New layout - Electrical questions and seeking advice

@TomSuperO posted:

Layout size - approx 13' x 16'     Construction Tech:   L-Girder & Cookie Cutter -

Table top Material:   1/2" ply w 1/2" Homasote roadbed.   Track -  SuperO

Switches - Ross (approx 36 switches) - some w DZ2500, some w DZ1000

Main Buss - 14 ga     Feeders - 16 ga       accessories / switches / signals - 18ga -22ga

Room power:  2 separate 20a circuits ea thru hvy duty 20a wall switchs to kill all room power.

TMCC - Legacy and Conventional Operation

2 Main Lines for 2 train operation (& capable of crossing over during 1 train operation)

Have the following Equipment:

1 postwar KW xformer

1 #990 Legacy Base w CAB2

1 180W PH Brick

1 Lionel TMCC Direct Lock-on (#634120)

SEE ATTACHED LAYOUT DIAG (in color)

Switch Control:

I want to control switches by:

          1) w a toggle switch on the main control panel (w color status)

          2) w a toggle switch located on the fascia at the approx switch location

          3) Currently don't want to control switches using CAB2  but we might want to do a couple from cab2

Yard Switching:

I want to be able to conduct switching operations (using Conventional switcher engines) (separate from the 2 main line operations)   in each of 3 yards:

          1) Left Penninsula - Green Yard

          2) Center Penninsula - Yellow yard

          3) 4-way Coaling yard - Yellow

Yard Power

I want to isolate power (be able to turn on/off w a toggle switch) to each of the following 4 yards                                                                                                   1) Left Penninsula -  green

          2) Center Penninsula - yellow

          3) Right Penninsula Upper Yard (Green) and Lower Yard (pink)

          4) 4way Coal yard - yellow

Very Basic  - (get me up to speed) Questions:

1) I always thought a Block was like an isolated yard or spur or isolated passing siding. But a block is a section of track (approx 3ft long) that has from the main buss a power and a gnd drop attached for that 3' section.

YES  /  NO

    How many Blocks do you think i need for this layout?

  1) What do you suggest / what do you think i need in the way of additional:

          Transformers

          Bricks 180W

          Bricks 135W

          Powermasters

          Connecting Cables

          Lionel Accessories

          DZ2500 breakout boards

          LCS CSM2's

          BPC2's

          ASC2's

          Fuse protection

          TVS - size and #

Any help / suggestions would be apreciated before we start laying track. Don't want to leave out an insulating pin then have to go back and disassemble track.

Thanks

Tom

Lots of operational interest on this plan! There's a lot of track different sidings yard areas, though. Are you actually going to use them all? Have you thought about losing a couple to make some room for scenery? Maybe a town scene where the pink sidings are currently?

Also looks like you're going to end up with some switches on grades. This generally isn't advised b/c switches tend to have issues throwing correctly if they're not perfectly flat. You'll need to be very careful here.

If you want to run command and conventional from your CAB2, I'd just bite the bullet and purchase a ZW-L as it's got plenty of power for a layout this size and all 4 outputs can be controlled by the CAB2 for conventional operation. Obviously 2x of the outputs would be for your mainlines, but the other two could be used to power your different siding/yard areas based on how you think you'll be operating or which ones you think may end up getting used at the same time. You should isolate the mainlines from each other and also the siding groups/yards as well.

It's pretty easy to wire in toggle switches to allow switching off power to individual sidings. Just make sure you get a switch rated for the right voltage/current. I'm using these on my layout and while they're a little big, they work great.

You only need to separate the mainlines into blocks if you want to run multiple conventional trains on the same mainline at the same time. I'd personally not bother and just limit myself to a single train on each line when running conventional.

Are you really going to throw switches all over the layout from a central control panel? I'll bet you'll spend most if not all of your time following trains around with the CAB2/iPhone/iPad in hand, so I think local control panels close to switches and uncoupling tracks and/or CAB2/LCS control is the way to go here.

