New Legacy Berkshire on the Bay

Hold your horses C. Sam they will drop even lower. Just have to have some patience.

But understandable, C. Sam:

 

1) I think Lionel has it slightly overpriced it (having bought one, I feel qualified to say this . . .).

 

2) I'm not sure a lot of people want one anyway, 

 

and . . . 

 

3) Who knows for sure that this particular one is not a problem loco someone is dumping?  (I'm not casting aspersions on the seller - he seems to be top rated in about four dozen transactions.  On the other hand, my worst e-bay adventure came from a top rated seller so I'm probably not the only one who is wary . . . 

 

Given the discounts some sites seem to be dipping to, if you want one, paying a bit more for a known-to be NIB model from someone you've done business with in the past would make a lot of sense - at least to me.

"I never met a model locomotive I didn't like." (except my new Legacy Berkshire)

 

Ha!  Just noticed the change to your signature Lee.  That's too bad as it seems the K-Line Berks were highly desirable earlier. One would think that the improvements Lionel has made to the K-Line steamers would be most welcome. Our K-Line steamers (Hudson, Mikados, and B6's) were extremely nice but needed the modern electronics.

And for THAT, Lionel charges about $500 more! I'm not sure that Legacy sounds/control is really worth THAT much more. 

Weren't they originally in the K Line Catalog for like $900 or $1000? The only real reason the K line version was so much cheaper was because of the manufacturer blow out sale after K Line went belly up. So in reality, they really aren't charging $500 for Legacy.

I believe the berkshires (Lionel's) came out at too high of a price. I'll be looking for one but not no where near the going price. I'll just wait for the blow out. 

Sam. I just sent you and e-mail.

No matter what the K-Line Catalog price was, when they came out you could purchase one for about $700. When the "blow-outs" started, they dropped to $500 -$450. Lionel's current catalog price is over $1200, thus the Legacy features are about $500 more than an original K-Line model.

 

Now, if I could purchase one of the new Lionel B&A Berks, for about $450, I'd strongly consider that. Especially since Lionel put the drive motor in the correct orientation. 

If someone purchased that ebay lot, would the engine have any factory warantee?

It was listed as new, in a sealed box.

Yeah, I'm honked off about it.  Mine had no defects - it is exactly as Lionel intended it to be.  So, it runs well - except it takes a long time after powering up before it figures out it is not running on DCC and will respond to conventional control ( a very long time).

 

But passing over that, the detail, paint, etc., are good.  The lights, whistle, and bell all work just like they should on any $800-$900 loco.  Problem is this one cost $1,300.  And no whistle steam as advertised.  And also advertised as 26.5" long but only 24".  A big disappointment.  

 

I've got a a long additional story and details relating to the fact that it is not scale even though it was advertised as scale, but I will wait until later: I plan to "fix" those problems on mine with some major surgery and will post pictures then and it will be clear then.  But that has to wait until a project for the grandkids is done, and that seems to be taking forever . . . 

Sure don't know why you are still on this "it's not scale" kick. Just because Lionel may have shortened up the gap between the cab and the tender, why would you consider that "too short"?

 

The K-line Berks where scale, and so is the Lionel re-issue of those 1927 Berks. The real ones were "small" thus, so is the model! Stop trying to compare it to the NKP, PM, and C&O modern era BIG 2-8-4 locomotive models.

quote:

Pretty sure you have to buy from a licensed Lionel dealer to get the warranty. 

 

I think so too. If true, given the price and availability of parts, that should put a major dent in the resale value of all recently made Lionel, even when they are still in a sealed box.

It seems to me that we have been Berk'd to death. Could be the reason for slow sales that have nothing to do with the engine itself.

>>>It seems to me that we have been Berk'd to death. Could be the reason for slow sales that have nothing to do with the engine itself.<<<

 

Actually,

I think at the prices these things cost today, its more like folks are asking themselves,  would I rather have two Berks and two K4's,  Or...pick one and enjoy a beautiful European vacation?

Life is short... As the hobby grows older and wiser, I think the later is winning out.

Joe 

These Berks are nice but out of their price bracket. The 765 and 1225, are more monumental than the K-line  re-released Berks. Still highly sought after.
I really like the SP version with the coffin feed water heater, however I will wait for the price to come down to about 600-650.

A good point Joe. another that bothers me at this price point, after we shell out all this money they don't have parts to fix them with. As some one mentioned not too long ago, Lionel needs to start using more compatible parts....jim

Jim,

LIONEL has the parts to fix these. If you think they don't, just call them and see. I will guarantee you that Mike has the parts in house to fix these.

