New Development/ LionChief - FlyerChief

This is a step in the right direction, if they can't fold TMCC into the mix.

If I recall correctly, this was mentioned on the last York presentation video, if not then on the 3-rail side.  It's planned on being able to handle up to 3 locomotives.

It's something the 3-rail side's been after since the inception of LionChief.

Rusty

I think TMCC is a dead issue.  They built Legacy to replace TMCC.  LionChief and FlyerChief are completely different from Legacy in their technology.

When did Lionel start offering the repair classes again?

Yep, it was displayed (demoed?) at April York and covered by Derek in one of his fine podcast interviews with Lionel.

Rusty is correct. This is not 'news'. Matt Ashba readily mentioned this during last York. Unfortunately, it nor the engines are not being tied into Legacy. This is an exceedingly klutzy arrangement for those who have already implemented the TMCC/Legacy control system. Lionel needs to get back to offering some premium Legacy AF trains beyond the highly compromised Berks.

Bob

The lack of the "Chief" operating systems not being compatible with TMCC/Legacy has been beat to death several times on the 3-rail side.

It's one of the things Lionel marches to its own drum on and the beat's not going to change. 

However, it's my understanding that if one has TMCC/Legacy powering the track, (or any fixed voltage) the "Chief" locomotives will still operate with their own assigned remote.

Rusty

Your understanding is quite correct. However, is one supposed to have  the extra remotes dangling around one's neck with a string? The low rent Berks are a disappointment for many of us.

Bob

I think the "Low Rent Berks"  are a great thing.  People will be able to get them at less than half the cost of a "High Rent Legacy Engine".  This will encourage new buyers who would never pay $900 for a steam engine.

If you look at the O gauge catalog 2/3 of the newer engines at LionChief and less than 1/3 are Legacy.  When I talked with Matt Ashba my feeling was if the Breks sell well a lot of FlyerChief will be our future.

My guess is like O gauge, expensive Legacy Flyer engines will be by order only.  Meaning prices will be higher.

Well, we haven't heard of any cancellations for the low rent Berks (did we just coin a new phrase?) so hopefully preorders went well.

The telling thing will be if dealers will be willing to stock the individual locomotives besides the the Polar Express sets.

Rusty

I have heard that the preorders for the 5 Berks is down from what Lionel expected. However, I cannot reveal the source unfortunately.   It is anticipated that once buyers get the PE and see its look and operation preorders will rise.

So, it appears Lionel keeps expecting the S market to be a clone of the O market.  This is why they really need to walk and talk among us.

I thought pre-orders for the 5 Berks were closed by now anyways.  They're still scheduled (for what it's worth) for Dec '15.  Unless the rug gets pulled out from under them like the reefers...

Rusty

I suspect (based upon what Lionel can produce in O gauge) that a Legacy version of the AF Berk with wire hand rails could be done for less much less $900. The low rent Berks make sense for the Polar Express sets, but not as an offering for the established AF/S gauge fan with Legacy. My buddies and I find the low rent Berks to be wanting ... so, a less than expected preorder count, if true, is not surprising. A lot of FlyerChief is definitely not in the future for many of us.

No like ...no buy. YMMV

Bob

I just talked with Matt Ashba and Charlie Ro about the separate sale Berks.  The question was about the ability to order them or if the pre order period was closed.

Charlie says his company is still taking orders.  But he does not order extra engines accept for enough to handle replacements due to broken engines.  

Matt Wrote:

____________________

Regarding the FlyerChief separate sale Berks.  Those will all be built this year and will ship out before the end of the year.  They will be built according to the orders that were received on them, so you are going to find there are very few that we’ll have left in our inventory after we fulfill the current backorders.     If there is strong enough demand for any particular road name(s), we could always consider a new production run.

Thanks,

Matt

_____________________________

I guess this means if you think you want one its time to place an order.

