New F3's - Kinematic Pilots

I was thinking the same thing...

kinematic pilots would be great but on all the newly offered diesels.

sd70

e8/9

e6

f3

....on and on

@Dave Olson @Conrail6358 think this is possible? 

Personally, I would much rather have a fixed pilot, with the ability to change it out to a more scale pilot, which would accept a Kadee coupler. That is what Sunset/3rd Rail does on their 3-Rail models, i.e. they are delivered with a fixed pilot and the large electro-coupler for 3-Rail trains. They sell, as an optional piece, the scale pilot, which accepts the Kadee coupler gear box assembly.

Those "Kinematic" draw-bars sure work great for the scale steam locomotive models, and I'm surprised that Lionel hasn't up-graded their top of the line Vision Line models with that feature. Take a high end SCALE large steam locomotive model, which should be limited to 072 curves anyway, yet the tender is ridiculously far away from the cab.

Budkole posted:

I was thinking the same thing...

kinematic pilots would be great but on all the newly offered diesels.

sd70

e8/9

e6

f3

....on and on

Yes, the feature would be nice on all the higher end diesel products. However, I was thinking of the F3 in particular since it was a smaller locomotive where the kinematic pilot would not impact the minimum curve of locomotive too much. The SD70 and E's are much longer locomotives and would probably go from an 036 curve to an 054 curve; as least officially. Besides, I have the F3's on order (call me selfish). 

Hot Water posted:

Personally, I would much rather have a fixed pilot, with the ability to change it out to a more scale pilot, which would accept a Kadee coupler. That is what Sunset/3rd Rail does on their 3-Rail models, i.e. they are delivered with a fixed pilot and the large electro-coupler for 3-Rail trains. They sell, as an optional piece, the scale pilot, which accepts the Kadee coupler gear box assembly.

Those "Kinematic" draw-bars sure work great for the scale steam locomotive models, and I'm surprised that Lionel hasn't up-graded their top of the line Vision Line models with that feature. Take a high end SCALE large steam locomotive model, which should be limited to 072 curves anyway, yet the tender is ridiculously far away from the cab.

True, a fixed pilot would loot better. However, I have the ES44AC and F40PH which have the kinematic pilot and the separation between chassis and pilot is very small and not noticeable when operating. Natural, the swinging pilot limits the handrails on the ES44AC, but that is not a problem for the F40PH and would not be a problem for the F3. The kinematic pilot is a nice compromise which allows for operation on tighter curves.

Besides, Sunset/3rd Rail is already doing fixed pilots so the kinematic pilot sets the Lionel units apart from that as well as all the other units that have the pilot attached to the truck. 

It would appear from the lack of response that kinematic pilots are not that big of a deal. Perhaps because that every time that kinematic pilots are mentioned in the catalog the feature is for 054 or broader curves which may scare potential customers off. 

I guess the next question is this. Is the kinematic pilot a selling point at all? 

WBC posted:

It would appear from the lack of response that kinematic pilots are not that big of a deal. Perhaps because that every time that kinematic pilots are mentioned in the catalog the feature is for 054 or broader curves which may scare potential customers off. 

I guess the next question is this. Is the kinematic pilot a selling point at all? 

If they want more of MY money, it is!

They need to offer or include a set of fixable pilots, preferably with a smaller opening for a kadee coupler. Lionel is the ONLY manufacturer of scale sized O that does not offer the ability to fix pilots... MTH, Atlas, 3rd rail have all been doing it for a while now. I would order an ABBA SF set if it could be easily done. Otherwise, I will continue to purchase all my diesels exclusively from 3rd rail as they are all individually powered with sound and have fixable pilots. Lionel finally listened to the masses on the powered with sound issue... now let's get those heinous pilots figured out  

I don't think I'll buy another diesel without the kinematic pilot. I love how they look on my BN SD40's with the snowplow mounted.

BigJohn&theWork posted:

They need to offer or include a set of fixable pilots, preferably with a smaller opening for a kadee coupler. Lionel is the ONLY manufacturer of scale sized O that does not offer the ability to fix pilots... MTH, Atlas, 3rd rail have all been doing it for a while now. I would order an ABBA SF set if it could be easily done. Otherwise, I will continue to purchase all my diesels exclusively from 3rd rail as they are all individually powered with sound and have fixable pilots. Lionel finally listened to the masses on the powered with sound issue... now let's get those heinous pilots figured out  

That's a bit harsh. 

