New Legacy M1 stalls on switches

What's the actual product number?

Let's see a picture of the rollers on the locomotive?  Did you check continuity between all the rollers on the locomotive to see if they all are connected?  It should have three rollers, and that should get it through most switches without issue.

There are numerous threads on this issue.  Check to see if a wheel is out of gauge.  Most times the engine stops on the diverging route.

The product number is #2431400. I will have to tke o photo of the pickup rollers when I get home.

How do I check the continuity between all the rollers?

@rscott posted:

How do I check the continuity between all the rollers?

With an ohmmeter.  Just check from one roller to each of the others.  You should have continuity between them all.

@gunrunnerjohn

John, wasn't it one of the other newer engines that there was two pickups, and that they were closer than some prior offerings? I don't remember what the engine was, but I believe someone had commented about that.

That aside, has there been problems with Fastrak switches before?

I've seen newer stuff with only two rollers, it's a mystery why they still do that.  For problem steamers, I add a one-wire tether and share the tender rollers.  I've had to do that with stuff like Atlantic's, etc.  I also have done that with many steamers that have a tether.  Since power is already going back to the tender, so it's just adding a roller an like magic, instant reliability!

If the locomotive has 2 pickup rollers, given where it stops in the first video, I'd say the rear roller is not working.  You can check this on a piece of straight track.  Put a piece of masking tape (an inch or so) on the center rail.  Run the locomotive slowly.  If it stops when the front roller hits the tape, the rear roller is not working.  Run it in reverse to verify that it only stops when the front roller is on the tape.

@Bob posted:

If the locomotive has 2 pickup rollers, given where it stops in the first video, I'd say the rear roller is not working.  You can check this on a piece of straight track.  Put a piece of masking tape (an inch or so) on the center rail.  Run the locomotive slowly.  If it stops when the front roller hits the tape, the rear roller is not working.  Run it in reverse to verify that it only stops when the front roller is on the tape.

Even most cheap DVM’s have a beeper continuity test feature,……😁

Pat

Mine has the same issue. Haven’t had time to dig into it yet though. Even through Ross #4 switches mine was stalling out. Sounds cut out randomly also

I created a fix for the sounds cutting out since the tender does only have two rollers.

New Legacy Steam Locomotive Sound Issue and Fix

I have the older TMCC M1a, it only has two rollers,  However, it has no issue on any of my switches from #6 and smaller, including several curved switches.

Here is the bottom of the engine

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I have the older TMCC M1a, it only has two rollers,  However, it has no issue on any of my switches from #6 and smaller, including several curved switches.

Agreed. I have both the legacy and tmcc M1a and the legacy M1b. No issues with any of them. I’m suspecting connection(s) at least in mine

Yep, first thing I'd do is check the rollers...

@WALMART TOM posted:

There are numerous threads on this issue.  Check to see if a wheel is out of gauge.  Most times the engine stops on the diverging route.

I remember reading of issues with the L1 Mikado and Decapods, which were modified from MTH Premier designs.  I wasn't aware that stalling on switches was a common problem with the M1 (which I believe was an original Lionel design.)  Let's please clarify this for the benefit of those considering a purchase.

Don’t forget your ground plane fellas, ….if those center drivers are hung off the rails, they ain’t doing a thing, ….that means only the very most forward set of drivers is supplying ground…I see no axle wipers on the trailing truck……..don’t be so quick to condemn center rollers,….

Pat

I changed a pair of traction tires on a Lionel Consolidation. Engine now wouldn’t always navigate an older Ross 3 way. Replaced the thick Lionel tires with some thinner MTH’s and it’s been fine since.

@Dave_C posted:

I changed a pair of traction tires on a Lionel Consolidation. Engine now wouldn’t always navigate an older Ross 3 way. Replaced the thick Lionel tires with some thinner MTH’s and it’s been fine since.

And on another point on that reply Dave, if these new M1’s are equipped with Lionel’s now infamous mud tires, to be sure the center drivers ( some if not all ) are hung off the rails,……a simple tire change might get the ground ….grounding ….😁

Pat

A couple of my I1s had this same issue I checked to see if the rollers were picking up and some were not, I tightened the screw for the rollers (which was pretty lose) and they worked fine after that.

hmm, very interesting.

