also help too on this subject,but these three gentle men have been very helpful,and invaluable for me in the expertise they have provide for on my assorted post.

Bryan

In addition to what Bryan suggests, if you want to post your track plan, you could get some very specific recommendations for your wiring.

As was said there are some very experienced folks on the forum.

Another invaluable resource if you are going the DCS route is Barry's DCS Companion. Available as an e-book, or in printed version.

Rod

Just got back from an extended trip to the East Coast and our old haunts. Drove Philly to L'ville in one shot to get as far away from Sandy as possible. We usually stay overnight halfway in Clarksburg, WV, but Sandy could bring some strange weather to the WV's mountain regions so we kept going and got home okay. I was able to read your answers to my posts, but couldn't get my iPhone to bring up the "Submit Reply" box.

Here's the layout which is also published on the lengthy build thread I'm running on the layout design forum.

The turquoise blob in the top left is a wall that juts out. Any wiring must reach the back side through the orange bridge in the center or around the end loops. The middle is going to remain open for obvious reasons. the lower right section is going to be a swing out section on casters and a piano hinge, so wiring won't go through there either. In fact, I'm going to have to design an interlocking scheme so the power is cut off on either side when the swing is not locked closed.

In it's previous iterations, the layout was cab control. It was divided into 30 blocks each being able to be powered by either the left or right hand controls on my Z4000. With the new layout, I still want to isolate the outer and inner loops, and the yard tracks, since only 5 of my 17 engines are either DCS or TMCC. The rest are conventional PS-1 or QSI. While conversions are planned, I have no immediate projects to do that. I have no post war Lionel trains.

The layout is 38' X 15' and the control panel location will be as shown on the top picture.

"The turquoise blob in the top left is a wall that juts out. Any wiring must reach the back side through the orange bridge in the center or around the end loops. The middle is going to remain open for obvious reasons. the lower right section is going to be a swing out section on casters and a piano hinge, so wiring won't go through there either. In fact, I'm going to have to design an interlocking scheme so the power is cut off on either side when the swing is not locked closed."

You may want to use a reed switch or micro switch to activate a relay coil and let the relay contacts switch multiple  track and accessory circuits. A time delay could be put in with a timing module ,if desired to delay power activation for a bit after the section is closed if desired.  Also switching loads with relays on larger layouts can simplify panel wiring,described here

www.jcstudiosinc.com/BlogShowT...=635&categoryId=

Dale H

You're right. Relay systems are a good way to go. Unfortunately—for me—I never spend enough time with them to ever really learn them. There are digital systems that can do the same thing, I believe. Relays work reliably for years and up until the advent of micro-circuits ran almost everything. What's a good source of information and supplies to use them?

A relay is really just an electromagnetic switch. A little bit of power works the coil and the contacts switch heavy loads. Consider it a wired remote controlled switch controlled by a light duty toggle or push button.  Modern digital systems have not completely replaced electromechanical relays,which are still used to switch on or stage motors or heavy loads etc. Some of the primitive logic and complicated switching formerly done by relays have been replaced by PC chips.But relays themselves are not antiquated especially for switching high amperage loads.

A lot of command controlled devices have relays in them. The infrared track detectors by Lionel and MTH also have them for example. PW tenders have special relays which activate the whistle so they have been used a long time.

Here is a post on how to activate track side accessories using the third rail. Really cheaper and more reliable than solid state electronics. 

www.jcstudiosinc.com/BlogShowT...=410&categoryId=

Here is a post on relays used with a common timer used for various timing functions.

www.jcstudiosinc.com/BlogShowT...=481&categoryId=

Ebay is a good source sometimes for surplus relays. The cheapest relay you can use is the 12VDC automotive relay. Costs about $2 and has a SPDT 30 amp or more contact set. These will work off any 10 VAC  supply source with a bridge rectifier. This alone will switch most any load encountered in model railroading. For track power use at least 10 amp contacts.  I dont have those but If you get stuck I have various relays I can sell at my cost. They are not that hard to learn about,use and wire up. Not sure exactly about all you wish to control.

Dale H

Here is a thread long ago discussing relays

https://ogrforum.com/d...ent/2415514336584189

Dale H

Rod, I've downloaded that book, but haven't read it yet. I intend to do so shortly. Thanks!

