Need Help with Atlas O RS-1 with TMCC/RS

Similar RS1, eventually I had to clean the wheels with a solvent soaked Q-tip to remove as much paint and residue from track contact surface as possible.  Strange that the electrical contact problem was with common not hot, though hot roller contacts are cleaned often. Eventually Atlas  re-did the hot contact rollers with (4) pick-ups.  First of the Train America Studio EOB,  Engineer On Board, electronics.  There appears to be modification to the modular boards. Large capacitor added.    Caps. were added, in many models, to stabilize/bridge over intermittent track power and electro-coupler problems. 

The owners manual has a lot of information about EOB adjustments with a handheld Cab1.   A link to the EOB install manual that has all the information about settings, and operation.   Click on the underlined link. 

Arcing at the wheels can also indicate a grounding issue. Are both of your outer rails tied together? I have some engines that don't pick up a decent ground when entering an insulated block due to traction tire placement on a leading wheelset. I would also continuity check the ground and pickup roller leads. Mike's link will be very helpful for checking out the EOB function and performance.

Mike, thanks very much for the information.  Just finished reading through the TAS/EOB documentation that you provided the link to....   Obviously this TAS/EOB circuitry is what's inside this locomotive.   The motherboard pin out diagram on page 37 was most helpful and clears up any confusion I was having about the missing plugs, missing selector switches.   

So a quick question, was the TAS/EOB likely installed by Atlas during a changeover to newer or different TMCC control system, or was this probably installed by the owner, or someone contracted by the owner to upgrade it ?  

I am kind of asking because the owner's manual talks about the Smoke option... Fortunately for me, I don't run many of my smoke units anymore, pollutes the air,  and I'd rather have the optional speed control, and 128 step speed control.  I did notice when I powered it up that it crawled at a much lower speed than I was anticipating, a great feature for a road / switcher engine! 

Obviously, there is no room under shell for any smoke unit, the circuit boards appear to be right up to the roof, which also explains why the antennae has been moved to the cab area.

I will thoroughly clean all the wheels and pick up rollers today, slip the shell back on and see if the arcing is reduced, or eliminated....   I just cleaned all the track about 2 weeks ago and really haven't run the trains but once, so the track should be good.   

Norm,  thanks for the suggestions.   The answer about outside rails for the most part is "no," not connected, as I using isolated blocks to run all block signal heads.   I will do the continuity checking on the HOT and Common(ground) connections....   

For testing purposes, I should probably also put a freight car in front of and behind this engine as it runs through isolated blocks to see if that reduces the arcing issue, not a cure, but a test that might yield some useful information.  

 I had this engine from the first run of the RS1's.  It wasn't a very good runner and was promptly sold. It came with I believe a TAS SAW board. This engine had about 7 usable speed steps. The engine should have been geared better. EOB came out a bit after the first runs release. I thought of going that route and upgrading but didn't want to dump more money into it to get it to run better. The process of just taking the shell off with mentioned hard to access screws were enough to sway my decision.

 The EOB was either added by the owner or chances are was upgraded by TA Studios. If you got a good deal on the engine they were well done with good detailing. Hopefully the wire nick was your issue. Touching the chassis it can travel through the trucks right to the rail.

chris a posted:

Mike, thanks very much for the information.  Just finished reading through the TAS/EOB documentation that you provided the link to....   Obviously this TAS/EOB circuitry is what's inside this locomotive.   The motherboard pin out diagram on page 37 was most helpful and clears up any confusion I was having about the missing plugs, missing selector switches.   

So a quick question, was the TAS/EOB likely installed by Atlas during a changeover to newer or different TMCC control system, or was this probably installed by the owner, or someone contracted by the owner to upgrade it ?  It appears to be, and was quite possible as -2 model, about 2003-5 EOB was stock available from Atlas new.  EOB did change a couple of times through TAS's history.   

I am kind of asking because the owner's manual talks about the Smoke option... Fortunately for me, I don't run many of my smoke units anymore, pollutes the air,  and I'd rather have the optional speed control, and 128 step speed control.  I did notice when I powered it up that it crawled at a much lower speed than I was anticipating, a great feature for a road / switcher engine!  Yes, the 128 step speed control is very nice, You have to be patient moving the big red knob on the Cab1. 

Obviously, there is no room under shell for any smoke unit, the circuit boards appear to be right up to the roof, which also explains why the antennae has been moved to the cab area.

I will thoroughly clean all the wheels and pick up rollers today, slip the shell back on and see if the arcing is reduced, or eliminated....   I just cleaned all the track about 2 weeks ago and really haven't run the trains but once, so the track should be good.   Best wishes with your project.  

