Finally Starting - New Layout, Wiring Diagram, Control Panel

Mike,

Let me be the first to welcome you to the New Layout Club!!  I am glad you are finally getting to start as well!  I followed your topic on the wiring problem.  That was a good idea to check how it would work for both DCS and conventional at one time.  

The new plan does look a bit more interesting.  One concern is access.  The original plan looks like you would have easy access to all parts of the layout.  The new one looks like you would want an access hole right where the yard is.  

What do you plan to do with the tracks at the door opening?  A lift out bridge or duck under.  I can see you made it better in the second plan so that only one track and no switches are over the opening.  

So on either plan it looks like you have an industry siding.  Do you plan to have more than one industry at the siding?  Another siding would be nice for a little more action.   Of course I know your favorite railroads, and you have them on the control panel.  Very nice design.

What engines do you plan to run, and do you have any long cars?  Do you have any preferred buildings that you want to include?

I guess that's enough questions for now.  I'll keep following your progress.

Thanks, Mark.

In response to the comment on your thread, I think I have the wiring problem figured out, but we will see once I'm actually up and running!

Access would somewhat be an issue.  I thought about making two removable cutouts inside each radius (blue and yellow circles), but I think what I could do is in the red triangle-like figure in the picture shown below.

I'm not too sure what I'm going to do at the door, I may make it a hatch-type opening, I'll work on that once I get to that part.

I'll probably only have one industrial-like area near the yard and single track on the right of the red triangle.  My plan for that track is actually a single stall engine house.  All other open areas I want to make a town.  My largest engine is a Railking Allegheny measuring about 27 inches with the tender included.  Then longest cars I will be using are the Husky Stacks which I believe are 17 inches (cant remember though).  

As far as the buildings.... I have Ethyl's Gas station and O'Grady's Tavern, BUT... I think I'm actually going to try and make all of my own.

mjrodg3n88 posted:

I posted that I was starting my 8x10 layout about 3 years ago... that never happened.

 

Hey, it happens! Delays that is. I have been planning an addition to mine for going on 2 years now. Still can't make up my mind.

I am not much of a track designer, but your plan 2 does look a little more interesting. My layout now is more like the first plan and it does get kind of old just going around in circles. Others here are good at track design and will be able to offer better suggestions like Mark has above.

What software did you use to draw your wiring diagram? That looks like a real nice drawing.

Good luck on the new layout!

Mike,

Access sounds good!  The Railking Allegheny should be fun to see running on the rails.  How could I forget the Husky Stacks?????  I'll keep watching.

rtr12 posted:

I am not much of a track designer, but your plan 2 does look a little more interesting. My layout now is more like the first plan and it does get kind of old just going around in circles. Others here are good at track design and will be able to offer better suggestions like Mark has above.

I know what you mean.  I was happy with the first one, but I kept going back to it thinking, this is going to be boring.  I'm much happier with the second one.

What software did you use to draw your wiring diagram? That looks like a real nice drawing.

I used AutoCAD to design the wiring diagram and control panel.  I'm a draftsman so I have access to 2D and 3D modeling software.

Mark Boyce posted:

Mike,

Access sounds good!  The Railking Allegheny should be fun to see running on the rails.  How could I forget the Husky Stacks?????  I'll keep watching.

I have a total of 9 husky stacks now... almost too many haha.

This past weekend I painted the room's ceiling black and started re-wiring the room.  All, but one outlet in the room will be controlled by one light switch.  This will enable me to make sure power is shut off every time I leave the room.

Next I'm debating on lights.  Recessed or track, I'm not too sure what I should do yet.  Also, I'm not sure if I should paint the walls any certain color since I'll be adding a backdrop (it will not go to the ceiling.)

Nine husky stacks!!  Well I knew you liked them a lot!!  They will define the height of your tunnel and any other overhead objects you may add.  They will probably define the width clearances as well!

Autocad is a good program for those things. I worked for a company years ago that used it, was still the MS-DOS version back then, before Windows was useable. They had a bunch of customized libraries and commands for their own use. Wiring schematics like this were very easy to do using the custom stuff they had. Unfortunately Autocad, even Lite or Sketch is too pricey for home use now that I am retired. Very nice drawings though!

mjrodg3n88 posted:

...

As far as the buildings.... I have Ethyl's Gas station and O'Grady's Tavern, BUT... I think I'm actually going to try and make all of my own.