Yep, I've been using MTH tires one most of my stuff for years, the fat Lionel tires many times were actually dragging on the fake brake shoes and causing all sorts of problems.

Oh man. I have a Legacy diesel. Must be an early model, where even with MTH tires the brake shoes are too close and rub on turns. I haven't tried to deal with it after having given up quite a while ago. Glad to hear I'm not the only one that struggled with that.

GRJ, when are you going to write a book? It would be the ultimate resource for everything O gauge technical. I'll give you a $100 advance!

Have you by any chance placed it on one of those inside loops and run it slowly over those switches?   Just trying to eliminate a switch/track issue.

So it could be the pickup, could be the traction tire lifting the engine just enough when crossing the switch to lose the ground, and what else?

I know it has been discussed a couple of times for the track and pickup, I didn't think the traction tires would play into this until the episode with the Mogul popping wheelies over switches so it stays on its original course.

@I1sa posted:

A couple of my I1s had this same issue I checked to see if the rollers were picking up and some were not, I tightened the screw for the rollers (which was pretty lose) and they worked fine after that.

They’d have to been violently loose,…..I have not seen this issue with the I1’s or the L1’s …..

Pat

@Scott J posted:

GRJ, when are you going to write a book? It would be the ultimate resource for everything O gauge technical. I'll give you a $100 advance!

I've been asked a few times about that.   I did so much technical writing when I was in avionics design that I got pretty sick of technical documentation!  We used to joke that the job wasn't done until the paperwork weighed more than the airplane!  I swear we got pretty close, and I was doing a lot of stuff for commercial airline jets!

@harmonyards posted:

They’d have to been violently loose,…..I have not seen this issue with the I1’s or the L1’s …..

Pat

No was not “violently” lose….just lose enough that it was not picking up for some reason, as for you not hearing about it before, I guess there is a first time for everything!

@I1sa posted:

A couple of my I1s had this same issue I checked to see if the rollers were picking up and some were not, I tightened the screw for the rollers (which was pretty lose) and they worked fine after that.

Same here. Mine were loose on the tender causing sound drop outs.

I checked the rollers with the making tape on the center rail. No power drop off forward or reverse.  I checked the rollers and made sure they did not need to be tightened.  I cleaned the switch really well, and that seemed to help, but was still stalling at low speeds. It is doing it on half of my switches on my layout.  I am going to call Lionel and see if they have any suggestions. Or would take it back for a check.  

I had an engine that stalled continuously on only one switch. The final solution was pretty simple after an evening of studying it. Pretty non evasive.  One flexible small wire with a ring lug at each end for a screw.  Find a screw on both the engine chassis and tender chassis that have continuity to the wheels. The axle wiper if it has one works well. You now have multiple wheels contacting the rails. If it works. You can now focus on why the wheels on the engine aren’t providing a proper ground path. Or in my case make it a permanent solution. If the engine resides  on the layout all the time. It’s not a big issue.

Years ago. I connected rollers on some engines together to the tenders rollers with a tether. The newer stuff with 3 rollers has pretty much cured that issue. You seemed to have done enough testing and it happens on multiple turnouts.

The first thing I do with pickup rollers is to check continuity from one to the other. Then I put a drop of Bachmann EZ Lube on the rollers and the swing arm pivots. If that doesn't help then I start chasing the ground path. Lionel used to put nice jumpers on the pilot and trailing trucks on their steam. This was a nice feature especially on the IR tether engines.

I had bad floppy, twisty rollers on my L1s. So bad I ended up 3D printing my own mounts to keep them from turning about the vertical axis. The roller arms were very soft metal and would twist about the longitudinal axis too. It might be good to inspect the alignment of your rollers. My L1s got so out of whack the rollers were riding the side of the center rail at times.

On my I1s, I had a bad ground on one the tenders causing the sounds and lights to sputter and konk out. I had to clean the ground lugs up and remove some of the paint from the ground lug location. The telltale was sparking at the drawbar.