I read the first page and all I saw was a discussion about the gauge of wire to use for a layout, but I persisted and got to page 2 and there it was. It was a good discussion on relay use, but frankly, it almost overwhelms me. Right now, my immediate need would be to develop a circuit that would shut off power to the swing out and the tracks leading to and from it. It might be nice to have an annunciator on the control panel that would show a red indication if the "door was ajar", but that would be a luxury. I do understand that relays would be the way to go since you could have a very low voltage microswitch or reed switch to detect the "non-locked" condition and that would control the power shut off to the blocks. It could also change the state of block signals on the main line running to the bridge.

Dale, maybe we could take this off-forum since others may or may not care about the nitty gritty details of the alignment of the these circuits.

I am wiring the layout for DCS so I'm going to use 14-16 gauge twisted pair for the power wiring. Based on your information, you suggest controlling all that heavy gauge stuff with relays, not direct switching. On my previous layout, I did use DPDT toggles to directly control all 30 blocks. It used a ground loop so only one wire to each block was switched on one side of the DPDT, the other set was used to illuminate either a red or green indicator on the panel to signify which control was acting on the block. This system worked well and was fool proof. The switches were well-rated for the current load and I didn't lose power anyway on the layout. But, there were no interlocks or latching circuits. What trains were doing and where was entirely up to the operator, so if switches were mis-aligned, it's too bad. Once the layout is entirely digital, I imagine you could program the DCS to do the same things as the relays would do. I'm a long way from that since most of my engines are conventional and will be that way for a while.

 "Right now, my immediate need would be to develop a circuit that would shut off power to the swing out and the tracks leading to and from it. It might be nice to have an annunciator on the control panel that would show a red indication if the "door was ajar", but that would be a luxury. I do understand that relays would be the way to go since you could have a very low voltage microswitch or reed switch to detect the "non-locked" condition and that would control the power shut off to the blocks. It could also change the state of block signals on the main line running to the bridge."

All this can be done with a micro switch and a relay or 2 with multi contacts. Have the microswitch work the relay and the contacts can turn on or off as many devices and circuits as desired. Its not about voltage,it is about amperage and switching multi circuits. I would put a time delay from when the swing out is closed and when the trains restart. 

"Once the layout is entirely digital, I imagine you could program the DCS to do the same things as the relays would do. I'm a long way from that since most of my engines are conventional and will be that way for a while."

Not really,DCS has nothing to do with the swing out,in fact it complicates things. In fact if you cut power to the trains, then restore it the engines will not remember their last command and just sit there. You will manually have to command them to resume.

  Command systems have other shortfalls. Collision avoidance without operator attention is very difficult to do with a command operation. Current command design is relatively a stupid system in some respects as it has no positioning system as far as determining where each of the trains are in relation to one another and where it is on a loop. If power to a command engine is shut off in a block for collision avoidance,it has to be manually reset by the operator as it forgets its last state of operation. In conventional the engine simply resumes when voltage is restored if it is locked in forward.

There are unnecessarily computers put on each engine which do not interact with one another and work together as a total layout system. This non unified design approach really is looking through the wrong end of the telescope. With a reliable positioning system the whole layout could be run off one computer or a PLC and all that would be needed in the engines would be slave boards,sensors and transmitters. The sound system (singular not plural) could also be stationary,mounted under the layout with room for large speakers.  Multiple speakers could simulate distance and direction. This could be plugged into a quality sound system,not restricted by size. Engine sounds of numerous prototypes could be easily programmed in and changed.

   Other electrical approaches are also tedious and over complicated. To activate a crossing signal when a train approaches, for example has nothing to do with DCS, again since there is no positioning system incorporated in the design. MTH offers a TAD, which really is a IR circuit that activates a relay enclosed. This device is expensive,more complicated, unreliable,and much less flexible than a simple relay wired with the insulated rail method.

My layouts (I am building a second one) are conventional. I do not use command,not because they are too advanced but rather because they are not advanced enough and the design is poor. Also I have numerous engines and the cost of conversion would be prohibitive. I can also buy second hand engines at a fraction of what they cost new. This is not to say that command systems are neat and have a lot of advantages. What is being offered now is really not state of the art.