If you're making your own, presumably you have control over the lighting.  That said, if starting from scratch I wonder if it's too bold to suggest making the leap to 12V DC accessory lighting bus - rather than old-school 14V AC and incandescent bulbs.  So much easier to work with DC if using LEDs.

Also, I see you have your switches under AIU control.  Curious if thought was given to putting Yard power and Uncouplers also under AIU control so that "everything" is controllable from the DCS remote.

rtr12 posted:

Autocad is a good program for those things. I worked for a company years ago that used it, was still the MS-DOS version back then, before Windows was useable. They had a bunch of customized libraries and commands for their own use. Wiring schematics like this were very easy to do using the custom stuff they had. Unfortunately Autocad, even Lite or Sketch is too pricey for home use now that I am retired. Very nice drawings though!

AutoCad does give some flexibility, but like you said costs a lot of money. I have AutoCad, because I'm a Structural Engineer and need it for business. Lately I have been playing with Eagle CAD, which is free for electronic PCB design. Maybe that would be a good solution for schematics for layouts, but I can't foresee using it for control panels. I would maybe suggest using SCRAM or even a free graphics program for this as an alternative. 

rtr12 posted:

Autocad is a good program for those things. I worked for a company years ago that used it, was still the MS-DOS version back then, before Windows was useable. They had a bunch of customized libraries and commands for their own use. Wiring schematics like this were very easy to do using the custom stuff they had. Unfortunately Autocad, even Lite or Sketch is too pricey for home use now that I am retired. Very nice drawings though!

Thank you!  I know its pricey, but to what extent, I'm not sure.  I've actually never seen the price.

stan2004 posted:

mjrodg3n88 posted:

As far as the buildings.... I have Ethyl's Gas station and O'Grady's Tavern, BUT... I think I'm actually going to try and make all of my own.

If you're making your own, presumably you have control over the lighting.  That said, if starting from scratch I wonder if it's too bold to suggest making the leap to 12V DC accessory lighting bus - rather than old-school 14V AC and incandescent bulbs.  So much easier to work with DC if using LEDs.

Also, I see you have your switches under AIU control.  Curious if thought was given to putting Yard power and Uncouplers also under AIU control so that "everything" is controllable from the DCS remote.

Stan,

I would prefer to do everything in LED and did not know that about DC.  What would I use for that then, an HO transformer?  If so, how many would I need?  

As far as using the DCS remote for the yard power and uncouplers... I only found out recently (by seeing a post on FB) that this can be done, however... I think relays or something are needed and that is way out of my league.  I understand electric to a point, but when getting into relays, capacitors, diodes, resistors, AC/DC, etc., I'm as confused as they come.  (I do know that houses are on 120V AC, sometimes 220V, and vehicles are 12V DC..... that type of stuff)

crood58 posted:

rtr12 posted:

Autocad is a good program for those things. I worked for a company years ago that used it, was still the MS-DOS version back then, before Windows was useable. They had a bunch of customized libraries and commands for their own use. Wiring schematics like this were very easy to do using the custom stuff they had. Unfortunately Autocad, even Lite or Sketch is too pricey for home use now that I am retired. Very nice drawings though!

AutoCad does give some flexibility, but like you said costs a lot of money. I have AutoCad, because I'm a Structural Engineer and need it for business. Lately I have been playing with Eagle CAD, which is free for electronic PCB design. Maybe that would be a good solution for schematics for layouts, but I can't foresee using it for control panels. I would maybe suggest using SCRAM or even a free graphics program for this as an alternative. 

Thanks, I might take a look at Eagle. I have been using Tinycad for wiring diagrams, but it is kind of clumsy to use unless you really learn it and make your own Libraries. Partly my fault too as in my old age I find that I just like to learn enough to get by. Of course it's been over 25 years since I used the custom Autocad stuff at work and now I probably would not know where to start wit that either. Thanks for the Eaglecad suggestion.

mjrodg3n88 posted:

rtr12 posted:

Autocad is a good program for those things. I worked for a company years ago that used it, was still the MS-DOS version back then, before Windows was useable. They had a bunch of customized libraries and commands for their own use. Wiring schematics like this were very easy to do using the custom stuff they had. Unfortunately Autocad, even Lite or Sketch is too pricey for home use now that I am retired. Very nice drawings though!