Do you mean TMCC?  There is no DCC in "O" product.  If the loco is taking a long time to enter conventional control, (greater than 1/3 of a second), then maybe the TMCC radio is confused if picking up a weak TMCC signal.  If you do not have a TMCC base powered up - then it may need serviced.

>>thus the Legacy features are about $500 more than an original K-Line model.

 

The cost of Legacy is not directly proportional to the loco price in this situation.  That statement is an oversimplification of the issues; including rising production costs in components and labor, and lower production volumes due to lowered demand.  Lower production volumes drive up the per piece price.   If the loco was conventional only, it would not be $500 less, it would be $100 less(estimated).

>>>The cost of Legacy is not directly proportional to the loco price in this situation.  That statement is an oversimplification of the issues; including rising production costs in components and labor, and lower production volumes due to lowered demand.  Lower production volumes drive up the per piece price.   If the loco was conventional only, it would not be $500 less, it would be $100 less(estimated).<<<

Was watching a new Santa Fe Legacy Berk last week (just dreamin') listed at $875 that apparently went unsold. (O bids)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/300749...id=p3984.m1438.l2649

This seems rather strange with them selling for $1000+ or so elsewhere...

 

I think there is another issue.  The engine is a fantasy Santa Fe Berk and usually people willing to spend $1000 plus want an accurate model of something that actually existed.  Previously K-Line did an accurate model of the Santa Fe Berkshire, but this one isn't it.

 

Another Santa Fe Berk on eBay is truly worth considering.  An accurate 3rd Rail version of a Berkshire that Santa Fe owned.  This is what the boiler should look like.  Study it and then look at the Lionel version.

 

 

 

Marker,  is the 3rd Rail a model of roughly the same prototype as the K-Line (Lionel) out now supposed to be?  If so, how does the length and overall size size of the 3rd Rail model compare if you know?

Thanks

If you compare the cost of the conventional (6-11331) and Legacy (6-11330) Scale K4s , the price difference is exactly $150.  To me, you need to compare apples to apples and this is the closest example I can think of where the only difference is Legacy.  I think that is a pretty fair price difference all other things being equal.

They have had my Berk for about 1 month and it's not fixed yet.  I had it 1 day.

 

Doug

Doug,

 

It sometimes takes a 6-8 weeks after the engines ship for Lionel Service to break down the parts.  I had to wait about 7 weeks for a truck for my DD35A since it had one set of gears that didn't even touch. 

 

They will get the parts.  Will the parts be available in 7 years?  Maybe / Maybe not.

 

What part is needed?

 

Jim

My last 2 engine repairs only took 1 week (Mikado, Mallet).  I guess they spoiled me.

 

Doug

Marker,  is the 3rd Rail a model of roughly the same prototype as the K-Line (Lionel) out now supposed to be?  If so, how does the length and overall size size of the 3rd Rail model compare if you know?

Sam, the point I'm trying to make is that the new Legacy Berkshire is a model of a different engine than Santa Fe had.  The new Legacy Berkshire just has a Santa Fe paint job.

 

The old K-Line Santa Fe Berkshire had a different boiler than the Santa Fe Legacy Berkshire.  K-Line used more than one boiler, or they used different details on the same boiler.  The easiest way to tell the proper boiler is to look at the sand dome.  It should be the same as the one above with NO large steam lines running to it.

 

The 3rd Rail engine (the picture above), was from a few years ago. It IS an accurate model of a 4193 Class Santa Fe Berkshire, and probably the most accurate that will ever be made.

 

The new Lionel Legacy is a model of a Boston and Albany Berkshire.

 

The accurate Santa Fe engine should be a model of a Boston and Maine Berkshire, Santa Fe bought from B&M, as did Southern Pacific.

 

The Boston and Albany and the Boston & Maine Berkshires are two different engines.

 

Here is B&A Berkshire (the model the Lionel Legacy version is based on)  look at the sand dome compared to the B&M Berkshire.

 

 

 

quote:

They will get the parts.  Will the parts be available in 7 years?  Maybe / Maybe not.

 

Does Lionel have a significant stock of parts for seven year old product right now? My impression is that they do not.

Last year we were told that Lionel orders extra finished pieces, and disassembles them to supply parts. Unless they are getting seperate orders of high demand parts, that means that Lionel will quickly run out of commonly needed parts, and have the parts nobody ever needs until the parts are cleared to Lionel's undertaker.