The F3 appears to have fairly good looking pilot. 

It is just that the kinematic pilot is the latest and greatest and a F3 should have the latest and greatest features. 

WBC posted:

BigJohn&theWork posted:

They need to offer or include a set of fixable pilots, preferably with a smaller opening for a kadee coupler. Lionel is the ONLY manufacturer of scale sized O that does not offer the ability to fix pilots... MTH, Atlas, 3rd rail have all been doing it for a while now. I would order an ABBA SF set if it could be easily done. Otherwise, I will continue to purchase all my diesels exclusively from 3rd rail as they are all individually powered with sound and have fixable pilots. Lionel finally listened to the masses on the powered with sound issue... now let's get those heinous pilots figured out  

That's a bit harsh. 

The F3 appears to have fairly good looking pilot. 

It is just that the kinematic pilot is the latest and greatest and a F3 should have the latest and greatest features. 

In my opinion the proper way to go, as I've stated previously, is with a scale looking FIXED PILOT. Lets remember that Lionel is offering these as SCALE models, and thus should NOT be attempting to market them for 027/031 curves! Even better would be the option to change-out the 3-Rail pilot and  claw coupler, to a more scale looking 2-Rail pilot capable of accepting the Kadee coupler assembly (at least on the front unit). 

Hot Water posted:

WBC posted:

BigJohn&theWork posted:

They need to offer or include a set of fixable pilots, preferably with a smaller opening for a kadee coupler. Lionel is the ONLY manufacturer of scale sized O that does not offer the ability to fix pilots... MTH, Atlas, 3rd rail have all been doing it for a while now. I would order an ABBA SF set if it could be easily done. Otherwise, I will continue to purchase all my diesels exclusively from 3rd rail as they are all individually powered with sound and have fixable pilots. Lionel finally listened to the masses on the powered with sound issue... now let's get those heinous pilots figured out  

That's a bit harsh. 

The F3 appears to have fairly good looking pilot. 

It is just that the kinematic pilot is the latest and greatest and a F3 should have the latest and greatest features. 

In my opinion the proper way to go, as I've stated previously, is with a scale looking FIXED PILOT. Lets remember that Lionel is offering these as SCALE models, and thus should NOT be attempting to market them for 027/031 curves! Even better would be the option to change-out the 3-Rail pilot and  claw coupler, to a more scale looking 2-Rail pilot capable of accepting the Kadee coupler assembly (at least on the front unit). 

I agree 100%. If Lionel is attempting to sell to the scale market, then they need typical scale features on their models. The kinimatic pilot still has a hideous gap between the engine and the pilot. While it is certainly an improvement, it is not on par with other manufactures/importers of scale diesels. I applaud Lionel for their movement to producing better looking, more highly detailed scale items but they lack a handful of features  that keep them just shy of what the scale market is looking for. I realize that the "small curve crowd" still makes up a portion of the sales on items such as the new F3 and Lionel does not want to miss out on those sales. They should include the kinematic pilot on the F3's which will please the "small curve crowd" and then preferably include a fixable pilot with a kadee sized hole or at least offer them for separate sale so the scale market can have a nice looking $800 scale diesel.

Close coupling..... there is no substitute!

Laidoffsick posted:

Close coupling..... there is no substitute!

Exactly!

I would very much like to see kinematic couplers/pilots in the smaller EMD and ALCo switch engines.

Hot Water posted:

Personally, I would much rather have a fixed pilot, with the ability to change it out to a more scale pilot,

"Agreed"

Those "Kinematic" draw-bars sure work great for the scale steam locomotive models, and I'm surprised that Lionel hasn't up-graded their top of the line Vision Line models with that feature. Take a high end SCALE large steam locomotive model, which should be limited to 072 curves anyway, yet the tender is ridiculously far away from the cab.

The kinematic drawbars, as previously stated by Lionel, can only be implicated on newly tooled locomotives. Modification on existing tooling would be too difficult.

We haven't begun the final design on these yet. I will explore options on what we can do.

I think Atlas handled the fixed pilots/scale couplers/close coupling the best way for their F units.

I agree Norm. Out of the box the Atlas F units have a fixed pilot option for a Kadee, and close coupling between the units. If you don't have Kadees on your cars, just leave the 3 rail coupler on the rear engine. You the customer have the option.

My only gripe is that Atlas didn't reuse the P&D mounts for the rear A unit couplers and the B unit couplers. P&D had a better looking setup. Not sure why they didn't get used even if Atlas had to redo the frames.