Idk what's going on with Lionel anymore but I wish they'd test their engines a little better.

@rscott posted:

I checked the rollers with the making tape on the center rail. No power drop off forward or reverse.  I checked the rollers and made sure they did not need to be tightened.  I cleaned the switch really well, and that seemed to help, but was still stalling at low speeds. It is doing it on half of my switches on my layout.  I am going to call Lionel and see if they have any suggestions. Or would take it back for a check.  

My money says they’ll tell you it ran just fine on their test layout, and no action required! …….If you have an alligator jumper, 1st, stall the locomotive in the switch like it’s doing, leave your track powered up, connect your alligator clip lead to the OUTSIDE RAIL, somewhere on a section of track you know is good, and touch it to a driver, ….see if the engine powers back up. If it does, then it’s a ground plane issue, …you can even determine if it’s a track problem by touching your outside rail jumper to the outside rail right where the engine stalled, …if that makes the engine power back up, it’s a track problem,….before you go and say “all my other engines are just fine” each engine has it’s own set of quirks,…DO NOT touch the jumper to anything center rail related…..bad things will happen!..

Pat

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I've been asked a few times about that.   I did so much technical writing when I was in avionics design that I got pretty sick of technical documentation!  We used to joke that the job wasn't done until the paperwork weighed more than the airplane!  I swear we got pretty close, and I was doing a lot of stuff for commercial airline jets!

"the job wasn't done until he paperwork weighed more than the airplane". Ha! That's a great quote and I am going to shamelessly steal it!

  I would think every wheel is machined pretty close as far as diameter. You can see in the picture how the thick, as Pat refers to as mud tires could effect wheel contact further forward.  They make the wheel gain size causing to sit sort of downhill. The front axle with the flanges is doing most of the work as far as ground contact. If it hits a dead spot outside rail wise. That could cause the stutter at slow speed. Most Lionel steamers have axle wipers on the pilot and trailing truck these days. I’d give those a look.

@Dave_C posted:

  I would think every wheel is machined pretty close as far as diameter. You can see in the picture how the thick, as Pat refers to as mud tires could affecwheel contact further forward.  They make the wheel gain size causing to sit sort of downhill. The front axle with the flanges is doing most of the work as far as ground contact. If it hits a dead spot outside rail wise. That could cause the stutter at slow speed. Most Lionel steamers have axle wipers on the pilot and trailing truck these days. I’d give those a look.

In the picture R.Scott took, I don’t see nare a wiper in sight Dave, that’s what leads me down the path of ground planes…..( sitting in my easy chair of course ) but if she’s hopped up in the back, and the track work isn’t exactly 100% true flat, ( not looks flat ) then there’s a good possibility like you mentored, the front drivers are doing all the outside rail work ….beings it’s got more rollers than a skating rink, I’d think center rail drop out might not be the issue, unless there’s some odd anomaly where all those locomotive rollers just so happen to be on dead spots at the same time……If those trailing truck wheels are snapped into plastic bearings, they’re useless, and the pilot truck floats to much to gaurantee good ground…..a lot of my MTH Hudsons were p** poor grounders, ….adding a ground wire from the pilot truck to the frame solved the issue running over Atlas switches,…….anyways, I’d be surprised if he’s got a center roller issue …..my money is on ground, or the lack there of!!…😉

Pat

@rscott posted:

I see 3 dips in the trackwork as the engine approaches the turnout. The last one is right before it gets on the turnout rails.

The engine comes to a stop when the last set of drivers has entered the turnout rail.

It wouldn't be a bad idea to see if you could smooth this out a bit. Either by shinming the lower areas or snugging down the higher areas " gently" with a track screw.

It's hard to tell from the video. Is the short " block section " piece still in place on the turnout?

If so, is the jumper wire still attached?  Also , I had an instance with one of these block section pieces where the center rail tab wasn't making a good connection

The weight of the engine would flex the track just enough to break the contact. I bent the center rail tab over a bit and problem solved. That m1 tender is quite heavy, between the weight and the track dips . The same thing could be occurring.

Lastly, do you have power feeders on either side of the turnout? Or does power get between those two o72 turnouts only through the rails?