Thank you!  I know its pricey, but to what extent, I'm not sure.  I've actually never seen the price.

Back in the late '80s early '90s it was over $3,000 a copy depending on what you got with it. Those could have also been lower prices as my employer may have gotten a corporate discount because they had quite a few copies, I'm guessing well over a hundred throughout the company. I don't know what it costs now though? I imagine it's still enough that you could get 6 or 8 nice new PS3 or Legacy diesels or a few steamers for the same price. 

mjrodg3n88 posted:...

I would prefer to do everything in LED and did not know that about DC.  What would I use for that then, an HO transformer?  If so, how many would I need?  

As far as using the DCS remote for the yard power and uncouplers... I only found out recently (by seeing a post on FB) that this can be done, however... I think relays or something are needed and that is way out of my league.  I understand electric to a point, but when getting into relays, capacitors, diodes, resistors, AC/DC, etc., I'm as confused as they come.  (I do know that houses are on 120V AC, sometimes 220V, and vehicles are 12V DC..... that type of stuff)

 

If going with 12V DC as an accessory lighting voltage bus you could use a 12V DC wall-wart, 12V DC power supply adapter, 12V DC from a PC power supply, etc.  Hundreds if not thousands of choices.  Less than $10 and any of them would power hundreds of LEDs.

But if you're lacking time or aren't comfortable working at the component or module level, there are many suppliers of LED lights and lighting products which can directly connect to the 14V AC Accessory voltage from many train transformers...or to the AC voltage from your KW set to 14V AC (or whatever you choose).  These products have the diodes, resistors, etc. built-in to work so you don't have to mess with AC vs. DC, regulated vs. unregulated, Amps vs. mA, and similar jargon tossed about with LEDs and lighting.

As for using the DCS-AIU to control Yard power and/or Uncouplers, who would have thunk that you read about it first on FB rather than OGR!  There have been several OGR threads on how to do this and, yes, in some cases you need to add relays, in other cases you don't.  So to your point, it can be confusing! 

Everyone has their view-of-the-world but as I see it, the electronics used in O gauge depends on what is going on in other more mainstream applications (automotive, PC, communications, etc.).  So we pick up the scraps where we can...like 12V DC LED lighting strips.  It was a big-win to discover these could be adapted to O-gauge applications.  But as you have seen in your other thread, maybe not such a big-win for adapting 120V AC panel meters to O-gauge voltages!

I guess it comes down to what you want to do.  And, since you're in the planning stage with somewhat of a blank canvas, I figure now's the time to blue-sky the options. What you don't want is the "V8 moment" where after everything is built and wired, you realize you could have had a fill-in-the-blank....

stan2004 posted:

If going with 12V DC as an accessory lighting voltage bus you could use a 12V DC wall-wart, 12V DC power supply adapter, 12V DC from a PC power supply, etc.  Hundreds if not thousands of choices.  Less than $10 and any of them would power hundreds of LEDs.

Something like this Here ?  If so, how exactly do you hook it up and to what?  I guess I don't understand this aspect...yet.

But if you're lacking time or aren't comfortable working at the component or module level, there are many suppliers of LED lights and lighting products which can directly connect to the 14V AC Accessory voltage from many train transformers...or to the AC voltage from your KW set to 14V AC (or whatever you choose).  These products have the diodes, resistors, etc. built-in to work so you don't have to mess with AC vs. DC, regulated vs. unregulated, Amps vs. mA, and similar jargon tossed about with LEDs and lighting.

I've used Evan Designs so far, bought about 20 LEDs off of them for my control panel, this can get a little expensive though.  I'd like to learn how to do this stuff anyway.  Actually, GRJ has given some insight in the past.

I'm sure hooking up the switches and uncouplers to the AIU could be confusing, I never did search the forum to find out the info though, I think I may just do that now.

 

I definitely do not want to regret not doing something.  While I can easily buy the lighting from places such as Evan Designs and stay with the AC voltage, I feel like it may be more cost efficient to go the DC route?

On another note, I'm making some progress in the room that I will be using for the trains.  I removed the previously installed raceway electric (locations in blue rectangles) and installed in-wall mounted electric.  Also, this electric was on two different circuits before and is now on one controlled by a switch.  I felt like that would be beneficial to make sure when leaving, all train equipment is turned off.

I've also painted the ceiling black and installed 6 - 6 inch recessed lights using 65 watt bright white LED bulbs and removed the florescent fixture (still shown in the picture).  