Dave_C posted:

 I had this engine from the first run of the RS1's.  It wasn't a very good runner and was promptly sold. It came with I believe a TAS SAW board. This engine had about 7 usable speed steps. The engine should have been geared better. EOB came out a bit after the first runs release. I thought of going that route and upgrading but didn't want to dump more money into it to get it to run better. The process of just taking the shell off with mentioned hard to access screws were enough to sway my decision.

 The EOB was either added by the owner or chances are was upgraded by TA Studios. If you got a good deal on the engine they were well done with good detailing. Hopefully the wire nick was your issue. Touching the chassis it can travel through the trucks right to the rail.  Owner added EOB would have a poor, printed on paper, tach-strip that was added to the flywheel, which from the picture appears to be the case (left motor) .   Tach strip from factory installed EOB had the flywheel with the tach strip built in.   If the  two control switches where not installed that would also indicate  an owner installed system.    

 

 

I had the PRR RS-1 with factory EOB, it was probably the second run. Like Dave said, the gear ratio was very steep so EOB certainly helped with slow speed cruising. The two pickup rollers stunk when trying to crawl through turnouts. I sold it mostly because of the paint scheme (late version with large cab numbers). 

Chris, the freight car in the same block could help. Sometimes my Kadee conversions can help my engines  by providing a ground path through the couplers, depending on what's hooked up. 

I got one of these RS-1's in the early 2000's equipped with EOB like the one you have. It came with a smoke unit so the previous owner of yours either removed it or as someone speculated retrofited it with the EOB system. Anyhow my RS-1 was a terrible runner, constantly losing power with sparking from the wheels. I talked to Bill Santerelli at Atlas about it many years ago and he said these engines had a problem with the power continuity through the wheels (something wrong with the wheel material maybe). He suggested cleaning the wheels thouroughly and putting their conductive lubricant on the wheel treads. I did it and it really helped for a short while. The engine ran very well with the clean, lubricated wheels and clean track, but leave it sit for a couple of days and the problems came right back. I had a dummy Atlas engine that came with an extra spare sets of geared wheels so I changed out the non traction tired wheel sets on the RS-1 with these spare sets (this is no small task). The wheel sparking went away and I got a good, consistent power connection from the track through the wheels. However, now I had problems picking up power from the center rail because the engine only has two pickup rollers. The center rail and rollers had to be kept clean frequently for it to run reliably. For some reason I have always had problems with reliable power pickup from Atlas 2 roller Master Line engines from all the 2 roller Trainman line and I'm using Atlas track. Never had problems with the 4 roller equipped engines. Because it was so unreliable my RS-1 was a shelf queen for overa decade.

Earlier this year I found a cosmetically damaged Atlas RS-1 with EOB and 4 pickup rollers. I bought it and swapped the trucks from the damaged engine to my old RS-1 (again no small task). The engine runs great now, just as good as any EOB equipped Atlas 4 pickup roller engine. However it took a lot of time and effort to achieve this. My guess is you have an engine with the poor wheelsets. You can probably get replacements from Atlas but to make it run reliably you need the additional pickup rollers. These engines are bears to disassemble and work on so unless the roadname on the engine has some special meaning to you I'd send it back and get my money refunded.

Ken

I have an RS1 with factory installed EOB. I have not had the arcing issue but lost both couplers to zinc rot. This ranks as my all time worst engine to work on. Nice detail but what a PITA. Ken has my respect for going as far as swapping wheels.

At many motorcycle rallies they have a bent valve award for someone who had the most difficult time getting to the rally due to mechanical breakdown. If there was one for trains I would nominate Ken.

Pete

Thank you very much to everyone who shared a lot of really valuable information....  I did the continuity checks, after thoroughly cleaning the 4 drive wheels without tires....  the conductivity through the wheels is suspicious even after thorough cleaning.  Can't believe it took me almost 40 minutes to get the shell back on, the antennae set which was cobbled together with tin snips was a nightmare, definitely not a factory antenna, looks like someone thought it was a good idea fabricate a double layer antennae !!   One lead from the lower mother board to the upper board was scary close to the heat sink on a component on the upper board, I pulled the board and slipped small piece of heat shrink tubing down the leads coming from the bottom board to the card connector so the heat sink couldn't contact it.   

I am going to test it now, to make sure it still runs, and see if the arcing is any better, but it's going back as it is definitely "not as described."   Again,  I really appreciate all the insight....  I'll post one more time after the road test, but then it's going back in the original box.   

