Need Help with Car Wheel Spacing

I do believe 3 rail's gauge is off a little bit. But I can't remember all the subtleties.

Try that wheel gauge on your track and see if it matches the outer rails.

With 3 rail and the need to go around a tighter radius. The wheel flange is a little more inboard than a 2 rail wheelset. The difference is made up in the width of the tread. I would probably try to make a simple gauge by filing a couple of notches or just modifying what you have with a file. Use a well running truck as a guide. There were some posts on gauging the Menards wheels. I think Gunrunner John had a simple method that worked well.

An old, Sears/Craftman, automotive battery terminal puller.  As mentioned three rail a bit tight.  Some of the cross and switch parts that direct the wheels through a switch can cause wheels sets to ride, up and over switches, causing a derail. 

Don't adjust your wheels using that gauge.

I mistakenly bought one and ran into the same problem.

https://ogrforum.com/...nmra-standards-gauge

They are only for 2-wheel O Gauge and not 3-wheel.

NMRA should really straighten all that out.  I almost made a serious mistake using that gauge.

John

"NMRA should really straighten all that out." Why, as this not really a NMRA problem because as has been previously stated multiple times this gauge is for 2 Rail Scale Modeling. Also while I'm not certain, but, I believe the 3 rail manufactures do not adhere universally to NMRA standards. At least they do not advertise conforming to NMRA standards.

I think the NMRA does have standards or recommended practices for 3 rail on their web site.

The track gauge is the same for 2 rail and 3 rail - 1 1/4 inches.    3 rail mfg may tighten their wheel gauge I guess.    I was not aware they did.

I can run any of my 2 rail cars on 3 rail track IF the rail top is flat (not round tubular) and the track is in gauge.

Here is a link to the NMRA standards listing for "large scale flanges"    It might help.

https://www.nmra.org/sites/def...4.3%202010.02.24.pdf

@BillYo414 posted:

I do believe 3 rail's gauge is off a little bit. But I can't remember all the subtleties.

Try that wheel gauge on your track and see if it matches the outer rails.

The gauge fits the out rails. Thanks

@Mike CT posted:

An old, Sears/Craftman, automotive battery terminal puller.  As mentioned three rail a bit tight.  Some of the cross and switch parts that direct the wheels through a switch can cause wheels sets to ride, up and over switches, causing a derail. 

That's what mine does, they ride up the short circuit. Can I get a picture of your puller?

Your cars are derailing going through a switch because the wheels are probably riding up on the guard rails.  There is a lot of "slop " built in to 3 rail trucks to compensate for the tight curves and tubular track. I use the same NMRA  gauge to get the wheels closer to track gauge.  This brings the flange closer to the rails helps the cars track better .

I'm going to check some of my other more expensive cars to see what comes of it. Thanks for all the replies. If someone has a link to the threads on the Menards cars please post that up too.

@modeltrainsparts posted:

"NMRA should really straighten all that out." Why, as this not really a NMRA problem because as has been previously stated multiple times this gauge is for 2 Rail Scale Modeling. Also while I'm not certain, but, I believe the 3 rail manufactures do not adhere universally to NMRA standards. At least they do not advertise conforming to NMRA standards.

There isn't a separate one for 3-rail O Gauge.

I have one for N Gauge and HO Gauge neither of which are confusing nor straightforward.  So I buy (the only one available)  for O Gauge and it only fits 2-rail.???

Doesn't that sound like a problem?

John

It may be your problem, but not the NMRA's as their gauge is for 2 rail scale modeling. It is like buying a can of motor oil marked only in liters, adding oil from it to a car who's instructions and dipstick give oil quantities in quarts not liters, and then complaining that the can over filled the engine!

@Dave_C posted:

…I think Gunrunner John had a simple method that worked well.

Regauging Menard's Boxcar Wheels The Easy Way

I went back down to my train room and checked some more of my cars. This is what I found:

The gauge fits within the outer rails just fine. It's hard to see but it fits, perfectly.

Then I checked my Lionel UP Box car.

Then on to my Lionel Expansion Pack Passenger car.

My MTH Chessie Caboose.

Finally I check my vintage Lionel 3461 Dumping Log car. This suprised me....

So in conclusion, Some where down along the line, the width of the wheel sets changed, OR my Log Car is a fluke. Seems I need to make a gauge the fits the majority of my best running cars. Mainly ALL of them except the current Menard cars. If I follow the Standard NMRA Gauge I should be good with that as well, according to my log car. I get 2-rail and 3-rail are different, and 2-rail follows the Standards. But with my Fastrack being a flat rail I think it should work. But you all are more of the experts than I am. What say you?