In the corner of the room, someone had built a box (shown in the red circle) to hide what looks like old A/C lines.  I removed that box and patched up the wall.  Also, I opened the doorway the the train room up about 16 inches or so and removed the out of place pegboard.  Tonight I should be able to get two coats of primer on the walls to hide that awful yellow and my black over-spray.  With any luck at all, I should be able to start building my bench work later this week.

Any ideas on what color I should paint the walls?  In the future I am planning on using a backdrop the whole way around the room, but not all the way to the ceiling.

**Note: Please ignore the messy laundry room.  In the process of working on the train room, I also removed all of the orange pegboard and installed all new drywall there too.  (It must also be noted, we did not paint that pegboard orange... it was like that when we bought the house.)

Ahhh, the room exists and you changed the lighting. Good work!

Look at the first post photos here: new Layout progress 

I use Sherwin Williams Tibetan Sky,#7134. it's my eye's match of the horizon just above tree line on a perfectly clear sunny day.

The green that I chose is Sherwin Williams Generator Green #4070.

Use the primer from the same manufacturer of paint that you choose to use everywhere. Then, the colors.

I like an eggshell base. Doesn't hold dust as much and can be wiped with a damp sponge or cloth.

That's my 2¢.

You have been busy Mike and have made great improvements!  I wish I had a young man's energy again!  LOL

I agree with Carl to use a light blue.  I do not have a specific shade to suggest, so I will take a look at Carl's suggestions myself, since I hope to be doing the same by the end of winter.  Thank you Carl!

Thank you Carl and Mark.

Carl, question... your link sends me to Norm Charbonneau's layout.  Am I missing something?

mjrodg3n88 posted:

Thank you Carl and Mark.

Carl, question... your link sends me to Norm Charbonneau's layout.  Am I missing something?

No, not missing anything.

I wanted you to see the color effect of light blue sky and perhaps an industrial detail for the lower half of the wall. His is empty and a good example. I don't think that you need a second color, now that I have worked with the space. just a sky blue would work.

Question, is your room 8' x 10'? I grabbed your plan B (assuming that's what you are building and it was too wide. )

I recreated it and added 10" ground tracks to keep both outside rails common. Worked on some fitment for an 8' x 10' space.

Track fitting guide

Thank you, Carl.  Yes, the Plan B that I have setup is what I plan on using in the 8' x 10' room.  Actual dimensions are 100" x 117".  It was too wide?  So the ground tracks tie the outside rails together then?  I did not know that.  I could also solder them, correct (assuming thats what it does)?

Looks like a fun to operate layout you are designing.  Having built and operated many layouts, I have found that most running issues (i.e. derailments) happen at or around switches so I try to have all switches within easy reach.

You may consider moving relocating the switch at the back of the layout further around to the end of your isle.

Good luck with you build.

Happy railroading,

Don

mjrodg3n88 posted:

Thank you, Carl.  Yes, the Plan B that I have setup is what I plan on using in the 8' x 10' room.  Actual dimensions are 100" x 117".  It was too wide?  So the ground tracks tie the outside rails together then?  I did not know that.  I could also solder them, correct (assuming thats what it does)?

100" wide may work, but it won't leave much clearance to the wall. length seems fine, although close.

yes, it does join both. The anti-derailing feature of the switches interrupts the rail continuity as well as which side of the track the lock-on is installed or the orientation of that terminal track.

Soldering a jumper will work. That's what we did at the museum layout.(250' of RealTrax and 15 switches) Made a bunch of jumpers, tinned the stripped ends. Tinned a drop on the track terminals and then attached them. I find that it provides better running.

DGJONES posted:

You may consider moving relocating the switch at the back of the layout further around to the end of your isle.

 Don, see the attached update, I know some of the track doesn't line up, but I have a feeling I can make it work.  This also gives me two reverse loops.

Moonman posted:

100" wide may work, but it won't leave much clearance to the wall. length seems fine, although close.

I may be able to take out a 3.5" inch in a few places and change a couple of the other pieces.

Soldering a jumper will work. That's what we did at the museum layout.(250' of RealTrax and 15 switches) Made a bunch of jumpers, tinned the stripped ends. Tinned a drop on the track terminals and then attached them. I find that it provides better running.

Do the ends need to be tinned?  (Do you do that just with solder?)

