New Challengers...What do you think?

Here are some photos:







Carl

I got both of mine on Tuesday and opened the boxes and ran them on Wednesday. I have one identical to yours and the Grey one. The black one started up fine with railsounds smoke etc and move slowly down the track. With each curve the railsounds would cut out and come back on when it hit a straight track. I isolated the problem to the wires leading to the infrared detector in the locomotive. I took it in today to be repaired. The other Challenger has performed flawlessly. One thing that the box states is that they have engineer and firemans figures. None of them do. But the Arttista figures with a seat glued to them fit through the windows and I super glued them in place neatly. They look great! I am very please with their performance.

Carl WINS with the first pictures. S Gauge WINS with a great looking chooch! Looks really good!

Maybe Carl will grace us with video. (Pretty please?)

Was at my LHS yesterday, mine hasn't com in yet .

Rusty

That is one fine looking locomotive! Can't wait to receive mine

Ughhhh...where are MINE at????

Carl,

Please post a video so the poor souls who have not gotten their toys yet can REALLY see what they are missing.

Ben

What do I think?

If I read these posts correctly, then 2 of the people who have received their engines, and who have shared their experiences so far, have had issues (problems) with their locos.

I think we deserve better than that for a model that costs close to a grand.

Mark in Oregon

You are correct Strummer for what we paid they should be totally reliable out of the box. I have 60+ year old Flyer and 25+ year old American Models locomotives that perform well to this day. I know none of the new Lionel stuff will have a operational record like that. Even my Big Boy from a couple of years ago is going into the shop as its slow speed operation has become very herky jerky and the rail sound chuff stopped working completely after working very poorly. But with a few exceptions most of my recent "new" locomotive purchases have been American Models of S-Helper. They have proven to be reliable, smooth performers.

The more gizmos you have on a toy locomotive the greater the likely hood that one of them will fail.

I must say the new Challenger Carl pictures is beautiful but it also resides on one beautiful layout. A few of us, members if Badgerland S Gaugers, were priviledged to visit this layout and enjoy the hospitality of this craftsman. Thank you Carl for allowing us visit you S Gauge empire and letting us pick your brain for info hopefully we can apply to our own layouts.
Ray

quote:

Originally posted by Carl Tuveson:
Here are some photos:







Carl

quote:

Originally posted by Major:

The more gizmos you have on a toy locomotive the greater the likely hood that one of them will fail.

All this techonology in model trains is a two-edged sword. It was the stuff of dreams when I was a kid and seems to be a nightmare sometimes.

It's funny, but if you follow the 3-rail side, you see the same type of complaints about electronics reliability, then the obligatory threads about someone who's had absolutely no problems and want even more features crammed into their trains.

MY HiRail/Flyer stuff doesn't see a lot of milage, so I can't proclaim myself an "expert" on high-tech choo-choo's. But, I'm still eagerly awaiting my Challenger.

However as far as my scale stuff is concered, I've got locomotives that are straight DC, DCC or DCC with sound. Even though my DCC stuff has proven reliable, I find myself operating my straight DC stuff the most.

Rusty

I also run the most the locomotives with the least amount of features and have the least amount of added sound. One feature the new challenger has is a volumne control for the rail sound chuffing. Being able to adjust it is a great option! Too much chuffing gets annoying after a while. I can only take just so much smoke before it gets turned off also! The New Challenger like the Big Boy can smoke you out of a room!

Heck I even like running smoke in tender Flyer locomotives with the smoke off because the early Flyer runs so smoothly and quietly. On other TMCC and Legacy locomotives you can do a shut down that turns off the sound and then run the locomoties with out sound or smoke. I have done this a lot of times just to make things quieter. I even tend to run less the Flyer locomotives with horns and Whistles because of the constant buzz.

Well I have received and run both of my Challengers. While I dont have a lot of run time on both, no running issues and all the bells and whistles seem to be in working order. Both look SPECTACULAR!

My LHS called and said my Challenger's in. (UP Gray) Yay!

Unfortunately, I won't be able to get up there until Friday. Boo-hoo...

Where'd I park that time machine???

Rusty

I hope everyone else has better luck with their new Challenger than I did (Gray UP). It was a complete and total LEMON. It jack rabbit started and ran forward about 3 feet when I barely turned the Cab2 red knob. It then went backward for a second and suddenly full-throttle by itself, hit a curve, and tipped over even though again the Cab2 red knob had been turned only slightly. From then on it blew a fuse (7A fast-blow) at about 7.5VAC every time I tried to power it up. After 4 fuses and different locations on the layout I quit. It was a complete and total certifiable DOA dud. How disappointing too for an otherwise great looking, expensive, and much awaited engine to be such a piece of junk. I sent it back to my dealer. Not for repairs and there are no replacements. I'm done with Flyonel engines for awhile. I cancelled my order for a EL U33C while I was at it. I have been faithful about buying new TMCC and Legacy engines and sets from Lionel and patient with the fact that all but one has eventually required something get fixed (smoke unit, chuff switch, RailSounds, marker lights, etc.), but none have been a complete and total failure from the start like this Challenger. Inexcusable. Maybe they’ll improve later releases like their Mikados and Pacifics which received refinements along the way. Time will tell now. At least for me. Enjoy yours. I hope it runs well and does so for a long time.