Dave Olson posted:

We haven't begun the final design on these yet. I will explore options on what we can do.

Thanks for even considering trying to make them better then just redoing them . Also thanks for adding the stainless steal look to them .. This model  is gonna be tuff not to buy..

Dave Olson posted:

We haven't begun the final design on these yet. I will explore options on what we can do.

Wow! Thank you for considering kinematics pilots on the F3's! What more can be asked. Very kind of you to reply. 

Hot Water posted:

WBC posted:

BigJohn&theWork posted:

They need to offer or include a set of fixable pilots, preferably with a smaller opening for a kadee coupler. Lionel is the ONLY manufacturer of scale sized O that does not offer the ability to fix pilots... MTH, Atlas, 3rd rail have all been doing it for a while now. I would order an ABBA SF set if it could be easily done. Otherwise, I will continue to purchase all my diesels exclusively from 3rd rail as they are all individually powered with sound and have fixable pilots. Lionel finally listened to the masses on the powered with sound issue... now let's get those heinous pilots figured out  

That's a bit harsh. 

The F3 appears to have fairly good looking pilot. 

It is just that the kinematic pilot is the latest and greatest and a F3 should have the latest and greatest features. 

In my opinion the proper way to go, as I've stated previously, is with a scale looking FIXED PILOT. Lets remember that Lionel is offering these as SCALE models, and thus should NOT be attempting to market them for 027/031 curves! Even better would be the option to change-out the 3-Rail pilot and  claw coupler, to a more scale looking 2-Rail pilot capable of accepting the Kadee coupler assembly (at least on the front unit). 

3rd Rail offers ABBA for $2800 built with fixed pilots ready for Kadee's and every unit powered with a single motor. I suspect that the 3rd Rail F-units are so expensive because the models can only be used by a very narrow portion of the community that production volumes are very low. 3rd Rail's product, while I am sure is fantastic, is not suitable for my needs since I am entirely 048. I am not arguing that there should not be the option of fixing the pilot; however, if the F3's have fixed pilots I certainly would not have been able spend the $1000 that I have already spent on these units. 

WBC posted:

Dave Olson posted:

We haven't begun the final design on these yet. I will explore options on what we can do.

Wow! Thank you for considering kinematics pilots on the F3's! What more can be asked. Very kind of you to reply. 

Hot Water posted:

WBC posted:

BigJohn&theWork posted:

They need to offer or include a set of fixable pilots, preferably with a smaller opening for a kadee coupler. Lionel is the ONLY manufacturer of scale sized O that does not offer the ability to fix pilots... MTH, Atlas, 3rd rail have all been doing it for a while now. I would order an ABBA SF set if it could be easily done. Otherwise, I will continue to purchase all my diesels exclusively from 3rd rail as they are all individually powered with sound and have fixable pilots. Lionel finally listened to the masses on the powered with sound issue... now let's get those heinous pilots figured out  

That's a bit harsh. 

The F3 appears to have fairly good looking pilot. 

It is just that the kinematic pilot is the latest and greatest and a F3 should have the latest and greatest features. 

In my opinion the proper way to go, as I've stated previously, is with a scale looking FIXED PILOT. Lets remember that Lionel is offering these as SCALE models, and thus should NOT be attempting to market them for 027/031 curves! Even better would be the option to change-out the 3-Rail pilot and  claw coupler, to a more scale looking 2-Rail pilot capable of accepting the Kadee coupler assembly (at least on the front unit). 

3rd Rail offers ABBA for $2800 built with fixed pilots ready for Kadee's and every unit powered with a single motor. I suspect that the 3rd Rail F-units are so expensive because the models can only be used by a very narrow portion of the community that production volumes are very low.

Well, you suspect incorrectly. All the Sunset/3rd Rail diesel models designed and sold to (and for) 3-rail modelers do come with fixed pilots. However, for 3-Rail operation, they ARE equipped with "claw" electro-couplers, with a large enough opening in the front pilots to allow the "claw" to swing on sharper curves, i.e. 048.

3rd Rail's product, while I am sure is fantastic, is not suitable for my needs since I am entirely 048.

Have you sent an inquiry to Scott Mann at Sunset/3rd Rail and specifically asked about operation on 048 curves with his standard as-delivered fixed pilots and "claw" electro-couplers?