Also, I went to HD at lunch and picked up a gallon of SW Tibetan Sky paint.  They have the color codes right in their computer.

Here is an updated attempt.  I like that it moves the second crossover to within reach as Don has stated.  Also, I like that it provides a second reverse loop.  The only issue is that it takes a little bit away from a viewing area and also the one siding.  

The track I have highlighted in yellow was to be my engine shed/maintenance area, but I'm considering eliminating that and putting an access hole there instead, as Mark has suggested.

Yes Mike, as John C. Suggests, figure no reach over 30".  I have seen guys use those ladders like museums use that allow you to reach over farther, but you have to maneuver the thing in and I still think they would be a pain.  You are young enough to be able to use a pop up access opening with ease!  :-) Besides, you can get your wife to take a photo of you surrounded by your layout literally!  ;-)  those photos are always cool!

Be certain, if you build a control panel, to watch Laidoffsick's video on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLqbJAPpNDE

The Sky color is actually a white tinted with a little blue. You'll see it when the dot on the can dries. The color off of the wall will look different depending on the amount of light hitting it.

I never liked the obvious robin egg blues or darker colors that looked unnatural. The sky is tough color mimic. I hope you like it. if anything, you'll want more blue at first.

I got away from Behr and went to SW commercial lines. ( a commercial store is not too far from me.) I get better smoothness and more mileage.

Make a 100" x 117" table (tool box) and move the whole plan B (yours) on to it. I wasn't trying to upset the applecart.

The access hatch can have a shed on top of it. Just supply track feeders to the hatch track. You can cut a track in half for the seam.

Thanks, Mark.

Eliot, I definitely did that earlier today.  I think it was you that suggested it on another thread at some point.  I use the heck out of the search feature on this forum.  I usually always search before asking questions.  That video was very helpful and priced out Lexan on my trip to HD at lunch.

Carl,  I saw exactly what you mean with the color.  I looked at the dot and asked the guy if he mixed it haha, it looked white.  Its okay, I was contemplating blue or white, so this will be perfect I bet.  No worries at all about "the applecart," I welcome all ideas, changes, suggestions.  As far as the access spot, I considered just leaving a hole there, but I could definitely just make it a hatch and leave the scenery on it.

If my drywall mud (final skimcoat) has dried the way I hope, I should be able to maybe get the room primed and possibly one coat of paint on tonight, we will see.

The track plan I recreated fits in a 100" x 117". The sides are about 3 1/4" roadbed to wall. The top and bottom are about 1/2".  No Big Boys overhanging the O54.

Mike,

   Looks great, my only concern would be the RealTrax switches, everything else is a go as far as engineering design goes.

Have fun building buddy!

PCRR/Dave

for the aux power on  your TIU.  just use a small transformer from a WIFI.  I get them on Ebay all the time.  ill post a pic of ones that I use.  that way, you can use the Z500 for lighting or small power of the layout Channel.  Id go get some z1000 for the TIU.  I got a bunch at the Train show at monroeville.  

I have a Z750 for the TIU and a Z500 for Aux, just because I had them and wasn't using them for anything else.  I agree. I could replace the Z500 with something else and make better use of the Z500.

Chris, are you going to The Greenberg show this weekend?  Mike and are going to try to meet up there Saturday.

Here are a couple of my control panels... Lexan is definitely the way to go.

Charlie,

Those are extremely handsome!

Thanks, Dave.

Moonman posted:

The track plan I recreated fits in a 100" x 117". The sides are about 3 1/4" roadbed to wall. The top and bottom are about 1/2".  No Big Boys overhanging the O54.

Thanks for your help, Carl.  No worrying about a Big Boy, they are are WAY out of my price range!

Chris D posted:

for the aux power on  your TIU.  just use a small transformer from a WIFI.  I get them on Ebay all the time.  ill post a pic of ones that I use.  that way, you can use the Z500 for lighting or small power of the layout Channel.  Id go get some z1000 for the TIU.  I got a bunch at the Train show at monroeville.  

Chris, like Mark, I'm using the Z500 because it was there.  I'm content with that.  I went with Lionel PH180 instead of MTH Z1000s because of the fast acting circuit breaker in them.  GRJ suggested a nice DC power supply for LEDs on the layout, so I think I'm going with that for lighting and my old KW for the turnout and operating track power.

Charlie,
I will definitely be going with Lexan.  I have a few ideas about it already.  Thank you.