Lionel has a trendous catalog of parts listed online. Most of what I look at are marked as unavailable, or available from North Lima trainworks.

 

But even if parts are available, not having the warantee is a big deal. Parts can be rather costly, and if you are unable to do your own work, so is labor.

" . . . that means that Lionel will quickly run out of commonly needed parts, . . . "

 

If Lionel manages this like similar situations I have seen in other industries that are similar, the way they would do this is that the "commonly needed parts" - those that wear our or break a lot, are common to a lot of models, not just this one.  

So, they order, say, only 3% or whatever number they determine they need more Berks than they plan to sell, and take them apart, so they have a stock of tender shells, loco shells, drivers, chassis mounting boards, and assorted this-particular-Berk specific parts to handle seven years of anticipated requests.  But the motor, gears, pilot wheels, center pickups, springs, screws, circuit boards, speakers, etc., etc., etc., etc., and etc., are all the same they use in Pacifics and Atlantics and  Moguls and Mallets, and so forth. . .  those they just order lots of basic parts for stock. 

"The engine is a fantasy Santa Fe Berk and usually people willing to spend $1000 plus want an accurate model."

 

Yes!  that is part of the issue.  However, I knew from the photos about what it looked like and that the sand dome, etc., was not exactly SF 4101-class accurate.  I still ordered it.  

 

Please - once before I started a thread about the Berk not being scale and the thread quickly turned mean wow - people where upset.  I'm interested in constructive and friendly feedback, and do want to share - but: my railroad, my rules.  I am making the changes I talk about at the end, below, after I explain why I have determined my Berk "is not scale.": right or wrong those changes will give me the loco I want. 

 

The length is okay.  I've obtained four different sets of dimensions to the 4101 class, including one from a book my great uncle had from 1937 (he worked for SF and drove 4101s, I think, among other locos).  Anyway, the four sets of dimensions vary slightly or measure slightly different ways (how exactly is overall length defined, etc.?) of course.   Regardless, it's clear that this little (24" versus 26.5" advertised) ex-K-line casting model Berk is actually just about the scale length for a 4101: it may be off by a 1/8 or 1/4 inch but its length is suitable enough for me.  I have no problem that.  (Lionel's other, 26.5 inch long casting of a Berk is of a later, bigger Berk, by the way). 

 

The height is not okay, at least around the cab. The first photo below shows my Berk back to back with the Lionel scale Atlantic, which is a very accurate rendering of that loco.  Look at the cab and compare it to the Atlantic's.  My  Berk has a scale six feet of headroom at the highest point in the cab.  By contrast this Atlantic, and every other scale steam loco I own, has seven feet (or more) of headroom.  

       Now, look at the second photo below, from way back when, of SF 4196.  Note the height of the "ridge" from boiler to cab rooftop in the photo, versus the much smaller ridge (less than half the height to the eye) on my model: Overall, the cab is just too small.    The overall difference in cab height is only a scale foot, 1/4" at 1:48, but that is 14% of the cab headroom and very noticeable to the eye.  The small size of the cab makes this Berk seem "wrong" alongside any other scale steamer I have, including this Atlantic.  

      Near as I can determine from old photos and drawings in books and websites the model's cab roof is 3/16th too low at its highest point - part of the issue seems to be the 4101 cab roof was bowed or more circular - rising more in the middle than on this Lionel model).  Also the lower edge of the cab side is about 1/16 inch too high - a tiny amount but important to the eye.  

    So, I plan to make those two changes to the my Berk, adding a higher and more bowed/rounded cab roof that is only 3/32 inch higher at the outer edges but rises to a total of 3/16th inch higher in the middle, and adding an extensions of 1/16th inch to the lower lip of the cab.  I will also lengthen it slightly (at the back because that is easiest, by a proportionate amount (about 5/32").  Small changes that will make a big difference to the eye.  I won't get to this for six weeks, given a train layout I have to complete for my grandkids, but this project is next.  

I accept that 3rd Rail engines will always have more detail and greater fidelity to the prototype than Lionel engines.  I don't think many out there would dispute that.  Even though 3rd Rail engines are superior in appearance, detail, and fidelity, I buy Lionel steam engines because of the operational smoothness of Legacy (amazing) and the features like swinging bell and smoking whistle that enhance play value.

 

I would have happily shelled out 1200 bucks for the Legacy ATSF Berk despite the possibility that it may or not be exactly scale (depends who you ask) and despite the fact that it is not an exact replica of the real thing IF Lionel had not dropped the steam whistle effect or IF they had sent out a statement about it being dropped and lowered the price.