For DCS switching with relays or switching with toggles makes no difference,both will or can be made to work. However using smaller lengths of wire to track with more direct routing and less bends and kinks would lessen the chance of signal loss on larger complicated layouts and simplify wiring. Wire by itself has capacitance and if a very large amount was used it might also affect signal since DCS has signal issues with capacitance in the circuit. Lastly shorter wire has less voltage drop than longer runs and heavier wire is more costly. What you spend on relays you will likely save on wire. 

Dale H

I'm a bit confused here.  If you connect either of the TIU variable channels to your power district, you can run conventional trains on that power district, and without changing any wiring, run DCS trains on the same loop, just not at the same time.

"What do you know about setting the track loops up for dual feed? Having a switch that would take a TIU in or out so a given block could either run by conventional or digital at the flip of a switch."

Glad you got the relay. RadioShack is a bit expensive but the relay should work if it has 10 amp contacts. I have some delay on timer modules but they need 18 volts to work. I think RS relays ,if it is the one I am thinking of is 12VDC. They should also have micro switches in the drawer.  Sorry I dont use command and can not help with that aspect of it.

Dale H

Thanks guys,

I just finished reading the DCS manual cover-to-cover and I'm still confused. I'm going to post a question on the DCS forum. I read one place that you have to designate a loop to be TIU fixed wired from the fixed voltage output posts OR wired as a variable loop from the variable voltage posts. But then I read that you can select fixed or variable output on the DCS controller, and if that's not confusing enough, I read about  Z4track where you can bypass the TIU control and manage voltage directly to the track. What track? Is that the track that previously was wired from the fixed voltage outputs? If so, it answers my question that conventional engines can still be operated on dedicated DCS tracks through this feature. Or... do I have it wrong?

Trainman2001;

You can indeed run conventional on a DCS equipped track, I do it.

There are three methods that work, just in different ways.

First way, Big Toggle switch (10 amp contacts) that is Double Throw. Center contact to Center rail, one outer contact to TU output, other direct to transformer.

When the switch is one way the transformer controls conventionally.

Switch the other way and you are on DCS control. (Set transformer at 18V for this side)

The second way is more confusing, using the Variable channels on the TIU you can control track voltage with the TIU variable channels. This lets you run Conventional with a remote control. Just jumper power to Fixed 1 in as well as the variable channels. The Fixed 1 input is where the TIU gets it's internal power. (Optionally you can get a small AC power supply that plugs into the Aux Power port in the TIU, then you can skip hooking up Fixed 1 in.)

I advise getting Barrys Book on DCS, it's a treasure trove of info and has far more and clearer data than the DCS manual.

The Third way is the Z4K control mentioned, that requires the Z4000 transformer and the Remote control option (MTH part # 40-4001) for it. Then the Z-4000 remote can control the voltage out of the Z-4000 and you don't need the toggle switch.

I'm not sure but the DCS remote may also interface this receiver in which case you can get just that part (40-4002). In any case this requires a Z-4000 transformer at the start.

I hope this is clear, I'm a bit foggy from a migrane tonight.

Feel free to email me for more details if needed.

I have the z4000 and the z4000 remote receiver already, so in that regard I'm ahead of the game. I also got an answer from Barry on the DCS forum which kind of says the same thing. With this information, I'm going to proceed wiring for DCS and Legacy/TMCC. I like the z4track method, rather than the big toggle switch, but there's time to make that decision.

Meanwhile, I'm getting busy designing the control system for the door latch interlock. I woke up thinking about that this morning. I want to have a block signal in front of the swing out gate that will show green when the track is fully interlocked and door closed and latched, and red when the door latch is released. Besides being cool looking, it will serve a real purpose to make sure that whenever the gate is closed the door is latched.

Trainman

If you want a time delay use the first basic circuit here.

www.jcstudiosinc.com/BlogShowT...=481&categoryId=

There is also a picture of a multi contact relay.  You will need one contact set for the block signal,and one set for each track loop  or block that has to be shut off (switched through NO contacts). So you might need 2 DPDT relays depending on how many track loops go through the gate. If you don't want time delay,just use the relays. A micro switch can enable the circuit and an 18 volt transformer tap could power it. Power could be cut off to the loop or a block,when the gate is open. In the latter case the trains on the rest of the layout would keep running until they reached the gate area.

Dale H

Dale,

I'm reading all sorts of stuff on using 555 timers to delay the turn on of track power after the swing-gate is closed. I'm running as fast as I can, but I'm still not getting anywhere too fast. I know you're the guy to help turn my lights on.

