New Guy...............a couple questions for the Vets on this forum

I would track down a 1033 or 1044 transformer, I'm sure anyone here on the forum could help you with it.

Only knowing that transformer looks very old. A new transformer would be a better option and maybe a safer one.  Going  to a hobby shop they can point you in the right direction. Unless you are planning to go further and buy more trains then I would suggest buying a larger transformer. You just don't want to buy the smallest one but like I said go to a good hobby shop and they will help you.............Paul

That was made many years before liquid plastic existed. That is a form of tar that was routinely used to insulate transformers. Your best bet is a postwar transformer of at least 90 watts.

What are you running?

....I believe that transformer was made in Chicago(probably before 1940) by the Jefferson Transformer Co to go with pre-war American Flyer.....The cord is probably a fire hazard...

I suspect you are running old trains and a refurbished Postwar Lionel or Flyer transformer would be fine......However, I would get a new Lionel CW80  (80watts), or an MTH M-1000 100 watt unit. This gives you modern technology in case you buy modern trains in the future.

I happen to have a refurbished 190 watt Jefferson transformer.... Works fine when I have used it. (for powering lights).

BTW, John, where are you in Virginia? If you are near Richmond, come down to our modular group set up this weekend at the Great Big GreenHouse in Bon Air/Midlothian...we're open Saturday and Sunday from 9 to 6. Info here:

https://ogrforum.com/c...nt/47326445792756203

Peter

Marx was provided with these transformers, as were Lionel sets sold through Sears.

El Classico posted:

Marx was provided with these transformers, as were Lionel sets sold through Sears.

Interesting......I did not know that fact.......always something to learn!

Peter

I would go to a newer transformer, just in case.

I concur with Peter's recommendation. Even if you have old prewar AC trains, you're much better off with a modern transformer. Electrically, they're safer than their prewar/postwar counterparts as they use fast-acting circuit breakers. The old ones either didn't have circuit breakers at all or used thermal breakers which aren't all they're cracked up to be, especially when they get old.

Welcome to the Forum, John!  You'll get lots of good advice here.

I like to restore old trains but old transformers may no longer be safe - especially one that looks "fried." That transformer was designed for basic ("starter")  sets. You will probably need a larger transformer sooner or later.

I'll second RoyBoy's and Peter's advice about getting a new transformer (Lionel, MTH, Williams or Atlas) rated 90 or 100 watts (maybe more). That transformer will have a "Bell" button that sends negative (-) DC into the track to activate some features on newer locomotives - those made since the late 1990's.

A hobby shop and/or vendors at FBurg can steer you in the right direction. Look around and get a transformer they recommend.

You could keep that Jefferson transformer as a conversation piece.

Or you could bring it to FBurg and see whether anyone is interested in it. Maybe work out a trade.

John,

I agree with all the above. Place the one that you have on a shelf. DO NOT plug it in or attempt to use it for safety sake. There are some excellent suggestions listed. For your peace of mind, purchase a transformer made in the last twenty-five years. IMHO

thx all and paps. I;ll talk to the locals at FBurg and replace. Keep this one for conversation piece. No voltage coming out when tested. Correct me here but transformer to me means from AC to DC right? This is a prewar O from sears.

Once I have voltage I need to check the 252 loco. I believe it to be functional but needs 2 new wheels from a visual. They will make contact but corroded.

No set-up yet but does length of track figure into the equation for a transformer?

Thx guys.

Some info. O gauge. Prewar. 252 loco, 803, 804, 805, 807 caboose. circa 1930'S?

John the Lloyd posted:

 Correct me here but transformer to me means from AC to DC right?

Well... No.   In its strictest sense a transformer is just a device that changes from one voltage to another. (there is more to it than that, but it's a good enough definition here.)  All transformers only work on AC power.  What we call transformers in the world of electric model trains encompasses a bit more than just that.  Most folks still call the little wall plugs like phone chargers and such 'transformers' though most of these today would be better described as 'switching power supplies.' 

If you look at the picture you posted it says right on top, "for use with alternating current only" which I take to mean for use with AC trains, though it could be an Idiot tag not to power it off DC, depending how old the thing is.  In any case you'll want a standard, AC transformer as a replacement.  Other folks have suggested some good options.  