@Mike0289 posted:

Lots of operational interest on this plan! There's a lot of track different sidings yard areas, though. Are you actually going to use them all? Probably not all but many of them.   Have you thought about losing a couple to make some room for scenery?   Yes. Maybe a town scene where the pink sidings are currently?  Yes, may go to 1 spur w a couple of buildings / businesses.

Also looks like you're going to end up with some switches on grades. Yes. The switches we are concerned w the most are the 2 mailline crossovers and the curve switch on the right penniinsula bottom outer track.  The crossovers grades will be very gentle and we will be very careful to smooth these out.  The curved switch on the right penninsula; that grade is i believe about 2%. We will pay very close attention to that switch and if we have issues, we'll nix it.  This generally isn't advised b/c switches tend to have issues throwing correctly if they're not perfectly flat. You'll need to be very careful here.

If you want to run command and conventional from your CAB2, I'd just bite the bullet and purchase a ZW-L as it's got plenty of power for a layout this size and all 4 outputs can be controlled by the CAB2 for conventional operation. Obviously 2x of the outputs would be for your mainlines, but the other two could be used to power your different siding/yard areas based on how you think you'll be operating or which ones you think may end up getting used at the same time.  We've kicked that around. I think we're headed for a new ZW. You should isolate the mainlines from each other and also the siding groups/yards as well.  Yes, we'd like to isolate these.  They would be separate "power districts?  yes / no 

It's pretty easy to wire in toggle switches to allow switching off power to individual sidings. Just make sure you get a switch rated for the right voltage/current. I'm using these on my layout and while they're a little big, they work great. Thanks for the link. You're using the 20a yes?

You only need to separate the mainlines into blocks if you want to run multiple conventional trains on the same mainline at the same time. I'd personally not bother and just limit myself to a single train on each line when running conventional. That's what we're intending. I'm sure i misused the term blocks.

Are you really going to throw switches all over the layout from a central control panel? I'll bet you'll spend most if not all of your time following trains around with the CAB2/iPhone/iPad in hand, so I think local control panels close to switches and uncoupling tracks and/or CAB2/LCS control is the way to go here. After chewing on what you wrote, i think you're right. Control from the cab2 or locally at the switch. We would like to have a central control panel just showing / indicator showing overall layout w ea switch position - ie red / green.

Thank you very much. I find the whole wiring thing intimidating.

Tom

@TomSuperO posted:

Any help / suggestions would be appreciated before we start laying track. Don't want to leave out an insulating pin then have to go back and disassemble track.

Tom,  I like where you are going.  You may be better off breaking this into sections i.e., electrical, layout, structures and scenery etc.  Mike did a pretty darned good job... but, there is a lot to cover in your post.   Do not be surprised if your vision evolves as your build progresses... I don't really know anyone who hasn't adjusted their layout and made quite a few changes to their original design.

You are off to a very good start!!!

@Dennis-LaRock posted:

Tom,  I like where you are going.  You may be better off breaking this into sections i.e., electrical, layout, structures and scenery etc.  Mike did a pretty darned good job... but, there is a lot to cover in your post.   Do not be surprised if your vision evolves as your build progresses... I don't really know anyone who hasn't adjusted their layout and made quite a few changes to their original design.

You are off to a very good start!!!

Thanks Dennis, My son and i were talking a little bit ago and we both agree that the primary objective is to get the 2 mail lines built first. From there we will have a good visual reference to comapre to the RR track plan.  Once we can put the two together : how much room there actually is and how it looks vs the plan, i'm sure we will adjust accordingly.  We do want to stay very rural w lot of switching / operating capability to industries and because of that we will not be having any towns per say.  Because we are bending our own track, there is flexibility in curve radius. It doesn't have to meet the plan exactly.  An 054 might end up needing / having to be an 050 or an 056.  Makes everything more complicated. We're ok w that. Once the mains are done, i'm sure we'll adjust the yards a bunch of times. We're going to need a lot of help , advice , suggestions on the wiring part.  It's not the learning part, my biggest fear is not learning fast enough to not have made MAJOR mistakes deep into the wiring.  The guys on this forum are really great with advice and i am grateful for their willingness to help.