I am not arguing that there should not be the option of fixing the pilot; however, if the F3's have fixed pilots I certainly would not have been able spend the $1000 that I have already spent on these units. 

Well, again,,,,,,the pilot REALLY does NOT have to "swing" with the front truck, if the opening in the pilot is wide enough to allow the "claw" electro-coupler to swing instead.

Grrr... giving the customer an OPTION to fix the pilot with a scale or dummy coupler would make us both happy.  The scale pilot should be included in the box.

I purchased a 3rd rail F-unit, and I didn't like the look of the 3-rail pilot with its large coupler protruding.  So I bought the scale pilot at extra cost.  The size of the coupler (and the large opening for it) hurts appearance all the time.  Having the pilot swing out from under the body is only apparent on curves.

I'm most concerned with the head-on appearance of the front of the lead unit.  I'm not going to "switch" with the nose of an F-unit, so I don't care whether that coupler is functional or not.  If I bought an A-A set, then I would leave one unit with the 3-rail "claw" so it could pull the train.

My dad always says "build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door."  I've been in this hobby 40 years and already have models of the locos I love.  If Lionel, 3rd Rail, etc., want my dollars for new product at today's prices, they have to produce a "BETTER" model (mechanically or cosmetically) to entice me to buy it, and sell the one I already have.  

Sound, command control, etc., won't do it because these electronics fail, become obsolete, or can easily be transferred.  The mechanical pedigree is most important.  I can put a Blaupunkt tape deck in a Chevy or a Mercedes.  Doesn't change the way it looks or runs.  My $0.02

Well, here is 3rd Rail's product description:

PHASE IV DETAILING IN THE FOLLOWING ROADS

DEMO – ACL – SFWB -SF FREIGHT -  B&M
B&O - CB&Q – CGW - MILW
CN – COG - C&NW - RG 
ERIE – GN – GTW – MOPAC - NP - NYC (LIGHTNING)
PRR (GREEN) – RDG – SAL - SOUTHERN (GREEN)
SP - SP&S – UP (YELLOW) - WP (ZYPHER)

Details / Painting and Lettering Information Coming Soon.

Expertly Crafted, ABS Bodies, Full Cab Interior, Canon Powered, metal drive, Sound in 2R and 3R. 3R With ERR Cruise, Railsounds & Smoke. 2R with QSI “Titan” DC/DCC and Sound. 
Built to Reservations Only. Sit on the fence and you'll just have sore butt, nothing else.

which does not state the features you describe and did not sell me on that product. Based upon photos I have seen, I prefer the swinging pilot that I have seen on previous production runs from Atlas and Lionel. Kinematic pilots would be frosting on the cake for me. 

WBC posted:

Well, here is 3rd Rail's product description:

PHASE IV DETAILING IN THE FOLLOWING ROADS

DEMO – ACL – SFWB -SF FREIGHT -  B&M
B&O - CB&Q – CGW - MILW
CN – COG - C&NW - RG 
ERIE – GN – GTW – MOPAC - NP - NYC (LIGHTNING)
PRR (GREEN) – RDG – SAL - SOUTHERN (GREEN)
SP - SP&S – UP (YELLOW) - WP (ZYPHER)

Details / Painting and Lettering Information Coming Soon.

Expertly Crafted, ABS Bodies, Full Cab Interior, Canon Powered, metal drive, Sound in 2R and 3R. 3R With ERR Cruise, Railsounds & Smoke. 2R with QSI “Titan” DC/DCC and Sound. 
Built to Reservations Only. Sit on the fence and you'll just have sore butt, nothing else.

ABS BODY and FIXED PILOTS Ball Bearing Axles Journals Horizontal Canon Motor Drive 3R ERR Cruise, TMCC, Railsounds 2R - QSI "Titan" DC/DCC with Q3 Programming / Dual Speakers New Extreme Detail Cab Interior (Lighted) Smooth Operating, All Wheels Powered  Only Powered Units $669.95 (MSRP) Coming FALL 2018

which does not state the features you describe and did not sell me on that product. Based upon photos I have seen, I prefer the swinging pilot that I have seen on previous production runs from Atlas and Lionel. Kinematic pilots would be frosting on the cake for me. 

OK, so exactly which features that I described above, don't you believe?

3rd Rails fixed pilot F units still have a 3 rail claw and a huge opening in that fixed pilot. The coupler pivots within that huge opening.

You can put Kadees on that pilot........but you have to unplug the claw and remove it.