Sorry to hear there are some Challengers with issues.
It is a nice loco but some unfortunatly will have problems now and then.
Mine had a smoke motor that quit. Easy to fix but still a failure.




For more photos and a review go to:

http://www.tuveson.com/challen...f_the_challenger.htm

Carl

Thanks for the review, Carl.

Rusty

I now have about three hours of run time on My one Challenger. Locomotive has performed smoothly at all speeds and the rail sounds have sounded great. I do not normally run the smoke unit as the amount it produces becomes irratating. (It is too much of a good thing) So it is not likely that I am going to burn it out anytime soon. The Challenger in my opinion runs better than the Big Boy since as Carl pointed out both motors have cruise control. That I did not know but I saw the effects as both motors ran at the same speed and tended to stay in sync much better than the Big Boy. This makes for smoother operation.

I did notice that the pilot coupler was upside down but that was an easy fix as it is screwed in place. The pilot's coupler compartment opens and has a dummey coupler that swings out. The size is larger than Kadee's but too small for Flyer. Another dummy coupler is included with the engine. While there is sufficient swing in the coupler to the locomotive's left there is none to the right due to the open coupler hatch blocking the movement. If you remove the hatch cover you could possible double head these locomotives. The extra dummy coupler appears to mount the the rear of the Tender as a bracket and screws are included with the locomotive.

Now that I’ve had a chance to play with it a little, I still find the Challenger an impressive locomotive. Granted, I’ve only been running it up and back on a test track for now, but at this point, everything seems to be in working order.

I have a hybrid DCS/TMCC with the old Trainmaster command base, so I can’t take advantage of the Legacy features. The basic features are there, including an annoying array of “cab chatter.” Plus, it seems like Legacy has moved some of the functions around on the DCS controller.

Maybe it’s just my perception, but the Challenger seems to operate a little better with the Odyssey control switch off.(at least with my system.) With the Odyssey switch on, it seems the locomotive leaps to a start. With the switch off, starts appear more gradual and smooth.

As I’ve run the Challenger out and back, there appears to be no mechanical issues with my loco. The two motor drive does offer one advantage, it’s neat watching the driver sets going in and out of synchronization.

Smoke… Lots of it. Good for mosquito abatement. I also find smoke annoying and turned the smoke unit off.

Sound… Also very good. Whistle is deep and throaty. The bell is clear with the steady clapping of an air ringer. The tender provides a good resonance.

Cosmetically, I only have three gripes: 1, The gray versions should have an oil bunker instead of a coal load, 2, The dark gray stripe should extend on to the cab and 3, I was wondering why the numbers looed schrunched on the headlight numberboards, thenn it hit me:


The headlight numberboards should read 3977, not X3977. X3977 is OK for the train indicator boards.

All in all however, it's a keeper. Deep inside me I'd like to see Lionel offer steam with scale wheels, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

Rusty

Carl or anyone else with Legacy -- how does your Challenger run? Particulary with standard speeds selected (e.g. Restricted, Slow, Normal, etc.)? Mine, while it briefly lasted, took off fast in forward and then reverse (Odyssey II on) with the throttle eased on and blew out never to run again when I tried Restricted Speed -- held the upper left key down briefly, heard "3977 you may proceed at Restricted....) and poof. That's all she wrote.

Would someone please post a video of a Challenger running at a slow speed. Thanks. There are now a few on YouTube, but the engine is running fast, often far from the camera, and it appears with smoke off. Would be nice to see it at slower speeds, closer up, smoke on, and ideally with the ash pan flicker mentioned. One other thing, does a banner run across the top of your Cab2 when you address a Challenger and/or press a button for it to do something? Not sure that's supposed to happen or not. Thanks.

Sgaugian,

It may be that your Loco's antenna has shorted to the chassis or is not plugged into to the motherboard correctly?

If you reduce the track voltage to a safe speed (9 volts or more) does the whistle still work with the Cab remote.

If not, then the receiver is in the conventional mode not command which can happen when the antenna is faulty.

Also I don't use the "standard" speeds options as I have found that they are not calibrated to many locos correctly and are useless.

Also the loco "slow" starts best under Legacy with the momentum set to medium.
When used with a Cab-1 the slow speed start is not very smooth since it has 32 speed steps.

Mine has the banner in the display also.

Carl

Here's a video of the Challenger on the my layout.

Carl - That's spectacular!!!

I don't know what I enjoyed more: the engine, the layout, or the quality of the video. All together, one of the best I've seen in a long time.

I do like your signal bridges!