Yes, structures (bridges, tunnels, etc) and scenery r way down the road.   Two running main lines is the immediate goal.

Thank You,

  Tom       

What track planning software are you using?  You mention O50, O54, O56 curves and Super-O track... which, I love ...I ran it for many, many years.  Are you using Super-O sectional curves and bending it to the desired radius... or, other sectional curves or flex?

Back to your electrical... how many power districts are you anticipating?

Inner Main Line, Outer Main Line, Yards, Accessories, Switch Machines... that's 5.   Mike's mention of the ZW-L isn't a terrible idea.  I personally like having the ability to have variable voltage for all my power districts... handy for running pre & post war conventional/traditional.  Others, differ to fit their own needs.

Dennis, I am using RRtrack software.  It does have the Lionel SuperO track in it's library and in that library it also hs the Weltz curves which have a wide variety of diff radii and also half curves in most radii.  SuperO only comes in 036 radius - u prob know that.  My son, Matt, has been getting a good bit of practice in  - in bending the std 036 superO curves to the new radius on the track plan.  He's gotten pretty good at it. Still tweaking it a bit.  In the track  plan I tried to include easements in the turns - i.e. o72 into a 054 curve. Because there are so many different radius needed in the RRtrack plan to make everything fit the space we have on our layout,  we will bend each curve as we lay each section of curve on the layout.  (1/2" ply subroad bed, 1/2" homasote roadbed). The homasote holds the screws and the curve in place. I printed out a full size 1:1 printout of the layout on 8.5"x11" sheets and taped them together in large sections.  I cut out the center between the rails of each track section and we'll lay that on the roadbed and spray paint it, remove the paper template and end up w the track pattern to fit the curves to and make sure they're right.  Attached is pic of:  L-Rt: 036, 054, 060, 072.

Tom

@Dennis-LaRock posted:

Back to your electrical... how many power districts are you anticipating?

Inner Main Line, Outer Main Line, Yards, Accessories, Switch Machines... that's 5.   Mike's mention of the ZW-L isn't a terrible idea.  I personally like having the ability to have variable voltage for all my power districts... handy for running pre & post war conventional/traditional.  Others, differ to fit their own needs.

Dennis, You're pretty much righ in what we're thinking.  Outer Main, inner main, Left penninsula yard, Right penn yards (lower and upper), Center penn yard, and coal yard (bottom penninsula).  That's 6.  I'm really ignorant about powering the switch machines. Do they need their own power district (for all of them combined)?  Can those switches that feed the yards and r in the yards be powered by that tracks power district?  I guess not?  Diff voltage from 18V track power - ok i think i got it.

7 power districts.  Does that mean i need 7 180W PH's?

I like the var V for the power districts. I'd at least like to have it on a couple of power districts so i can run some conv stuff. That means we need a powermaster for each var V district we want?  Yes?

Tom 

Tom,  AWESOME!   Very nice work wrangling those Super-O curves!   The more we (or, at least me) know the better.  You can probably (time will tell) power all of your yards off one (1) bus and utilize simple on/off toggles for each spur/siding... at least that's how mine are done.

Hopefully, I ask enough questions and you provide enough answers that the real pro's can sink their teeth into your project.  I'm just a piker with a pike.

I run conventional/traditional and Legacy... all Lionel.  I do not 'run' TMCC... but, I do have TMCC locos.  I have the ZW-L and a ZW (and, many others) currently setup.  The ZW-L supplies track power to 4 districts... the ZW provides power (one bus to all) to the switch machines and two buses (16v & 18V) for accessories - all variable.   You mentioned DZs for switch machines which are fine.  I personally do not like coil fired switch machines and use Tortoise machines (they are bullet-proof).  Others will chime in who can speak to your configuration better than I.

Dennis, I used to tell my HS girls, an 800m state champ starts with the first walk around the track.  Thank you. Your questions are exactly what i need because i'm not sure what questions to ask that make any sense. 

