New Legacy EM1 Whistle Isn't What Many Wanted?

Attached is a clip of the whistle we've put in the B&O skus. It is the same that is in the video. It's a pitched down version of one of the hooter whistles we've used in the past. We felt it was representative of what we listened to in the video. I can certainly see the viewpoint of the whistle in the Y6b being similar as well. We chose what we felt was correct to use. (yes, just like in the Pennsy J)

For the chuffs, these engines do have what we call "drift chuff" which is where there are 8 chuffs/rev that phase in and out of each other to represent two different sets of chuffs. It's what we did with the Vision Big Boy. In the video, the engine is just in the part of the sequence where the two engines are chuffing at the same time. Hopefully that makes sense.

These engines are already on the water and will be shipped as-is. We will not be changing the whistle. I am just being up front about that. I'll likely get angry emails like I always do, but I cannot please everyone.

One thing that I look forward to with our new development for Legacy electronics is the 5 whistle/horn options. Every Legacy engine starting in the 2020 Big Book is getting the new electronics, and will features 5 different whistles and/or horns to choose from. For each sku, we will select the 5 whistles/horns that are applicable to the road name, with the selected "prototype" being the default.

Happy Tuesday!

Dave

@Dave Olson posted:

Attached is a clip of the whistle we've put in the B&O skus. It is the same that is in the video. It's a pitched down version of one of the hooter whistles we've used in the past. We felt it was representative of what we listened to in the video. I can certainly see the viewpoint of the whistle in the Y6b being similar as well. We chose what we felt was correct to use. (yes, just like in the Pennsy J1

 

Happy Tuesday!

Dave

Well there you have it. Lionel says its correct, so its correct.......LOL.

@RickO posted:

Well there you have it. Lionel says its correct, so its correct.......LOL.

Amazing! I wonder why the folks at Lionel can't/don't consult experts in the field of real steam locomotives before decisions like this are made? A review of historic videos could answer pretty much any & all potential questions.

This is interesting. While searching for a good video, found this from 2014. It appears that they were blowing some B&O whistles. Second one sounds like the EM1, runs about a minute.  Not sure what the other whistles are, but have a listen. Begins at 30 seconds.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WtdYuFh95G8

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

This is interesting. While searching for a good video, found this from 2014. It appears that they were blowing some B&O whistles. Second one sounds like the EM1, runs about a minute.  Not sure what the other whistles are, but have a listen. Begins at 30 seconds.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WtdYuFh95G8

Right. Typical B&O, N&W, C&O "hooter" whistle, although blown on lower pressure steam than on a working locomotive.

Cool the generic hooter is back 

I'm not a customer for this loco, but I'm glad I read the discussion. I was impressed by and enjoyed Mr. Olson's comments, for one thing. A choice of five different whistles/horns without having to download a new sound set from the web sounds like a nice future feature. 

I hope those of you who are deeply disappointed and/or angry can find some  happiness with another locomotive.  

Hi Dave, 

Thanks for chiming in on this issue, it is much appreciated.  

I want to thank you and the team at Lionel for bringing us great products.  I know it is not easy or cheap to develop these models, and I as hobbyist thank you.  Lionel locomotives make up the vast majority of my fleet along with Legacy and many other products (rolling stock, buildings, etc). 

I do, however, want to suggest that Lionel please try to, at times, be a little more dilligent in the whistles used on premium legacy locos.  It is well known that the whistle on the recent PRR J1 was not in any way correct, lots of evidence was offered on this forum for that.  Speaking for myself, it is somewhat disappointing when a loco has a completely wrong whistle.  It is especially disappointing when either: 1) there are ample sound clips/movies/historical societies, etc. that can provide the correct whistles, or 2) Lionel has included the correct sound in previous releases of the model. 

This only seems to happen from time to time, and please don't get me wrong, there are many examples of "home runs" for Lionel in engine sounds (Vision line Big Boys, Niagaras, Amtrak F40s, and on and on). 

In my opinion, Lionel has been the leader in engine sounds for a long time.  I well remember getting back into the hobby in the mid-1990s and blown away by Lionel Railsounds.  Lionel advertised for a long time that they always try to go to great lengths to get the correct sounds for an engine.  I just want Lionel, whenever possible, to continue to do that.  Again, I know it's not easy.    

I must say that you have me very interested in the upcoming 5 whistle/horn option in the new locos.  I think I'm going to have to pull the trigger on the new Legacy Reading T-1 (I was on the fence as I already have one from the first release!) 

