Need to repair or replace NIAGARA CAB APRON....some suggestions?

They are unique and also a poor design which is why they break. They can be fabricated but still subject to fail because they cannot move above horizontal. If you have grades or small bumps in your track the tender will ride up, hit the deck and since the deck is not strong enough to lift the back of the engine, it breaks. Lionel made the new one stronger but didn't really change the design much. 

If you have any MTH or 3rd rail engines with decks, notice how they are made. Most are a simple design that can pivot nearly 180 degrees. Not too hard to fabricate with some brass sheet, tubing, and couple of eyelets and music wire. Precision Scale has brass diamond plate for an even better look.

Lionel should have brought in more decks for the Vision Niagara to replace the hundreds that have broken so far.

This style would be a better replacement.

Pete

Great job Pete; can you post a picture of the underside?  Plan to duplicate yours; thanks much; Falcon70

where can you purchase the brass diamond plate? and what size music wire?

At Precision Scale  Co website

This is .032 music wire and diamond plate with rolled hinge points on the back of a custom MTH/ Lionel N&W J ......diamond plate come from precision scale, .......I just snipped to ears from the flat stock brass diamond plate an rolled around the music wire to form a loop....then I drilled two tiny holes in the back of the cab for the music wire to slide into, tiny dab of epoxy, a little touch up work, and it’s done.........Pat

As Pat illustrates, lots of ways to skin a cat. Here is a pic of an apron done for another engine made in the same way as my pic above. The tubing I use is 18 gauge hypodermic tubing along with .025" music wire. The tubing is soldered to the brass plate using zinc chloride flux. Most of my upgrades use this method. There are no plans. each one is different. I just couple the engine to the tender and measure the space between the back of the cab and the tender beam and add an 1/8' or so.

I have made a couple using Precision Scale working hinges. My last trip to the PRR Railroad Museum I noticed a few engines used barn door hinges. This is one I made for my Commodore Vanderbilt. Cut a piece to fit the cab floor and epoxy in place.

I made this for my Niagara. Despite its apparent simplicity its time consuming to make which I why I avoid offering this service to others. Not enough time to do my own stuff.

Pete

Great stuff Pat and Pete; Falcon70

Norton posted:

As Pat illustrates, lots of ways to skin a cat. Here is a pic of an apron done for another engine made in the same way as my pic above. The tubing I use is 18 gauge hypodermic tubing along with .025" music wire. The tubing is soldered to the brass plate using zinc chloride flux. Most of my upgrades use this method. There are no plans. each one is different. I just couple the engine to the tender and measure the space between the back of the cab and the tender beam and add an 1/8' or so.

I have made a couple using Precision Scale working hinges. My last trip to the PRR Railroad Museum I noticed a few engines used barn door hinges. This is one I made for my Commodore Vanderbilt. Cut a piece to fit the cab floor and epoxy in place.

I made this for my Niagara. Despite its apparent simplicity its time consuming to make which I why I avoid offering this service to others. Not enough time to do my own stuff.

Pete

 

The one Pete made for the Vandy is absolutely phenomenal....stunning detail....kinda puts my rolled hinges to shame....great work Pete!...............Pat

Yes Guys, the "APRONS" do look fabulous.I've always heard them referred to as "DROPLATES".

Why the Giants who sell the trains with the GIANT price tags don't  put them on every engine over $500.00,we"ll never know.And why are they designed so poorly?

These "Droplates" are on the prototypes, and they serve as the Safest Walkway between the engine and tender.When not in use, they probably have some kind of metal hook to Drop the Droplate down,(when not in use)and I'll bet they used the same hook to pick it back up and LOCK it into a SAFE Operating Position.

This is ALL speculation on my part.That **** thing had to be Heavy,if anyone knows how they raised and dropped the "Droplate" or "APRON",please let me know how it worked on the real prototype engines.

I recall that Even "ERIC" of Eric's Trains wanted to add several more "APRONS"or "Droplates" to his vast Steamer collection.He had a friend nearby who made them, but like everyone else, the guy did not have much spare time to do a quantity for Eric!!!!  

Here's a relatively SAFE opportunity for someone to offer this service professionally,I am certain the demand is out there to install these for guys who are too busy making money to do it themselves !!!No Boards to fry, no smoke units to fix, no sound files to download, just pure craftsmanship and attention to detail!!!  

These "Aprons" or "Droplates" do add a whole other level of detail to the trains, and they were on MOST of the Prototypes.If anyone does know how they raised and lowered these on the real trains,I'm a history buff, and would like to hear how the real engineers and firemen used these "Aprons",and how did they physically lift that heavy plate???  