That consist of those cars you list is Set# 293 issued 1927-1931.  The transformer operates on AC output.  Not DC.  The transformer is stepping down the normal house voltage 115-125 AC, to an output of lower voltage for the locomotive motor, Some  older transfmormers can go as high as 25V ac, but most operate from 0-18v range.  A 1033 transformer would be a good one, but if you decide to really get into it, and add more track and trains, you will need something with higher watt output. Find a Hobby shop that sells trains, and talk with them when you decide what you are planning.

Welcome on board!

     I agree with rest, get either something modern or a nice postwar unit like a ZW. Newer equipment (if you plan to get any) does not work well with these old button contact voltage control units.

     A 252? I have one of them. They seem to be nice runners. Nice group of cars too. Could we see some pictures?

   (Most of this post was edited out as the issues had been addressed while I was typing)

thx again guys. 

The 'midget' trans could go up to 22 1/2 volts using R + 1 terminals. Always thought this was DC current but now I know.

If I get a trans rated higher than the 75 watts do I risk any damage to the loco motor?

No, you won't cause any damage.  Well, unless there is something wrong inside your locomotive.  The larger transformer is just capable of supplying more current, your engine will still only use the same amount.  

Basically, buy a big transformer and you have room for expansion.

I like spwills 'train' of thought. Sounds like the bigger the better.

John the Lloyd posted:

I like spwills 'train' of thought. Sounds like the bigger the better.

Everyone but my doctor agrees with that

Welcome to the wrong side of the tracks.Just kidding the guys on this forum are good people.And they have helped me out a lot.You are at the right place ẃith like minded people.And as I stated before welcome to the forum.

The only thing I do with transformers that old is have them for show if they came with a certain set as part of that set not for use. I have a old 1030 I was going to put a new cord on and test then came to my senses why I don't need it and it looks better this was as a antique.

I concur on not operating prewar transformers like yours; however, if you are looking at a lower cost, refurbished postwar transformers might be the best route to go.

John the Lloyd posted:

 

No set-up yet but does length of track figure into the equation for a transformer?

Thx guys.

Not really.  What will happen with longer track runs is that voltage will drop due to resistance, chiefly from track pins.  To even out the voltage and avoid trains slowing down farther away from the transformer, just attach another pair of wires from the transformer to the track about half the distance away.  Just be sure that the same wire from each transformer terminal goes to the same (outer or middle) rail as the first set you connected, to avoid a short circuit.   Folks with very large layouts often install these every few track joints.

BTW, a rectifier converts AC to DC, and when you combine it with a transformer you have a "power pack", what HO, N and Z-scale model trains typically use.

Welcome to the forum, and I hope you enjoy and participate!

I have an old type W prewar transformer that came with the '38 set my father got as a child.  In the early '90's I was using it for accessory power.  I was discussing my power requirements with my local service station and Ron told me to stop using the W immediately.  He explained they are not UL certified and have no internal protection at all.  They are fire hazards.  He told me when he gets one (that he purchases with a set or collection) he cuts the cord off and throws them away.

My W is in nearly perfect condition.  I have the original box and it has a completely intact original cord.  I consider it an antique and it hasn't seen power since the day I had that conversation with Ron.

Sorry for the long story just so say I agree with NOT using a prewar transformer.  Really nice used stuff is readily available as is new stuff and you won't risk burning down your house using it.

I also agree with others here that if you plan to expand, bigger is better.  

Tony

There is a wealth of knowledge on this board. Thx again everyone.

Will post back after this weekend.

JohnGaltLine posted:

If you look at the picture you posted it says right on top, "for use with alternating current only" which I take to mean for use with AC trains, though it could be an Idiot tag not to power it off DC, depending how old the thing is.  

It is, as you say, an idiot tag.

Remember that in the 20's there were still parts of New York and Canada that were powered by DC from the Edison plant. Plugging a transformer into a DC outlet would cause the transformer to overheat and burn up. I do  not know when the last DC power supplied to consumers was switched over to AC, but DC was still in use when these transformers were made.

Welcome Aboard - the education, the knowledge base and what I learn daily is impressive. 

DC power lasted through the 1950's.

