I hear you Pat... but, right now I have a train that runs ...I did not before. The spiders that are on there now are pressure (interference) fitted PETG. I can open up the bore a tiny bit more and use an adhesive anywhere from CA to something like the Locktite Max construction adhesive which would fill the spline. If I can keep it running until steel spiders are available... then, I'm good.
@Dennis-LaRock posted:I hear you Pat... but, right now I have a train that runs ...I did not before. The spiders that are on there now are pressure (interference) fitted PETG. I can open up the bore a tiny bit more and use an adhesive anywhere from CA to something like the Locktite Max construction adhesive which would fill the spline. If I can keep it running until steel spiders are available... then, I'm good.
Totally agree Dennis, …..I wouldn’t alter your file, I’d like to see how the longevity holds up, ….plus, I’m curious how much of a press fit your spider is??…..do you have to beat it on at present? Or simple push on?….that’s going to be the decisive factor in making these out of metal. I’ve had several parts printed in metal, and the material is very hard indeed. Very difficult to bore,…..Ideally, a fit with a couple love taps, and some loctite shaft retainer would be ideal, as this would be an at home DIY repair similar to what y’all have done now,……my son has one of these engines with a split spider, so when y’all decide what file to try, I’ll get a test run,…..naturally, the metal parts are going to be more expensive than plastic, but I’m hoping for the permanent fix ……heck, I might need to look into a 3D metal printer
Pat
Pat, I'm just guessing here... but, I lined it up with my fingers and gave it maybe around 2 pounds of pressure with the thumb to get it started. I then, used the but of the pin-vise to press it on, again with somewhere around 2 pounds to set it even with the bottom of the shaft. It was not a struggle it get it on. Not very scientific... but, it worked.
I wound up using a 2.28mm bore and cleaned the bore up with a 2.28mm (thank you Rod) pin-vise. I have an FDM printer so you will not get the pretty dimensional accuracy (detail) Rod can achieve with the Resin printer. However, its true, it fits and it works. I can send you some Spiders and the .stl files. If you need adjustments in the measurements that can be done in all of 30 seconds... and I could get you the new file pronto. If you are not using a resin printer it can be a little maddening trying to print these itsy bitsy spiders on an FDM printer.
Guys I have a bit of an update to throw into the mix. Today I pulled both trucks on the F3 and found the rear spider was split. It pried off very easily and the shaft splines showed evidence that the spider has been spinning. So I cleaned off the residue and slipped in a new spider and off she goes. The fit on the shaft is an easy press on type of thing. I used my thumb to get it aligned and started, then the round handle end of a screw driver to seat it flush to the end of the shaft. Easy push on, not near 2 pounds IMO.
To be honest I am not surprised about the split spider. Cured resin tends to be brittle and I guessed it would have very little resistance to being stretched. I am looking forward to getting some of your spiders to play around with Dennis, just to see if they have any better longevity. One thing you said caught my eye, the 2.8mm ream out size. My reaming has been done with a 2.3mm bit, half a mm smaller in size than your 2.8mm. A 2.8mm hole would just fall off the shaft in my F3. What am I missing? Are later shafts maybe bigger diameter?? 
(Dennis has since edited the erroneous 2.8 to 2.28, all good now!)
@Dennis-LaRock posted:Pat, I'm just guessing here... but, I lined it up with my fingers and gave it maybe around 2 pounds of pressure with the thumb to get it started. I then, used the but of the pin-vise to press it on, again with somewhere around 2 pounds to set it even with the bottom of the shaft. It was not a struggle it get it on. Not very scientific... but, it worked.
I wound up using a 2.8mm bore and cleaned the bore up with a 2.8mm pin-vise. I have an FDM printer so you will not get the pretty dimensional accuracy (detail) Rod can achieve with the Resin printer. However, its true, it fits and it works. I can send you some Spiders and the .stl files. If you need adjustments in the measurements that can be done in all of 30 seconds... and I could get you the new file pronto. If you are not using a resin printer it can be a little maddening trying to print these itsy bitsy spiders on an FDM printer.
Good idea, ….let’s do that, and I’ll do some more research based on you & Rod’s hard work, and get a few printed in metal for analysis work,….