I've been working like crazy on preparing the train room since I've last posted. 


To the right, you can see the switches for the train room, one for the lights, the other which has a "pilot" light is to turn on all of the outlets in the room.

You can see on the floor how much (or little) I opened up this doorway.



The window in the room is at ground level and I don't particularly trust people, so I tried to secure the window while leaving able to be opened.


I secured a chain in a joist so that I could hold the wood up if I want to be able to see out of the window.




Now for the track plan, I had an idea last night (that may not be a good thing, ha).  My Proto 1 Southern F3 ABA along with its cars (I have 7, but all of them will probably be too much for a small space like mine) I would like to keep on the track somewhere, but can't do that in the current configuration.  With that, I considered adding an underground "yard" slash reverse loop.  I'd leave the F3 and its cars on that underground track except for when I wanted to run it.  My question is, will it work?  I know it is said to keep grades below 4% (best at 2.5%) but since this is not for looks and more for function, could I drop it at 5% (or more)?  I would need it to clear one of the mainlines pretty quickly, I just don't if that engine will pull cars at such a steep grade.  If this doesn't work, its not a big deal, I just thought it'd be easier to get that particular engine out and running.

Thoughts?  See the underground track in blue.


Now, for the great news, well at least for me it is.  The train room is ready, and tonight, I will finally start building the benchwork.  Which leads me to another question.  I'm going to be using 2x4s (because they are much cheaper than 1X) and already have about 25 of them.  I only understand L-Girder a little, but I'm wondering if I should try to mimic that or go to open grid (I think thats what its called).  I plan on using risers for the track and think that I could get away with open grid.

Thoughts again?

Mike,

First of all the room looks great!!  It looks like you thought of everything!  You have accomplished a lot in a short time.

I like the idea of parking that train, but as you mentioned that is a short, steep run!  Why don't you set something up temporarily like I did to see if my engines could pull the length train I envisioned using up the grade.  I happened to have my Woodland Scenics foam grade riser sections from 25 years ago and tested 6%, more than I needed.  If we can meet up at the Greenberg show on Saturday, I will bring them along and you can keep them until I see you again.

i have built open grid and L-girder.  Both worked fine for me.  I say build what you are familiar with, unless someone else can convince both of us to the other. 

Here is my test in an 11 1/2 foot room.

Mike,

The problem with going down at that location is that there is only the 4 - O42 curves to achieve the drop of 5" is a 9.5% grade to provide clearance for train, then you have increase that another 3.75" to clear the framing.

Since the train is almost 14' long, this needs a rethink.

I just tried a few different ways. Not enough room to stay at level. From the switch near the bridge to the switch at the top of the O54 loop, it will hold the engines and six cars. That's both 90° corners and the long straight run. That's a 5.6% slope in 143" to 8".

Ok, see if this works for you...cut out sub-roadbed on pylons as an elevated line to park the long train. The loop past the switch is 160". The grade to the switch is 5%. The elevated loop is in Layer 1 to view it in the 2D track plan. Avoids going under and dealing with the quick drop and framing.

Mark, thanks for the offer!  I'm not sure I'm going to do it yet or not.

Carl, I completely agree with you, that first proposal definitely would not work.  I'm sure your suggestion would work, however...  I never mentioned this, but I planned on having an elevated town (on top of tunnels) in the back left of the layout so I don,t know if I could pull it off.  Yesterday I did a reconfigure of just the loop we are talking about to this (another under):



I did the math and I think it would be a 5% grade down to clear everything, BUT..... I laid the track out on the floor last night and I think the curves will end up being too close to the wall.  The cars following the ABA are 18" long passenger cars requiring O42 curves.  I think the overhang may smack the wall.  In that case and not sure if I'd do the elevated track, I may just scrap this idea.

It's unfortunate that you started another thread on the topic of bench work because you are going to get comments in both threads and some will be duplicated depending on who's reading which thread. There are already several comments in the other thread.

DoubleDAZ posted:

It's unfortunate that you started another thread on the topic of bench work because you are going to get comments in both threads and some will be duplicated depending on who's reading which thread. There are already several comments in the other thread.

Thanks, Dave.  I know that, but unfortunately not everybody looks at member's build threads, therefore a post in the other seemed more appropriate.  I even mentioned that in my initial post in the other thread.

Also, thank you for your service.