@modeltrainsparts posted:

It may be your problem, but not the NMRA's as their gauge is for 2 rail scale modeling. It is like buying a can of motor oil marked only in liters, adding oil from it to a car who's instructions and dipstick give oil quantities in quarts not liters, and then complaining that the can over filled the engine!

At least a can of oil states what it is for, the NMRA O Scale Gauge does not. It merely says O Scale. Chris and I can't be the only ones confused by this.  Have you looked at one?

John

@Training Wheels posted:

Regauging Menard's Boxcar Wheels The Easy Way

Awesome, Thank you so much!

@modeltrainsparts posted:

It may be your problem, but not the NMRA's as their gauge is for 2 rail scale modeling. It is like buying a can of motor oil marked only in liters, adding oil from it to a car who's instructions and dipstick give oil quantities in quarts not liters, and then complaining that the can over filled the engine!

Looking at his picture, doesn't it just say "O" gauge? It doesn't seem to mention for 2 rail scale rather than 3 rail tinplate unless I missed it. More like an oil can without a volume listed?  Probably time for the NMRA to catch up and make one?

Bobby, Mine doesn't have a suitable recess for a third rail/pick-up roller so when I open my eyes and look at it I can clearly see it's for two rail. Duh!!!

I found this NMHA Standards on the 'net. No difference between O-27 and O gauge.  Please see the attached. Please let me know what you all think.

I just emailed the tech-chair at NMRA about the standards for 2-rail, 3-rail and O-27, and why the gauges wheren't cut for the center rail.

This is what I wrote;

"Request to know if there is any difference in the Standards between O Scale/Gauge 2-rail,  3-rail and O-27?

I currently have one of your NMRA “O” Standards Gauge. It does not have a provision cut for the center rail for 3-rail or O-27.

Is this a mistake or are these track gauges strictly for 2-rail track and cars? The reason I ask is, the gauge or the literature does not differentiate between the 3 of them."

We'll see if I get a reply.

@BobbyD posted:

Looking at his picture, doesn't it just say "O" gauge? It doesn't seem to mention for 2 rail scale rather than 3 rail tinplate unless I missed it. More like an oil can without a volume listed?  Probably time for the NMRA to catch up and make one?

Indeed.  Even the vendors who sell these aren't aware of the NMRA making a gauge for 10% of the O Gauge market and not making a gauge for 90% of the O Gauge market and then not even stating that on the gauge itself.

Certainly when you buy one you are unaware of this and then when you receive it you have to figure it out or it's somehow your fault???  Who would even assume that the NMRA would make a gauge for all N Scale, All HO Scale, and then an O Scale Gauge for the smallest percentage of the market and not one for the largest and then not even state that?

I would venture a guess that most of the people who bought these have them (hopefully) stored in a drawer somewhere or (worse) adjusted their O Gauge wheels using it thereby misadjusting their wheelsets.  

John

It seems to me that if you move the wheels too far out that you will negate the purpose of the "fast angle" wheels.

But the inside of the wheel flanges have to be wide enough to fit thru the switch guard rails

@gftiv posted:

But the inside of the wheel flanges have to be wide enough to fit thru the switch guard rails

Correct!!!  This is the issue at hand. My Menards cars ride up on the guard rails, causing a de-rail.

@Steinzeit posted:

Finally I check my vintage Lionel 3461 Dumping Log car. This suprised me....

So in conclusion, Some where down along the line, the width of the wheel sets changed, OR my Log Car is a fluke.

********************************

Yes -- it was the introduction of MPC's "Fast angle wheels" that moved the flanges inboard a bit, and subsequent tinplate 0 followed that.  Lionel postwar equipment with its wheels rotating on the axles was more tolerant of 0 scale track, specifically turnouts, except where flange depth was crucial.

BobbyD:  Are you an NMRA member ?

SZ

So when Lionel did this, did ALL of the manufactures follow suit?

I found this and it explains alot about the wheels themselves.

Fast Angle Wheels | O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum (ogaugerr.com)

Time to bust out the files and modify my track gauge!

@gftiv posted:

But the inside of the wheel flanges have to be wide enough to fit thru the switch guard rails

Did you read what I said? Did you notice the bold italic lettering?
"...if you move the wheels too far out that you will negate the purpose of the "fast angle" wheels."

@Craftech posted:

Indeed.  Even the vendors who sell these aren't aware of the NMRA making a gauge for 10% of the O Gauge market and not making a gauge for 90% of the O Gauge market and then not even stating that on the gauge

John

Because it's a standards gauge, and 3 rail has no real standards.  If there were we would all be using DCC,  semi scale or traditional would go away,  every model locomotive and car would be true 1/48 based on drawings or blueprints of the prototype. There would be no mixing of 1/43,1/48 and 1/50 on or layouts. And all cars would be properly weighted for ideal tracking .