Or you purchase the 2R version of the fixed pilot without that huge hole. 

Mr Olson,

If you are serious about this, Kinematic pilots and kadee mounts like all your new diesels.  However, you must either add a front pilot cover option to hide the giant hole, or provide a way to supply another pilot with a smaller opening so when a kadee is mounted it is not protruding from an enormous opening.

kinematic pilot    ?? pic anyone?

Gregg posted:

kinematic pilot    ?? pic anyone?

Here's the American Flyer version:

Rusty

Thanks Rusty....  I suppose  if  one is limited to sharp curves it may be an option... I don't like it but it may  prevent  some de-railing.  Truck can swivel and also the pilot. 

As Rusty showed, the kinematic pilot of the locomotive swings independently from the truck. The design allows for a much smaller gap between the pilot and frame, and the kinematic pilot also allows the pilot not to swing on curved track when it needs not to. The kinematic pilot allows for a more realistic appearance while allowing for tighter curve operation than that of a fixed pilot.

Here are some pictures of a Lionel F40PH on 027 track. 

If the F40PH can do this on 027 there should not be any problem for the shorter F3 on 031, the minimum curve stated in the catalog. 

By the way the minimum curve stated for the F40PH in the catalog was 054. Clearly can do a little sharper than that. 

The problem, for me, with the suggestion of Lionel going with a fixed pilot for F-3's, is that I suspect that the majority of buyers, myself included, have no plans go go with Kadee couplers.  

With a fixed pilot, the claw coupler opening must be much larger and from what I have seen on those models, the coupler sticks way out.  With a  kinematic pilot, you can keep the opening much smaller and hopefully not a large projection for the coupler.

Kinematic pilot for me.

I got my F7s and the came with the 2 rail scale fixed pilots and kadee mounts as well as dummy couplers. The electro coupler comes right off and the plug is at the top of the truck. Looks to be very easy to make the switch.

Matt Makens posted:

I got my F7s and the came with the 2 rail scale fixed pilots and kadee mounts as well as dummy couplers. The electro coupler comes right off and the plug is at the top of the truck. Looks to be very easy to make the switch.

Matt,

You are obviously referring to either Sunset/3rd Rail models or Atlas models. Such is MUCH more difficult to do on Lionel F Unit models, which is the main thrust of this thread, i.e. Lionel.

Sirs,

@Dave Olson 

@Conrail6358

Since the design phase is not complete may I offer a few suggestions to make the new Santa Fe F3s (and other roads as well) state of the art?

1) Please supply a front pilot cover for the lead A unit as you are doing on the E6.  This will enable scale folks to hide that gigantic hole and will not affect the Hi Rail folks if they do not want to use it.

2) Kinematic pilots should be added, and a standard.  This will appeal to the scale people and again should not affect the Hi Railers.  Or a fixed pilot option, which again as an option, would not affect the Hi Railers.

3) Supply a kadee coupler mount on the A and B units

4) If a front pilot cover is not supplied, perhaps a second pilot option that does not have a giant opening.  Again this option should not affect the Hi Railer.

Eccentric Crank posted:

2) Kinematic pilots should be added, and a standard.  This will appeal to the scale people and again should not affect the Hi Railers.  Or a fixed pilot option, which again as an option, would not affect the Hi Railers.

Fixed pilots with small openings for kadees will appeal to the scale people, myself included. I am not interested in a kinematic pilot. Kinematic pilots are fine to included already installed to appeal to the small curve crowd but they should also include a fixable scale piolt in the box like everyone else does now. That being said, there's a reason 3rd Rail gets my diesel funds...

Any new info from Lionel on the status of the pilots on these?

@Dave Olson thanks for considering these options.  I selfishly hope Lionel starts providing a scale fixed pilot in the box with corresponding tapped mounting holes in the frame like Atlas and 3rd Rail.  That would be GREAT!

The Legacy F7s done a few years back were close coupled, even with the 3 rail coupler. I had no problems with them, in fact I only put a Kadee on the front of the A units. That's really the only thing that needs to be addressed, as the gap between the units was perfect out of the box.

Compare the 3rd Rail F7s I highly modified on top, to the out of the box Lionel F7s. They know how to do it, and I don't think there is room on those short F units for all the hardware of the new kinematic type coupler. In fact, that is why is hasn't appeared on various other models...lack of space.

Just work on the pilot gap for the front of the A units, and drop the ride height back down to where IT SHOULD BE.