Hmm, 1 bus - interesting, then toggle the yards on / off as needed. So, i'd run 1 main bus out to the layout, use a terminal strip to jump off to feed each yard (thru a toggle)  and feed all that w i assume, one 180W brick. ok. Let me kick that around w my son. Gotta buy more bricks.

Yeah, thanks, the curves look pretty nice. Matt did a good job on them. It takes a while to get the hang of it. I'm sure i'll be learning very soon. He's working on getting them a bit smoother yet.  By the time we get done w this layout, his curves will look factory made. 

Tom

Dennis, all our switches are Ross. Some w DZ2500 and some w DZ1000's.  We want to put a 2 color push button / toggle / touch sensitive switch on the fascia near the switch location out on the layout so we can use either the cab 2 or do it manually.  We too are All Lionel conv and Legacy - altho my son is hedging on the conv and leaning all legacy. I do have some MTH switchers (very specific Weirton Steel Corp) that will have to be run Conventional and some old smokers that i'd like to throw on for my grandson to watch.  Have some switches w nothing, so may get a tortise and experiment.

I started a new layout build thread last week - "new layout Ohio & WV"  it has all the train room prep pics from start to finish. Took us 2 yrs cause of covid and fact that layout is in GA and i live in OH.

Tom

A 180 brick is more than enough for your yards.

Here's my crappy proto-type control panel... it makes folks cringe ...but, it works perfectly (i'll make a pretty one some day... or, not)  The LED Yard toggles are on the right.  2 yards about 10 feet apart... 7 spurs/sidings and one (1) bus.

I think the choices you are making are absolutely fine.  I will pitch the tortoise for a moment.  I really do not like momentary switches... it's just like me (or, someone who I won't mention) to lean on them and burn out the coil.  Aesthetically, I prefer under mount over top mount.  Fidgeting with... adjustment of the spring tension of coil fired switch machines is not my thing... I prefer constant power holding the point to the stock rail... and lastly, there are additional relays built into the tortoise for signaling and other purposes.

One of you (you or the layout) has to move to Georgia or Ohio! 

Dennis - ahhh - Interesting. The control panel looks fine - if it works, it's perfect. I like those LED toggles. are they 15amp or 20amp??  - but you have variable voltage, so what toggles did you use.  I can see where the yards /spurs are.  I like the options you have presented here.   Thank You.  I have 3 days to start laying track or else i wont be back for several months.   

Tom

I used Steering diodes to form half-wave DC output from the AC transformer.  <-- I'm not great at explaining this stuff.  You can also use a wall wart to power up to 25 or 30 tortoises.  With the variable voltage I can give the switch machines a little less or a little more than the wall wart.  The Toggles I used are 20amp auto/boat... the diodes 1N4005 or 1N4003, I have both but cannot remember which one I used.

Tom:

You mentioned owning only ONE MTH loco for your Lionel-dominant layout.  A suggestion ... have that loco converted to TMCC with ERR parts.

Testimonial #1:  Years ago I had a conversion done on a MTH SW-1500 switcher, and it responded to my TMCC CAB-1 hand-held controller flawlessly.  I didn't want to buy pricey MTH DCS gear for only ONE loco in my modest collection of Lionel or Lionel-compatible locos. I'm an "old dog" (now 82), and I didn't want to learn new tricks; i.e., two different control systems.

Testimonial #2: Later, I bought two add'l MTH locos with PS-2 and PS-3 on board. So I climbed the learning curve for DCS control using the cheapest form of MTH's DCS technology.  It wasn't as difficult as I thought/feared. However, it's not the "full blown DCS system."

Both systems are wired to my L-shaped 15x19 home layout; each system is accessible through a knife switch but not both systems simultaneously.

Carry on, relentlessly...

Mike M.

@Mike H Mottler posted:

Tom:

Carry on, relentlessly...

That is the best advice... EVER! 

In closing and to Mike's point above... you may not need the additional complexity of  TUI(s), DCS etc. given your current inventory.   It would not significantly alter your base wiring should you decide to add those functionalities down the road.  You can do an awful lot with Legacy.  Keep it simple... you have time to consider.

l8tr

dennis