Carl,
Thanks for the info and video. Great to see yours not only looks terrific, but runs beautifully as well. Mine is the gray one that briefly ran erratically and then fried. It does not allow more than 7.5 VAC before blowing a 7A fast blow fuse. At that point there is considerable heat near the cab exterior about where the vertical silver plates with two black screws are in your inside view photo. Very disappointing. What did you need to do to yours to make the smoke unit work? You mentioned a simple repair. Smokes like no tomorrow now. I use Cab2 standard speeds just for fun like push-button throttle control. Was curious if your Challenger responds properly to them. It was the last command sent to mine before it checked out. Thanks again for sharing this with us. Fantastic layout as always.

Sgaugian,

Sounds like you have a bad DCDS-E driver board?
It's under warranty, get a RA number from Lionel and send it back.


I tried the Standard Speeds and am not impressed. The rolling start worked but step one does not. I do not see how these speeds can be accurate with locos having different gearing and driver sizes and motors. ??

I have never used standard speeds on my locos with any degree of accuracy.

Maybe I am doing something wrong but just went by the book.

My smoke motor was defective and I replaced it. Lionel will send me a new one when they get some in stock. (I can do my own warranty work as I am a Lionel Authorized Service Tech.)


Carl

The smoke unit on my BB failed after about 30 hours of run time with a motor problem. The top bearing had excessive wear and seized.

I purchased several motors and other bits for the smoke unit from Lionel as an insurance policy for the future after I repaired it.

Perhaps Carl can tell us if the smoke units in the Challenger are the same as in the BB, if they are then I should be OK if that fails.

Regards,

Neil

Neil,

They are the same except for the motor.
The challenger motor is a bit shorter...

But I used one from a BigBoy and it works but sticks below the frame a bit.

I don't think the clearance issue will be a problem but it is close.

However.. I think the longer motor will have more puffing power?

Carl

Carl,

The replacement motors Lionel sent me a couple of months ago for the BB are shorter than the original, seems OK but time will tell.

Regards,

Neil

Another superb video, Carl.


Rusty

Carl,
Thanks for the info on smoke unit motors. Sounds like maybe the BB unit is now the shorter Challenger motor as well. I like standard speeds just for fun. They're a novelty like feedback on the remote. I'm not sure how accurate they are in terms of matching specific scale speeds. Sorry to hear 1-Step does not work with the Challenger. That's my favorite with the BB and the engine shows off impressively with it. Set the train brake to its minimum, click 1-step, then bring up the train brake and watch and listen to the beast labor out of the yard with a slow heavy chuff and puff. Folks love it. Me too.

UKaflyer or Carl,
What part number is the Big Boy smoke unit motor? They're only showing the entire smoke unit for $35 each and none are presently available. Thank you.

I believe the part number is

6101154130 at $6 each

I also ordered a fan/impeller, part #6108057225 and screws #6208320133

Regards,

Neil

Neil,
Thank you. Here's what the Lionel site shows for the motor part number. Look familiar? Diagonal screw holes? Thanks.
6101154130 DC MOTOR / MINIATURE FAN / DIAGONAL SCREW HOLES

The motor looks the same, can't remember about the diag holes, it was 3 months ago.

If I can, I will try and dig out my BB, it is packed away at the moment and have a look again.

Thanks. Months ago I purchased a couple of BB smoke elements (resistors) and wadding to keep on hand as those might fail or mat down eventually, but did't think to get a motor or two. Good idea. I would think vertical holes as opposed to horizontal holes, but diagonal? Let me know what you discover. Thanks.

It looks like the Challenger smoke fan is in stock:
6108057240 DC MOTOR / MINIATURE FAN / HORIZONTAL SCREW HOLES
Without a parts breakdown of the Challenger yet this is an educated guess though.


The BigBoy fan which is longer is out of stock:
6108057220 DC MOTOR / MINIATURE FAN / HORIZONTAL SCREW HOLES

Carl

Thanks Carl for those clarifications. I'll keep an eye out for the Challenger parts posting, but if you become aware of it please let us know. Thanks.

Recieved mine when everybody else did. The Rio Grande is different than catalog, no white walkway stripe, gray color on front boiler instead of pictured silver and no cab figures. Works great, sounds and low speed operation are awesome. Slow startup is so realistic that each single chuff seems to be syncd with a puff of smoke. Only trouble was the bell fell off during operation but it just pressed back on. There is actually a tiny plastic clapper on the mount. I use a Cab2 controller in coordination with a 996 bridge and 24130 powermaster in order to run either tmcc or conventional on the same track. Looking to add another 24130 for a second loop and incorporate an older OMS american models sound controller to hopefully actuate AM and railsounds equipped engines.

Rich

Rich,
Great to hear your Challenger runs well. I hope you get to enjoy it for many years to come. I use TPC400s with AF 30B transformers to run either Legacy or conventional. To activate AM sounds no OMS box is needed.