The 1951 Lionel Instruction booklet, in the section ABOUT YOUR POWER SUPPLY, states, "While the house power supply used in this country is usually 110 to 125 volts, 60-cycle alternating current (AC), there are a number of exceptions. Some parts of California use 50-cycle current; some areas in Canada employ 25-cycle current, while some downtown areas in New York City still use 110-volt direct current (DC) with which a transformer cannot be used without a special DC-to-AC inverter. [next paragraph]: "In case of doubt always ask your electric company about the type of power you have before buying or installing any equipment which is to be plugged into your wall outlets. If you have a special problem consult your Lionel Dealer or write to The Lionel Corporation" (p. 36).

In 1953 this warning was published inside the front cover of the booklet as well. It was published there and in the text through the 1960 booklet - the one with N&W 2143 on the cover and an ad for the FIFTH BIG NEW EDITION of the Bantam paperback MODEL RAILROADING on the back cover.

Thomas Edison harnessed DC. It was generated at the same current used by customers in NYC and other cities and used near the power plant. But carrying DC over long distances required substations about every 5 miles. A brilliant immigrant named Nikola Tesla achieved AC current. Transformers sent it over wires at high voltage. Other transformers stepped down the voltage for customers. Power plants could be larger and wires smaller, making AC more economical. But AC was not readily accepted.

When Westinghouse became Tesla's partner in promoting AC, Thomas Edison fought them fiercely in "The Battle of the Currents."  Edison electrocuted an elephant with AC and urged that AC be used in electric chairs to execute convicts. Edison called those executions "Westinghousings." AC was used in Colorado mines served by fabled narrow gauge railroads. Westinghouse and Tesla won a contract to light the World's Columbian Exposition in 1893 and build a hydroelectric plant at Niagara Falls that year. Lower costs of generating, transmitting and using AC eventually prevailed. But DC remained where it could be used close to a power plant.

Lionel instructions warned that DC power would cause whistles and horns to sound continuously. DC, of course, is used in modern electronics.

John the L,

    1st welcome to the OGR the best forum on the Net.  Your 252 when restored correctly will run perfectly with the old KW or ZW Lionel Transformers, you can usually pick either one up at a reasonable cost, and they will also run the newer trains with some resettable 10 Amp Breakers.  Jim Larson here on the OGR restores these KW & ZW transformers like brand spanking new, contact him for a good transformer at a more than reasonable price.   

PCRR/Dave

For what it's worth, it wasn't until November 14, 2007 that con Edison took the last DC powered house off the grid in New York.   They began in 1998 with something over 4,000 houses and building still on DC power.  (See the press release here)

"Plugging a transformer into a DC outlet would cause the transformer to overheat and burn up."

This is not strictly true. I mean, yes, it will heat up, and if you supply more power than the winding can take it will burn up over time, but mostly it will just act like a big electro-magnet.   A transformer requires a fluctuating magnetic field to work, so on DC the just don't work.  

JGL

John the Lloyd,

2 + R  are the terminals to use. Here's a link to what you have Jefferson Electric Transformers. it's cool and was made when the trains were made. Keep it for nostalgia. Page from a Jefferson 1928 catalog.

By the way, they used a varnish to insulate the windings and transformer. It probably still works. A bad wire or connection somewhere.

Find a modern transformer, as suggested, to run the trains.

it would be good to have the engine serviced if you plan on running it regularly. With a little care, it will run another 85 years.

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

John the L,

    1st welcome to the OGR the best forum on the Net.  Your 252 when restored correctly will run perfectly with the old KW or ZW Lionel Transformers, you can usually pick either one up at a reasonable cost, and they will also run the newer trains with some resettable 10 Amp Breakers.  Jim Larson here on the OGR restores these KW & ZW transformers like brand spanking new, contact him for a good transformer at a more than reasonable price.   

PCRR/Dave

Dave,

How do I contact Jim. I attempted the directory here but it is not a searchable database....sigh

JTL

Welcome to the forum JOHN.  To find a member go to the bottom of this page and click on search.  A screen will come up and it will have, everthing, click on this then a new bunch of categories will show along with members.  Click on members and then put in his name.  Hope this helps.

laz57,

I appreciate your reply. I had done all that. There is no place to 'put in his name'? I can search the directory by display name only, not the last name field. Perhaps I am missing something. I can page through 607 pages of members but not knowing Jim Larson's display name would be a lost cause. No biggy.