Pat
Rod... good catch ...I left out a 2. I Bored and Reamed at 2.28mm. Old men have to cover each others backs/butts! I will correct the post above!
I'm headed up stairs to print out a fresh pile of PETG Spiders in Space Gray w/2.28 Bore. I will get you guys copies of the .stls with Bores from 2.28mm-2.3mm in .01 increments. Pat, if your measurements differ... just let me know and I'll get you a fresh .stl in a nono-second. Also, if you need settings for printing with an FDM printer... let me know.
The Nylon & Delrin were a bit trickier to print but I did get them both to adhere to the build plate and was able to print the Spiders. Slipperiness and installed shaft adhesion issues aside... the Nylon was too soft and the Delrin is the stiffest/hardest material I have printed with.
Dennis I should have picked up on the missing 2 in the 2.28mm right away. Duh. No worries. So with nylon being quite soft and delrin quite hard, maybe your original PETG is the best compromise?
For the metal option I think Pat will want to know what ID to have them made in, rather than take a guess at it. I suggest let’s try 2.28 ID with the idea that it can always be reamed out to as much as 2.3 in order to get a nice tap-on fit if required. What do we think?
For material it seems like steel would be too hard. I would think brass is a nice compromise between machinability and toughness. It’s not like these things are highly stressed at all. As Pat said all plastics tend to shrink and get hard over time, and when they split they are done. Brass will make that a non-issue. But I am OK with whatever you guys want to do. 
Rod
@Rod Stewart posted:For material it seems like steel would be too hard. I would think brass is a nice compromise between machinability and toughness. It’s not like these things are highly stressed at all. As Pat said all plastics tend to shrink and get hard over time, and when they split they are done. Brass will make that a non-issue. But I am OK with whatever you guys want to do.
The metal you print isn't going to be as hard as steel I suspect.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:The metal you print isn't going to be as hard as steel I suspect.
I sure hope not!
Hardness is not an issue if you increase the hole size. With metals you can use retaining compounds that don’t require an interference fit.
Pete
@Rod Stewart posted:maybe your original PTEG is the best compromise?
Rod
If you pick up a plastic drink container/bottle it is more likely than not... made of PETG.
@Norton posted:Hardness is not an issue if you increase the hole size. With metals you can use retaining compounds that don’t require an interference fit.
Pete
Yep, …thank you ….that’s the point I was trying to make,….with a metal spider, hopefully we can get it to where just a couple lite taps with a hammer seat it with 640. Then after 24 hours, it’s concrete …..that’s the point I was trying to make ….
Pat
UPDATE: Well it had to happen. I have been running with my original printed resin spiders since putting them in back about May. Today I was pulling 7 cars up the steeper grade on the layout, which also has some tight turns, and suddenly POOF; she stopped moving though the motors were still whirring. I popped off the trucks and sure enough both had been slipping though neither appeared to be split.
Because these trucks are so easy to R & R it took only about 5 minutes to slip on a pair of Dennis PETG spiders and we are good to go again. I am hoping these last better but time will tell. Dennis how are yours holding up? The shiny gray spiders are PETG, right?
Pat, any progress on metal fabrication at all? I realize that because its summer most of us are not doing much train stuff, but just wondering. Also i think I read on this forum that Shapeways have shut down. Is that correct?
Rod
@Rod Stewart posted:UPDATE: Well it had to happen. I have been running with my original printed resin spiders since putting them in back about May. Today I was pulling 7 cars up the steeper grade on the layout, which also has some tight turns, and suddenly POOF; she stopped moving though the motors were still whirring. I popped off the trucks and sure enough both had been slipping though neither appeared to be split.
Because these trucks are so easy to R & R it took only about 5 minutes to slip on a pair of Dennis PETG spiders and we are good to go again. I am hoping these last better but time will tell. Dennis how are yours holding up? The shiny gray spiders are PETG, right?
Pat, any progress on metal fabrication at all? I realize that because its summer most of us are not doing much train stuff, but just wondering. Also i think I read on this forum that Shapeways have shut down. Is that correct?