So the last update on this character building experience.   Engine is running, actually pretty darn good.  Arcing/sparking is gone for now.   Reprogrammed the EOB,  put it back to 32 speed steps and disabled the Cruise control.  Everything is working and now that it's back to 32 speed steps, the brake sounds and functions are restored. 

It's a lot more user friendly, set the minimum speed to 3 on a scale of 1 to 8  per the instructions.   

It's still going back for a full refund,  it's just finicky in several spots, slows down, stalls, and none of my other TMCC or Legacy Steam engines have any issues in those same areas.... 

Thanks again for all the help !  

I believe that was a side product of 128 step mode, the brake sounds are lost.  If you have cruise disabled, it will have varying speed, nature of the beast.

 At the time. The DCS remote only supported 32 speed steps. TA when they designed the cruise board with !28 steps. I think it was done with a workaround so you could use the DCS remote. Each push of the boost or brake button changed the speed step by one. You basically could run these engines without using the thumb wheel. 

I never liked TAS' non cruise mode nor did I like their SAW board very much. The startup voltage at the first speed step was very high for the EOB system with cruise off and for the SAW board. In EOB it was only useful for troubleshooting. I like the EOB 128 step mode since the first speed step can be attained by hitting boost from start. 

I still run quite a few engines with EOB, both factory and aftermarket that I've installed over the years. In fact I have a fully powered ABA set of PRR Erie Builts on the way, all with EOB. Should be fun and maybe I can get them set up in a couple weeks.

GRJ:  Is there a viable upgrade path for this older Atlas O RS-1 Diesel locomotive currently available, or in the near future,  with ERR going through ownership transfer ?     I only run TMCC and Legacy with your new signal booster unit.

As soon as the Cruise Commander and RailSounds Commander products are again available from 3rd Rail, you should be able to fit those in place of the TAS setup, I've done several of those.

Norm Charbonneau posted:

I never liked TAS' non cruise mode nor did I like their SAW board very much.

Sure Norm, now you tell me 

Seriously, the motor drive circuit was not much different than the Lionel TMCC drive circuit.

Regards, 

Lou N

I thought the SAW board was almost exactly the same logic as the Lionel, both were pretty basic.  Four triacs, four opto-couplers, and a handful of resistors. 

SAW gen2 was the real problem.  A lot of glitz, and ideas but no back bone.  Eventually to EOB with 8 amp circuit boards, that would handle the model train, rolling contact/derail insanity.  IMO.  

Lou, didn't mean to sound so harsh! It did work great in my 3rd Rail Decapod with its ~32:1 gear ratio. It was certainly good for its time, and then EOB came along. I still have it somewhere. Would make a command control good turntable drive I'd think. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I thought the SAW board was almost exactly the same logic as the Lionel, both were pretty basic.  Four triacs, four opto-couplers, and a handful of resistors. 

Yes, exactly.  One version had a few extra parts to stimulate the railsounds diesel roar into tracking the motor voltage.  That diesel roar was a real PITA to make work.

Lou N

Mike CT posted:

SAW gen2 was the real problem.  A lot of glitz, and ideas but no back bone.  Eventually to EOB with 8 amp circuit boards, that would handle the model train, rolling contact/derail insanity.  IMO.  

Too bad about SAW gen 2.  The PIC on that board was loaded with all kinds of special features like firebox flicker, Mars light, ditch lights, etc...   Never got to use any of it.  It also went squirrely in conventional. 

Lou N

Yep, I remember the diesel version, didn't it have an IC VCO on the board?  The SAW board I have has a bunch of missing parts and an IC, I seem to recall that was on the diesel version.

Norm Charbonneau posted:

Lou, didn't mean to sound so harsh! It did work great in my 3rd Rail Decapod with its ~32:1 gear ratio. It was certainly good for its time, and then EOB came along. I still have it somewhere. Would make a command control good turntable drive I'd think. 

Harsh; not at all Norm.....

Compatibility was a big issue way back. 

And know that I always enjoyed showing your smoke unit videos to anyone who would watch and listen!

So the story begins like this.......... This guy Mike shows up at my house, puts two boxes on the dining room table and says "I want this (MTH box) to talk to that (TMCC box).  And you know the rest of the story.  

Lou N

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Yep, I remember the diesel version, didn't it have an IC VCO on the board?  The SAW board I have has a bunch of missing parts and an IC, I seem to recall that was on the diesel version.

Yes it did.  And even that did not work so well.  The one I did for RoW worked much better.  I took the motor voltage into a VCO that controlled the prime mover roar digital clock speed.  A technique copied by QSI and PS1.  TMCC needed low frequency pulses from the hall effect sensor like a steam loco chuff.

Oh the marvels of electronics!

Lou N

Yep, they finally fixed that with the later RS boards.