Thank you again, Dave, for your post and for your working on delivering Lionel products to us.  I wish you all the best. 

Rob  

Does anyone know if this loco has the 3 speaker system (2 tender/1 boiler) or just the 2 in the tender.  I just received my B&O version and the one at the LHS sounded like it only had the 2 speakers in the tender.  Really curious before I open it considering the literature advertises the 3 speaker system like in the Challengers. 

Being able to select from 5 different horns/whistles sounds is interesting - thanks, Dave.

If you all only knew what else is out there in the DCC World. O scale TCS WowSound decoders come with 50+ whistles and 10+different bells and different chuff sets. 😂

IMO.It could have a hundred whistles, but if it doesn't have the one that the prototype actually wore....whats the point?

@RickO posted:

IMO.It could have a hundred whistles, but if it doesn't have the one that the prototype actually wore....whats the point?

Lionel sound guys- “Close enough” 

@StaMic006 posted:

Does anyone know if this loco has the 3 speaker system (2 tender/1 boiler) or just the 2 in the tender.  I just received my B&O version and the one at the LHS sounded like it only had the 2 speakers in the tender.  Really curious before I open it considering the literature advertises the 3 speaker system like in the Challengers. 

This engine does not have the 3 speaker sound system. It has dual speakers in the tender. The catalog does not advertise the 3 speaker system for the EM-1. Wish it did have that extra speaker in the boiler!

@Dj'sOgaugetrains posted:

This engine does not have the 3 speaker sound system. It has dual speakers in the tender. The catalog does not advertise the 3 speaker system for the EM-1. Wish it did have that extra speaker in the boiler!

According to their website it does have the 3 speaker setup....

http://www.lionel.com/products...1-7600-blue-2031100/

@StaMic006 posted:

 

According to their website it does have the 3 speaker setup....

http://www.lionel.com/products...1-7600-blue-2031100/

Oh wow... that’s from the websight... look in the 2019 V2 catalog... it just says dual speakers. Lionel needs to double check that stuff. I have one of the EM1’s. There’s no speaker in the boiler. 

@Dj'sOgaugetrains posted:

Oh wow... that’s from the websight... look in the 2019 V2 catalog... it just says dual speakers. Lionel needs to double check that stuff. I have one of the EM1’s. There’s no speaker in the boiler. 

10-4. I wish it did have 3.  My Challenger sounds really good.  I also picked up the First Run BB and I’m pretty sure it has 3 speakers.  I’ve yet to unbox either of them. 

Does anyone know if the same whistle is used on all of the new Legacy EM-1s?  I see on Trainworld there are 6.

@Dj'sOgaugetrains posted:

Oh wow... that’s from the websight... look in the 2019 V2 catalog... it just says dual speakers. Lionel needs to double check that stuff. I have one of the EM1’s. There’s no speaker in the boiler. 

DJ, what is the model number of the EM 1 that you have?

@RickM46 posted:

DJ, what is the model number of the EM 1 that you have?

I have the black one #7609   2031090

they used different whistles on some of the other versions. I heard the DM&IR em1, it has the whistle used in the legacy Allegheny a few years ago. 

“Dual speakers” means there are two speakers in the tender “stereo sounds” is when they also have the speaker in the boiler as well as the tender. As far as I know the only steam locomotives to have this are the VL Challengers, VL big boy, VL Niagara, and the new big boys. 

@StaMic006 posted:

 

According to their website it does have the 3 speaker setup....

http://www.lionel.com/products...1-7600-blue-2031100/

Got taken in by that with a new B unit. We ordered it based on the Lionel web site which says Legacy Railsounds as a feature. Sadly when it arrived there is no sound system. 

To me it doesn't sound that bad...perhaps better in person?

If I recall right, the EM-1 is one of the few models Lionel has made that MTH has not made in their Premier Line. I think this is the 2nd or 3rd release? What whistle did the former versions have? I would think the audio engineers would've referenced the previous files for this engine.

                 EM-1 Whistle. If only it could fit on that Lionel steam dome. 🤭

@BobbyD posted:

Got taken in by that with a new B unit. We ordered it based on the Lionel web site which says Legacy Railsounds as a feature. Sadly when it arrived there is no sound system. 

"Superbass B Unit" Yes, "nonpowered B unit", no.