Bob:  When I interviewed Matt at York and he said any Legacy Berks were far into the future.  As to price my guess it would be over a grand.  Looking at O gauge Legacy engines all full size engines are over a thousand and even an O gauge Northern LionMaster engines are a thousand.   

The new Berk, which is a plain Jane die cast steamer without any intricate detailing, built with just Legacy and wire handrails (the antenna, you know) would not be anywhere near that much. As a rough comparison of complexity, one can purchase an O scale-sized NYC 10-wheeler in the neighborhood of ~ $600  ... and the 10-wheeler has more details. Until they build Berks with Legacy my wallet stays closed. And, I have said as much to Matt.

Bob

Low rent?  I think that's a pretty crappy thing to start calling a toy train.  I don't believe Lionel ever said the Berkshire was going to be dressed out as a full scale model.  It's aimed at the train set market; as a toy train, it's far more accurate than any of Gilbert's diecast offerings that were based on the prewar 3/16ths O gauge models - they're all too fat to be true S scale sized.  The handful of steam engines Gilbert developed in the postwar era were skinnier in the boiler dimensions, but stripped of the nice added details the prewar based engines had.  It's a toy, not a high end model - there's no way Lionel can make a fully detailed S gauge steam engine to be sold in train sets and keep the set price under 8 or 9 hundred dollars.  The controller capable of only controlling 1 engine is screwy,  but for a Christmas tree display it's more than adequate.

They'll sell a hell of a lot more NYC ten wheelers in O gauage then any S gauge engine - that's the reality of the marketplace.  S gauge is a blip on the sales chart compared to O gauge/3 rail trains.  My hunch is Lionel discovered that the cost to tool up full scale-detailed S engines wasn't bringing back a big enough return on their investment.

No one knows the future.  In my talks with Matt he said no plans for future engine types would be made till after they knew the reactions the market has for the 5 Berks.  If they do deliver in late December that leaves them time to plan new products and print the 2016 catalog.  We will all know something then.  Probably in April as most years.

Bingo! The new CEO is a business guy. He wants an efficient, profitable business. I doubt he cares much what they make.

I have been told that tooling cost are very close between an equivalent O and S engine. Not only that, but your average O scale customer is willing to spend more than your average S scale customer.  So quite simply there aren't enough customers (like me) that are willing to pay for high-end S scale engines. Hence the reason they are focused on O. I said it years ago when Lionel announced the Challengers and U-33s that if they wanted S to be O scale Jr. they would need to attract new blood from other scales. There just aren't enough in S currently.

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing Lionel license the AF name and tooling to MTH. They already do it with Tinplate and that has been a success from what I understand. MTH is better positioned to deliver multiple scales of trains, IMHO. Let them own the S space and Lionel can concentrate on O, Christmas, and branded products (Lego?).  I'm sure many will think I'm nuts, but I think that would be better for the consumers in the long run.

Trouble is, MTH hasn't exactly been a ball o' fire in S, either. I knew it would be slow rebooting the Showcase Line, but I didn't figure it to be this slow.

As the story goes, there won't be anything new in MTH S until the former SHS has all been rereleased.  Plus the F3 delivery dates have slipped what, 3-4 times now (Now Sept. 2015) and apparently MTH doesn't even know (or won't say) when the next catalog will be.

The tinplate deal with MTH works for Lionel because MTH already had its own tooling and was already producing Lionel reproductions (minus the badging,) whereas Lionel would have to tool up to compete for literally identical tin trains in a small market.

Rusty

Again, I'm afraid that a critical point is still being missed. Lionel already has the tooling for the Berk. They also have the AF Legacy electronics. Combine the electronics with the Berk much as is done these days with the newer Gilbert style PAs. One would pay a premium, of course, but the resulting engine is still not going to be wildly expensive. Then, those who already have Legacy can go that route, which is a much cleaner proposition for them. The Legacy requires the antennae ... hence, the wire hand rails are a given.

QED.

Bob 

I know what you are saying Rich, but I still think at the end of the day they could do a better job simply because it seems to me that Lionel doesn't really want the business at all. I wonder if they had an out if they would take it?