Nice topic.Nice add on detail, that should be added at the factory, or at least have parts available for guys who want to install their own.Parts are becoming a bigger and bigger problem these days,If it were me making the trains,I would look at parts like a auto dealer does, as a whole other source of income.

Postwar parts are abundant,but I remember guys telling me stories, that not so long ago,(25-35 years ago),they had to buy 3 post war trains to make 1 good one.

Maybe soon, someone will start making repops of Command engine parts, and they WILL FIT,and we can all repair our beloved MTH&Lionel modern trains, that are stalled out, waiting for boards, and any other component they might need!!!!  

That day WILL COME,it's just a matter if we'll be ALIVE to see the repro market for these  20-30 year old trains spring up.If the hobby is to continue strong, it's going to be a necessity .

Things like operating engines are going to need maintenance sooner or later.If they get used frequently(which they should),parts to get these trains up and running again at an AFFORDABLE PRICE are eventually going to come into the market, just like they did for the Old Lionel Engines we all grew up with.   I can still DREAM???right????  again, your thoughts on this???

I rarely run with the "Aprons" or "Drop Plates" up as I've already had one break, so I realize that don't stand up to any abuse.  I have them up on the display shelves, they don't get nearly as much abuse there.

Mine on my CC Niagara is broken as well. I'm going to go with GRJ here and not bother getting mine fixed. As it is now, it is only attached on one side. Most likely when I take it out for operation it will fall off the rest of the way.

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Mine on my CC Niagara is broken as well. I'm going to go with GRJ here and not bother getting mine fixed. As it is now, it is only attached on one side. Most likely when I take it out for operation it will fall off the rest of the way.

If you have all the pieces they can be epoxied together. Now when I run mine I leave the plate in the dropped position. Its only up when displayed.

Pete

Norton posted:

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Mine on my CC Niagara is broken as well. I'm going to go with GRJ here and not bother getting mine fixed. As it is now, it is only attached on one side. Most likely when I take it out for operation it will fall off the rest of the way.

If you have all the pieces they can be epoxied together. Now when I run mine I leave the plate in the dropped position. Its only up when displayed.

Pete

What brand or epoxy? I'm slowly getting around to using stuff like CPA glue and other such stuff than using the old plastic solvent glue that would make you need windows open if in a small room.

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Norton posted:

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Mine on my CC Niagara is broken as well. I'm going to go with GRJ here and not bother getting mine fixed. As it is now, it is only attached on one side. Most likely when I take it out for operation it will fall off the rest of the way.

If you have all the pieces they can be epoxied together. Now when I run mine I leave the plate in the dropped position. Its only up when displayed.

Pete

What brand or epoxy? I'm slowly getting around to using stuff like CPA glue and other such stuff than using the old plastic solvent glue that would make you need windows open if in a small room.

The original JB Weld is about the strongest. Let it cure for at least 24 hours. The 5 minute JB Quik is nowhere near as strong.

Pete

Thanks for all the great replies/pics   BUT   no replies yet where/if the replacement Lionel cab apron #620-8069-069 (Lionel showing not available) can be purchased   OR   if maybe another Lionel steamer cab apron will fit the Niagara  OR  someone that makes this item.

W&W posted:

Thanks for all the great replies/pics   BUT   no replies yet where/if the replacement Lionel cab apron #620-8069-069 (Lionel showing not available) can be purchased   OR   if maybe another Lionel steamer cab apron will fit the Niagara  OR  someone that makes this item.

It's interesting, I know some time back there was none, but earlier this year I swear that it was available. I wonder if I caught something else that was and missed that? I think I had viewed it from my laptop and not my phone. Makes me wonder do they ever get new parts in for old stuff like that?

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

W&W posted:

Thanks for all the great replies/pics   BUT   no replies yet where/if the replacement Lionel cab apron #620-8069-069 (Lionel showing not available) can be purchased   OR   if maybe another Lionel steamer cab apron will fit the Niagara  OR  someone that makes this item.

It's interesting, I know some time back there was none, but earlier this year I swear that it was available. I wonder if I caught something else that was and missed that? I think I had viewed it from my laptop and not my phone. Makes me wonder do they ever get new parts in for old stuff like that?

This part is also showing unavailable on Lionel website for all the new Vision Line Niagaras.

Still looking for source for CCII Niagara cab apron.   Anyone have a source for buying this??