@Dj'sOgaugetrains posted:

I have the black one #7609   2031090

they used different whistles on some of the other versions. I heard the DM&IR em1, it has the whistle used in the legacy Allegheny a few years ago. 

Thanks DJ, I noticed in the proto type pictures at the dealer websites that the drive rods on all EM-1s are black; however, in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDTqcidXUIQ, they are silver; what are yours?

@RickM46 posted:

Thanks DJ, I noticed in the proto type pictures at the dealer websites that the drive rods on all EM-1s are black; however, in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDTqcidXUIQ, they are silver; what are yours?

The prototype B&O EM-1 locomotives were NOT painted blue, either!

@Bruk posted:

If you all only knew what else is out there in the DCC World. O scale TCS WowSound decoders come with 50+ whistles and 10+different bells and different chuff sets. 😂

Well, exactly. I became involved with O3R as a break from DCC On30 and sound systems like the Tsunami are streets ahead of what I’m seeing here. My upgraded MMI K27 and K36 2-8-2s have sound suites from the actual locos, for example. So does my BIL C-16 2-8-0, and that was made as a RTR loco with DCC and DC control options, in the early 90s. 

None of my O3R locos cost me more than $350 all in, including the upgraded K4s, and for that money I can live with the more-or-less generic sounds (although the K4s has a K4s option, so its not generic). But for $1000 plus? Sorry, but I’d be expecting the right sounds, for that outlay. 

@Hot Water posted:

 

The pictures of the proto type blue EM-1 at the website look like they are a dark blue - not bad; however, in the TW video, much lighter.

Guys I have a solution to the sound problem, DON'T BUY IT OR TAKE DELIVERY. . They will never learn if you keep buying them. Until you push back they will keep doing the same thing.

Dave

@Rockershovel posted:

Well, exactly. I became involved with O3R as a break from DCC On30 and sound systems like the Tsunami are streets ahead of what I’m seeing here. My upgraded MMI K27 and K36 2-8-2s have sound suites from the actual locos, for example. So does my BIL C-16 2-8-0, and that was made as a RTR loco with DCC and DC control options, in the early 90s. 

None of my O3R locos cost me more than $350 all in, including the upgraded K4s, and for that money I can live with the more-or-less generic sounds (although the K4s has a K4s option, so its not generic). But for $1000 plus? Sorry, but I’d be expecting the right sounds, for that outlay. 

With DCC (or DCS, using the ADPCM software) you can change whistles, bells, or whatever in a sound file to make them more accurate. Lionel doesn't offer that ability. I wish they would, but you are stuck with whatever sound they put in at the factory. DCC (and DCS to an extent) do not suffer from that issue. With Legacy there is no way for the end user to program or change sound files. 

@RickM46 posted:

The pictures of the proto type blue EM-1 at the website look like they are a dark blue - not bad; however, in the TW video, much lighter.

Whatever floats your boat, except NONE of the real B&O EM-1 steam locomotives were EVER painted anything but black, i.e. NEVER "blue"!

@RickO posted:

"Superbass B Unit" Yes, "nonpowered B unit", no.

"Powered B Unit" says "Yes" for Railsounds. Yet it has none.

Bravo Dave1 for speaking up. 

With today's hard times, what with Corona having put so many people out of work itself, $$$ must now be spent to essentials and not models that don't perform properly when unpacked and put on the track.  Ditto with whistles and horns that sound like they've been blown by an unemployed clown who used to perform in the once upon a time Ringling Brothers, Barnum & Bailey circus.

Any company that is only out to sell it's once respected name and doesn't manufacture high quality products should be ashamed of itself.  Admitting that a product is inferior and already expects to take on a pile of email complaints is a pretty weak excuse in my opinion.

I prefer to save my $$$ for a rainy day.  This way I won't get washed up by having paid for a product was not only a gross disappointment but got a dangerous rise in my blood pressure.  It's time to demand that products be Made in the U.S.A. instead of some overseas sweatshop that carry prices only a prince can afford.  Corona alone has made paupers out of many model railroaders who now can only afford to sit in their EZ chairs and dream about the trains that are still on their wish list.

RIP RBB&B, another American institution that fell on hard times caused in part by irrate animal freaks who demanded that elephants be removed from the Greatest Show on Earth.  It is a well known fact that RBB&B took the best care possible of their elephants, perhaps much better than even some other institutions.  Just look at the thousands in number of this magnificent creature that have, and continue to be, killed in Africa for their ivory alone.  Rest assured, this never happened with any RBB&B elephant. 

