New Lionel Legacy 10 Wheeler Shorting issue (Fixed)

Normally, the plastic plate underneath the rollers serves two purposes.  It insulates the collector assembly and it also has a nib to lock it into place on the chassis.  I wonder if the plastic plate is broken and you did not realize it.  I would check with Lionel.  They should be willing to send you those parts for free to repair it correctly without the hot glue.  The hot glue was a nice improvised fix.  I recently bought the the 0-6-0 saddle tank engine and its ties rods were mis-cut at the factory.  Lionel send me tie rods so I could repair the engine myself.

I agree with Joe, and I wouldn't think hot glue will stand the test of time.   I see Lionel customer service hasn't changed since you were on hold for twenty minutes.  I'm betting the parts list for these engines are not up on the Lionel website?

My new 225 "Blue" Ten Wheeler had the same problem.

I used epoxy to glue the plastic plate to the chassis and it is holding well.

No parts yet for these engines on Lionel's site.

Dave

It likely uses the same parts as the previous Ten Wheelers. Lionel has made them three times in the past and the parts are readily available. If the screw that holds the pickup rollers is too long you will have the same symptoms as it can’t be fully tightened.

Pete

@superwarp1 posted:

I agree with Joe, and I wouldn't think hot glue will stand the test of time.   I see Lionel customer service hasn't changed since you were on hold for twenty minutes.  I'm betting the parts list for these engines are not up on the Lionel website?

Customer service unchanged as well as quality control.

The screw is okay Pete....but the plastic insulator and the chassis are both too smooth.  The screw alone cannot prevent the movement of the rollers.

As well....there is a small piece of plastic used under the board to prevent it from touching the top of the motor and causing a short which would probably take out the board.  That thin piece of plastic in my opinion was not substantial enough ....I doubled it.

Dave 

Dave, this is a typical setup. The insulators can be slightly different depending on the roller assembly but the insulators should lock in place plus be molded to keep the barrel nut from rotating. Both screws use the same nut and if one is too long they will touch and prevent one or both from being fully tightened.

Pete

Understood Pete.

But this time around on this new Ten Wheeler (at least mine) there are not the usual "nibs" to prevent rotation of the roller.

So the double engine roller in question has nothing to hold it to the chassis but the one small screw.  The screw sits at the one end of the double roller with nothing to prevent pivot at the other end.   The smooth surfaces and one screw cannot prevent this large double roller from moving side to side.

Dave

Sounds like parts being changed out for the worse like the missing Mogul bushings or the oversize siderod holes in the Docksiders. That said most don’t have this issue with the ten wheelers.

Pete

Yeah I found that there was just a lot of leverage that could be applied to the double roller and the little nibs just weren't holding it. We use O34 curves so it is a bit tight I imagine.

So far hot glue has held well even when the boys high ball it over some older Marx turnouts. I used some high temp hot glue that they use to pull dents out of doors with.

Hopefully this helps.

Thank You for your assistance on this issue Pete.

I did not at first have this roller issue.  I was into the smoke unit for adjustments (that is another story) and must have nudged the main engine double roller and when I set it on the track the short occurred.  The screw must have just loosened enough to allow rotation of the roller.  At least it is a home fix !

I was also going to purchase the Docksider and passed when I saw all the issues being reported.  And the Mogul...well I passed on that one too.

I've reached the point where I wait and see if there are serious issues with a new Lionel engine as reported by others before I purchase.  Just too many issues now with Lionel.   Pretty sad...but I now feel lucky if I can fix the problems with a new Lionel engine myself at home.

I truly like all the new features Lionel has been coming out with but would sure like to have the confident feeling of product satisfaction out of the box I use to have in the past.

Dave

Just curious - was this a problem with any of the previous releases? If not, I wonder what changed.

I have long since sold my original CP early Legacy 10 wheeler and I did not have this issue with that engine.

Dave

Never saw this with my C&O 10-Wheeler, it was the early Legacy model.  FWIW, I also don't have the issue with two brand new ones either, the Strasburg one that Nicholas Smith made a special run for, and the METCA PRR special order one.  I checked the rollers and they're secure.

Maybe a dumb suggestion because I'm having a hard time visualizing the problem.  But couldn't you insert a thin "star" washer, or split lock washer between the plastic insulator and the chassis?  Maybe the "teeth" would dig in and stop the thing from rotating.

Yes it's a shame that you have to come up with fixes like this on your own.  And Yes, Lionel does sometimes make wholesale changes to what looks like the same product.  The Legacy E6 (Pennsy-style) 4-4-2s have been made at least three times.  The first one, Santa Fe 6-11117 , had captive axles.  The next batch like my 6-11232 B&O had removable axles and a "bottom plate."  Bravo!  Then, based on Forum members' photos of the latest 6-84942, it LOOKS like Lionel went back to a one-piece chassis.  I don't believe the exploded parts photo posted on the support website is correct for the latest release!  Since the production runs are done by possibly different contractors in China, it's like a box of chocolates.  Until Alex, Pete, or GRJ takes one apart, you never know what you're gonna get!

I'm with Soo Line, not pre-ordering ANYTHING.  I'll take my chances and pay a premium to a greedy hoarder or collector, only AFTER the Forum gives the loco it's blessing

It is listed as the same part from the Vision Hudson, The star indent is supposed to fit over a small hex nut and the screw holding the assembly to the frame. I don't know if mine just lost some of its hold ability or what. Also that extra little nubby bit was not there. I put the hot glue around the outside of the star indent and it seems to work well.

This was the part that was the issue on mine.

Link to the support/parts page for it.
https://www.lionelsupport.com/...51-8eff-bfde80cbab56

I have a Lionel Legacy Ten-Wheeler from a previous release and two new versions from the 2021 release. The double-roller pickup assembly and lower insulator are the same on all three engines. They were loose on one of the new engines but securely in place on the other two. I removed the loose double-roller and revised the lower plastic insulator without gluing anything to the engine. I think that my modified insulator is better than Lionel’s design because the double-roller is secure, cannot rotate, and cannot cause a short circuit by contacting the chassis.

First, I glued two 0.040-inch-thick white styrene strips to the sides of the insulator using two-part epoxy. The strips are sized so that the modified insulator fits snugly between the two sides of the chassis (photo 1).

Second, I cut a piece of 0.015-inch-thick clear styrene and glued it to the upper surface of the insulator. This strengthens the modified insulator and adds thickness such that the assembly becomes tight when screwed into the hexagonal coupling at the bottom of the chassis (photo 2).

Photo 3 shows the modified insulator in position between the sides of the chassis. The added styrene pieces prevent rotation of the insulator and the double-roller assembly, and eliminate the possibility of a short circuit.

Photo 4 shows the double-roller assembly screwed to the bottom of the chassis and located securely. The entire assembly remains easily removable and nothing has been glued to the chassis.

I think this problem might have been remedied by removing the engine shell and adjusting the components inside the shell at the top of the collector, but I wanted to avoid removal of the shell on a new engine. In my opinion, this problem is due to sloppy assembly and inadequate inspection by the manufacturer.

MELGAR