A few folks criticized me a year or two ago when I said that my source told me that Lionel had no new S scale products on the board. If you add that to what Bill just posted from Matt Ashba that they are going to wait to see how the starter set grade Berks sell before they even think about another engine... You don't have to be a genius to figure out that the only AF scale products we will see are likely going to be repaints of existing tooling.

How hard would it be to put Legacy into the Pacifics and Mikados? Jon Z. said that he has smaller boards now that will work. The rumor I heard was that they might not have the tooling anymore? Not sure about that, but still...

I promise I will stop beating this dead horse, but it still frustrates me that Lionel busted out of the gates and has now basically fallen flat. I think it is fair to say that this management team and the previous team view AF differently.

I agree wholeheartedly with every point you make.

It doesn't matter how many folks are impressed by Hitchcock or tout him as a "train" guy who really cares about us hobbyists, the bottom line is he's running a business -- not self-indulging in a hobby. For any business, be it corporate or a LHS, ALL decisions are based on the color of the bottom line that. That's all that counts in the end that line can't be awash in red ink for any business to survive for very long, let alone flourish and thrive!!!

This one.

Berk tooling - I don't think the exact tooling for the casting of the current Berk will work for one with wire hand rails.  They would have to make a new casting to take off the cast in handrails.

I don't know how many of you have seen the Berk, but I have the Polar Express locomotive/tender and I think the Berk well done.  Plus its sound system & smoke unit is good.  If you haven't seen it and held it in your hand you are making assumptions about its quality. 

Good luck with thinking Lionel will ever use a TMCC boards again.  I think it will be FlyerChief or Legacy for our future.

This may seem a bit off topic, please ignore it if you find it so.

I , for one, am not upset with the new Berks, although I would have preferred the free standing handrails as well.

It is hard to figure out why some commercial concerns behave as they do. 

Before folks became disappointed in Lionel, they were disappointed by other firms.

When Bachmann first launched On30, there was a lot of talk that they would just regauge the wheels on the engines and replace the 1:48 detailed cab with a 1:64 scaled cab, and retruck the freight cars to make S gauge sets to run with Christmas Villages.  A few of us did those conversions on our own and I have a whole fleet of MOW cars made from Bachmann cars that look pretty good. (Some folks run those cars behind the oversized AF Frontiersman Locos- but the hoppers, flats and gondolas look good behind a SHS Consolidation and converted Bachmann Archbar trucks are the most affordable way to get that style of trucks in S these days).  I have no idea why Bachmann never made S Scale as there would have been only a minimal investment on their part.  (I suspect that On30 didn't sell as well as they expected, as I acquired those Bachmann cars when the LHS put them on clearance for $12.00 each).

Oh well.  I know a few tricks that I can do with paint to make molded handrails look like they are free standing from 3 feet away.  Locomotives in ERIE paint are rare in S gauge and I am excited about an affordable steam locomotive that isn't 50 years old to run on my pike.  (let's hope they don't cancel them!)

Little Tommy

LittleTommy -  Locomotives in ERIE paint are rare in S gauge and I am excited about an affordable steam locomotive that isn't 50 years old to run on my pike.  (let's hope they don't cancel them!)

When I talked with Matt at Lionel yesterday he indicated all were going to be in production and in the states in December.  You should get an Erie Christmas present.

Well, Bill, I have held the Berk and tender in my hands several times. It is a creditable piece for an entry level engine (i.e., Polar Express) and the tender is better than the loco. However, the cast-in hand rails are too big and ugly. The tooling could be modified to fit wire hand rails to the boiler. This is precisely what they (provisionally) intend to do in the future. It would not have been all that difficult or costly to have just done the hand rails right in the first place. Nor, would have it been difficult to make available a Legacy version of the this engine for ~ $150 more. It might also be desirable for folks to cease making excuses for the continuing Lionel product development clumsiness. 

Bob