The Greatest Show on Earth is dead; Long live the Greatest Show on Earth.  It still can happen in O gauge (and all other scales too for that matter) with a circus train.  Come one, come all, and grab a bag of peanuts or popcorn, and cotton candy on a stick, and have a ice cold Coke (Reg.U.S.Pat.Off.) because the show is about to begin!

Godspeed everyone.  Please Pray for Peace.

@Dj'sOgaugetrains posted:

I have the black one #7609   2031090

they used different whistles on some of the other versions. I heard the DM&IR em1, it has the whistle used in the legacy Allegheny a few years ago. 

DJ, just a couple of questions: Are the drive rods on yours blackened?; any issues with it?  Thanks, RickM46

@Rob N posted:

 

I must say that you have me very interested in the upcoming 5 whistle/horn option in the new locos.  

Incidentally, LionChief Plus steam engines have a control which allows the operator to vary their whistle pitches. Pretty cool feature.

I'm way late to this thread, but IMHO in this day in age of digital sound technology there isn't much excuse for getting the whistle sound wrong on some of these expensive models.  You can make great recordings of stuff with very cheap equipment and there is a PLETHORA of free opensource software you can use to edit the sounds to your exact liking to sound good on a 2" or 3" speaker.  Back in 2000 or even 2010 you could argue, getting the fidelity with a given whistle correct would have been tougher.  But today, memory is cheap, and high SNR DACs are ubiquitous.  I'm not entirely sure why Lionel (or anyone else for that matter) is still rolling their own electronics.  Just write some software and stick it on an Arduino or something.  The only thing required outside of that would be the amplifier and power circuits which let's face it is a solved problem.  Sure, I know, no problem is as easy as the one you envision someone else solving.  So... 

I've been involved in professional audio in one form or another for over 15 years.  I will offer to fly out to one of these whistle sound-off events that @Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 linked to a video of, bring my recording equipment, edit the files, and give them to any manufacturer who wants them for inclusion in their models, on my dime.  I've done this NUMEROUS times on my MTH engines to replace them with slightly different sounding whistles by using the exact same videos that people have linked to on YouTube.  Obviously I can't redistribute or sell that work since it's based on copyrighted material, but I can tell you - it's not that difficult.  Once a recording is made, I can finish one and have it loaded on an MTH engine inside of a day.  It wouldn't even be a stretch to vary the pitch, echo, and reverb slightly for each different road number offered.  However, I'm only going to do it if they sign on to actually use the work properly in their models.  

You do this once or twice (to get a wide enough variety of whistles), make the recordings at a high level of sound quality, and digitize them at CD or better quality, and we're done.  Forever.  I'd look at it as a historical preservation effort.  We could even donate the sounds to the Library of Congress for preservation.  I'm fairly certain we could find folks that are model train enthusiasts that are also whistle collectors.  And if not, find some folks that are willing to just let them be recorded.  Ninety percent of the fun in owning those whistles would be hooking 'em up and let 'er rip!

Hopefully someone from Lionel, @Dave Olson, etc. is reading.

Edit: removed "@LIONEL" since that isn't actually the account for Lionel.  Oops.

@RickM46 posted:

Thanks DJ, I noticed in the proto type pictures at the dealer websites that the drive rods on all EM-1s are black; however, in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDTqcidXUIQ, they are silver; what are yours?

Eight chuffs per rev seems to be working on that model.  What am I missing?

@RickO posted:

Well there you have it. Lionel says its correct, so its correct.......LOL.

 

Which of the MTH J1 whistles is more correct?

PS2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...re=youtu.be&t=17

PS3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...e=youtu.be&t=147

I'm not an expert on all whistles, but several of my Pennsy steam have one of these two and it's my understanding the first is the PRR "banshee" and the second is the classic PRR "3 chime".

@rplst8 posted:

Which of the MTH J1 whistles is more correct?

PS2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...re=youtu.be&t=17

PS3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...e=youtu.be&t=147

I'm not an expert on all whistles, but several of my Pennsy steam have one of these two and it's my understanding the first is the PRR "banshee" and the second is the classic PRR "3 chime".

The first video is definitely NOT the classic PRR "banshee"! It actually sounds pretty correct for a PRR J1, or a T1, or an M1, or a K4s.

The second video sort of sounds a lot like the first video, but at an ever-so-slightly different "tone" or volume.