Is the relay coil energized when the door is closed or when it's open? I'm asking this because I wonder about the duty cycle of the coil. Do they receive power constantly. 

For example: if the microswitch is released it does what? Does it energize the relay or de-energize it? If it can do either, what's the recommended scheme? If you add the timer, you don't need it to de-energize the track, you only want it to have effect to delay the re-energizing of the track after say, 2 seconds.

I think these questions make me sound like a moron...

You can buy relays that have a 100% duty cycle coil, so that particular issue is moot.

Trainman

Micro switch is NO (normally open) When the door is shut the micro switch is closed. The micro switch (or switches in series if desired) is in series to a relay coil or coils powered by a transformer tap.

When the coils are energized the relay N.O. contacts are closed the relay N.C (normally closed) contacts are open. Multiple circuits can then be switched on or off or both. A block signal could be changed from green to red. One or more track circuits could be switched on when the door is closed. So when the relay coil is energized the track power is on through a set or sets of NO contacts The relay coils are made for continuous duty and will not burn out. They will each use 1 watt of power or less depending on the relay.

So when the door is closed the track power would come on immediately. When the door is open track power would be shut off.

Now if we put the optional adjustable delay on make timer module in series to the relay coil say set at 10 seconds. When the layout is powered the track power will come on after 10 seconds and a block signal will go from red to green. If the hatch is opened the relay coil will drop out and the track power (to one or more block section or entire loops)  is immediately disconnected and block signal go from green to red. When the door is closed after 10 seconds the track power will come on and block signal change back.This delay would give you time to get situated and inspect things after you replace the hatch.

The module has a settable adjustable pot and requires no wiring at the chip level. A 555 circuit would require a PC board,555 chip,7812 regulator, a few diodes and resistors a 1000uf 35 volt capacitor and a .1 uf capacitor to work a 12VDC relay. Time delay is 1.1RC. If you go that route I may have a circuit in my notebook. I do not work at the chip level any more unless I have to,my eyes are not what they once were.  I have relays and timers in my parts bin as pictured in the link,I could send at what they cost me plus shipping.  You would need an 18VAC power source such as a transformer tap to work the relays and optional timer.

If you add more relays you could use block detection, warning you that the train(s) is on or near the hatch and not to open it.Not sure you need this.

Questions are fine,that is what the forum is for. It is a moron that does not ask and just plows ahead. I never read directions before assembly of something , I consider it cheating so I am a qualified moron.

A proud AAM member

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LBasxQ9Nyc

However electrical things work best if wired correctly,best to follow the diagram.

Dale H

In other words, I think I should get one of your timers...

Where in the world did you find that "moron" clip? I, unlike you, love to read instructions. As a serious model maker, I'll build a model in my head five times before I open the glue. As a result, I build some pretty major models. See below.

Both of these took 13 months each. There's about a thousand (or more) extra pieces of brass and details on the Missouri that came with the kit. The masts are hand-built out of brass so they will hold up for the long haul. Without instructions and lots and lots of research, they wouldn't exist. But, I do ask questions.

Tell me what I have to do to get one of the timers.

Trianman

If you can do models you can sure wire things from a schematic,you are indeed talented.   I am not that good at models . Love B17s,saw one at a bicentennial airshow.

Youtube is full of amazing clips,just go on and type in subject,all kind of things pop up.

Just Email me let me know what you need. I have everything but the microswitch,RS should have them.

Dale H

Trainman,

Also, be aware that when you use the microswitch/relay to de-power the track headed for the door, there is a DCS issue to address.

When you re-power the track, the engine may have a problem coming up in DCS mode because it will not receive a watchdog signal.  I know this has been discussed on the DCS forum.

just an FYI,

Ed

Is there a short answer to this problem? If needed, I'll research it on the forum, but I'm not even sure how to ask the question. An interlock is not essential, but it would make me feel a lot more secure knowing that a speeding train can't head into the abyss when the "bridge is out".

Not coming up in DCS mode isn't the end of the world, it comes up in conventional in neutral.  You can then just address it with the remote and shut it down.

Okay, I'll keep moving ahead. Dale H sent me the rectifier and timer package to work with the relay and switches. I putting the finishing touches on the door design and how I'm going to latch it. The latches I keep finding look a little light but they could work if the rest of the structure and joinery is sound enough.