There are some NMRA standards in 3 rail for height and width clearances but nothing for the rest of our segment.

Fast angle wheels are good. BUT, if they don't go thru the switches and derail, they are No Good. This requires the wheel spacing needs to accommodate both requirements, going thru switches properly and fast angle tracking. You are trading off fast angle performance to get the wheel to go thru switches by widening the width of the wheel set.

@third rail posted:

Because it's a standards gauge, and 3 rail has no real standards.

And there's the problem.  Some manufacturers follow NMRA standards and some do not and some change with the wind and the rain and the phase of the moon.

Adjust whatever your wheels are to work on your track - make your own gauge based on your track and use it to set your wheels. 

BTW, all my 3 rail stuff works just fine on my handlaid 3 rail track following NMRA standards,

I did receive a reply from NMRA on the track gauge. Please see below. My reply follows that.

Chris,

          I ran this past my Mechanical Manager, and he tested the  O Scale Gauge on his O27 track. He reported the following:

“I have never seen a standards gauge for O-27 track. I just checked a section of O-27 track I have with an O scale NMRA gauge I have, and there is no interference with the center rail with the gauge as it
is the same height as the outer rails. The tangs for checking gauge work just fine.”

I hope that helps

Andy

My Reply;

Andy,
Thanks for getting back to me about the track gauge and the O-27 tubular track.  But, my main question was about the wheel spacing. Lionel had developed “Fast Angle” wheels sets way back in the past. Which from what I understand, the wheel sets are narrower, slightly, so the rails ride in the middle of the wheel. If you follow the link (below) to my O Gauger post, you’ll see what I talking about. I bought some freight cars from Menards and they would derail going through the switches. I discovered that the wheels sets were to narrow to go through the guard rails.

Need Help with Car Wheel Spacing | O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum (ogaugerr.com)

This lead to a huge discussion on the site. I have since notched my track gauge to match the majority of my cars and have readjusted the Menards cars wheel sets, and now they operate just fine.

Is there only one track gauge for O, 2-Rail and 3-Rail? If it was designed only for 2-rail, Why isn’t there a gauge for 3-Rail? Inquiring minds would like to know, and it’s not just me.

Thank you for the reply, which was unexpected. Never thought I’d get a reply.

Thank you for the time

V/r

Chris

@mwb posted:

And there's the problem.  Some manufacturers follow NMRA standards and some do not and some change with the wind and the rain and the phase of the moon.

Adjust whatever your wheels are to work on your track - make your own gauge based on your track and use it to set your wheels. 

BTW, all my 3 rail stuff works just fine on my handlaid 3 rail track following NMRA standards,

Would you say 37mm [CORRECTION:  27mm]  from inside flange to inside flange is a good ballpark distance?

John

@Craftech posted:

Would you say 37mm from inside flange to inside flange is a good ballpark distance?

John

I'm asking the NMRA right now.

The NMRA track gauge for O 3-rail and O 2-rail is identical - 1 1/4 inches.    It is hard to notice on tubular track, but if you put the gauge on flat top track like Atlas, the gauge works to check track gauge.  

I received another email from Andy @ the NMRA. I'm leaving out all of the fluff and just posting the meat of the email.

This is the New NMRA, More responsive, more inclusive, more committed than ever before. I apologize if you think we would not respond, but Chief to Chief, know this, if you ask I will answer. It may take a minute for us to research, but you will get an answer.  The answer to your first question, “Is there only one track gauge for O, 2-Rail and 3-Rail?” the answer is yes, only one. With respect to the second question, “Why isn’t there a gauge for 3-Rail? “ You make a good point, adding the “Notch” would not detract from the gauge’s functionality. This may well bear looking into. It may be time for an updated version of the gauge. I will have my team review the idea and inform me. Thank you for providing this information.

We have had some discussion on wheelsets so adding this should be interesting.

And there you have it, straight from the NMRA Standards Manager's fingers.

@prrjim posted:

The NMRA track gauge for O 3-rail and O 2-rail is identical - 1 1/4 inches.    It is hard to notice on tubular track, but if you put the gauge on flat top track like Atlas, the gauge works to check track gauge. 

As it does with the Fastrack. Main question is the wheel spacing.

I agree with Craftech. I measured both Lionel and MTH and that was the result.

@Craftech posted:

Would you say 37mm from inside flange to inside flange is a good ballpark distance?

John

Okay, Sorry, you lost me. What are we measuring that's 37mm?

@Jayhawk500 posted:

Okay, Sorry, you lost me. What are we measuring that's 37mm?

From the inside wheel flange on one side to the inside wheel flange on the other.

John

CORRECTION:  27mm NOT 37mm