 

It looks nice enough and I am sure it is a good runner, but I canceled my order because I could not justify paying full price for an engine that lacked an important feature (for me).

 

If a year from now Lionel has a few sitting in a warehouse and blows them out I will buy one, if not I am happy to do without.  I won't lose any sleep over passing on this one.  

Lee - the 4101 Class is not the same as the 4193 Class and it isn't about measurements. 

 

We are now talking about 3 engines.  The Santa Fe 4101 Class is a pure Santa Fe engine built by Baldwin which was the engine builder of choice for the Santa Fe.

 

 

 

The 4193 Class Berk was a class of a few engines purchased used from the Boston and Maine railroad because of a power shortage on the Santa Fe.

 

 

 

The Lionel Legacy Berkshire is a Boston and Albany engine with Santa Fe markings that never ran on Santa Fe rails.

 

 

You should be able to see the differences just by looking at the boilers.

 

If you have an interest in knowing what's what about Santa Fe equipment, a good start is purchasing and studying "Iron Horses of the Santa Fe" by Worley.  It is the bible of Santa Fe locomotives from the late 1800's through about 1965.

 

There is a copy on eBay right now.  I've seen them go for over $150 although the price seems to be coming down.

 

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=iron+horses+of+the+santa+fe&_sacat=0

 

About the time I became a member of the  Santa Fe Railway Historical & Modeling Society, I learned that this book was a necessity for any Santa Fe modeler.

Here is a K-Line (by K-Line) scale berk on the bay that has been there for a month or so for $750...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/290747...id=p3984.m1438.l2649

"Lee - the 4101 Class is not the same as the 4193 Class and it isn't about measurements."

 

True, and I got to that conclusion eventually - guess I jsut didn't make that clear.  Confusing - so many different Berks, some small, others bigger.  

 

But it is about measurements.  

 

I should have been clearer.  I want a model of a real SF Berk.  I don't really care about which SF Berk, a 4101 or a later one - don't care as long as its a real SF loco that my great uncle probably drove . . . he was with ATSF from about 1933 or so until the mid 70s when he retired.

 

Since I found dimensions and all for the 4196 and it seems to be the only one with pictures and all around to document it well, and it looks so similar in the front of the boiler to my Berk, I will make my Berk into the closest I can to 4196 - the loco in that old photo and one for which I have some drawings and dimensions in an old book.  As observed earlier, the Lionel Berk , as is, is a pure fantasy loco. I'll change the cab to the right size,, and try to change the sand dome and other details if I can.  

 

And yes, it might be easier to just buy a 3rd Rail - but I  just don't want to get into brass . . .  never really was happy with it in HO and N.

Here is a picture of the K-Line Santa Fe Berk. Sorry it is not of better quality. It matches the dimensions of the prototype. The prototypes have an engine/tender wheel base of 80-85 feet. That's only 20-21 inches in O. 

 

The B&A and B&M A1 type Berkshires where of the same basic design, shared the same boiler, and both built by Lima. However, as pointed out, some of the accents on the the boiler such as sand domes and the steam pipe were different.

 

I have been hoping that Lionel would do to their 2-10-10-2 what Santa Fe did to them; Santa Fe cut them in half. The result was the class "Santa Fe' 2-10-2. However, such a locomotive in O Scale would be only be about the same size as the postwar 726 berk despite its 2-10-2 arrangement.  I would imagine that there would be many complaints about that, so I doubt that it would be done.

 

Also, keep in mind that just because something is smaller does not equate to it being less expensive to construct or manufacture.

quote:

If Lionel manages this like similar situations I have seen in other industries that are similar, the way they would do this is that the "commonly needed parts" - those that wear our or break a lot, are common to a lot of models, not just this one.

 

Hopefully they are doing this.

 

But a "commonly needed part" for a specific model still may be unique to that piece.

Wasn't there a breakage problem with the universl drive shaft  that was used on one specific engine (the first shay?)

 

Boy has this thread taken many directions.  Time to put it to rest.

Okay - Here is a picture of my 3rd Rail Berk that Santa Fe purchased from B&M in the 1940's.  (Double click on the picture to pop it out so you can see the details better.)   

 

With regard to the early K-Line ATSF Berks, I didn't realize that the sand dome was not correct.  It has been too many years since I've seen one. 

 

Lee - If you want a Berkshire that Santa Fe really ran, you ought to seriously consider the one on eBay right now.  They don't come up too often.  I haven't seen on in a couple of years, although I may have missed some.