Rod
Yep, Shapeways is a sinking ship,….and they were my go-to for metal 3-D parts……I did start looking into a home 3D metal printer for my shop, and quickly got sticker shock,……there are other 3D metal printer service companies out there, I’ve sent out one request, and have not heard back……I’ve got Dennis’s samples, and I’ll get on this before fall comes along…..I think a metal part is going to be the ticket here,……a drop of shaft loctite, and one or taps to seat it I think would be an ideal repair……
Pat
@harmonyards posted:Yep, Shapeways is a sinking ship,….and they were my go-to for metal 3-D parts……I did start looking into a home 3D metal printer for my shop, and quickly got sticker shock,……there are other 3D metal printer service companies out there, I’ve sent out one request, and have not heard back……I’ve got Dennis’s samples, and I’ll get on this before fall comes along…..I think a metal part is going to be the ticket here,……a drop of shaft loctite, and one or taps to seat it I think would be an ideal repair……
Pat
Pat, how about machining the spiders? I think it'll be several years before a realistic metal capable 3D printer cracks the 10K barrier.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Pat, how about machining the spiders? I think it'll be several years before a realistic metal capable 3D printer cracks the 10K barrier.
Pretty tedious task. While you can get precision brass bearing balls you would have to drill 3 holes at 90 degrees to each other in three axes. Likely require a custom jig to mass produce them.
Pete
Well, I know next to nothing about machining stuff, so that makes sense. Perhaps casting makes more sense. 
The ugly ('space gray') PETG spiders are doing just fine. Yesterday and today... I'm rewiring a bunch of passenger cars and using the F3 to test them. I imagine that with the original testing of the F3, the test the last 2 days and a lot of running in between... there is probably at least 50 hrs on those spiders. I certainly will let you know when they fail.
Mine are pressed on... you could add an adhesive ...PETG will take most adhesives.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Well, I know next to nothing about machining stuff, so that makes sense. Perhaps casting makes more sense.
Pete’s right about it being a PITA to machine such a critter,….casting them would be another clock bandit, ……I need to get one of Dennis’s printed in metal from his file and see how hard it is to install DIY style …..that’s the kicker, …..making it so anybody with basic hand tools and knowledge can knock them on without it being a major job,…..I might’ve mentioned this, but the goal would be to have this in “kit” form where you get a handful of spiders, and a tiny vile of 640, or 680 shaft loc, ……the idea being the shaft loc would act like an installation aid lubricating the spider for the split second install,….couple light taps, and she’s done …..So the fitment has to be right on the money for a metal part, to prevent a wreck,……
Pat
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Well, I know next to nothing about machining stuff, so that makes sense. Perhaps casting makes more sense.
Its the small size that makes it a PITA to machine. Its the size of a pea. Just twice the size would make it a lot easier.
Pete
@Dennis-LaRock posted:The ugly ('space gray') PETG spiders are doing just fine. Yesterday and today... I'm rewiring a bunch of passenger cars and using the F3 to test them. I imagine that with the original testing of the F3, the test the last 2 days and a lot of running in between... there is probably at least 50 hrs on those spiders. I certainly will let you know when they fail.
Mine are pressed on... you could add an adhesive ...PETG will take most adhesives.
Dennis I am encouraged by your findings with your PETG spiders. 50 hours is huge! As mentioned I just slapped in two of the ones you sent me, so we shall see how they perform. I'd say 50 hours on yours is a win and bodes well. And even if they last only half of that, they are so easy to change out its a no-brainer and takes only minutes. That seems OK to me and avoids the trouble and expense of having metal ones made up. 
If we were going metal Pat, like brass, I would say a hole size of 2.3mm is about right and should give an interference fit on the shaft of about 1 thou. (My shafts miked at 2.33mm OD) If that turns out to be too tight a little bit of reaming with a common 2.3mm bit should make it a go. And if the fit is slightly snug (but it can be gently tapped on) I would bet they will be fine without loctite. It would be surprising to me if they slipped or came loose, especially on the shaft examples that already have the splines. Just my non-expert take.
Rod
@Rod Stewart posted:Dennis I am encouraged by your findings with your PTEG spiders. 50 hours is huge! As mentioned I just slapped in two of the ones you sent me, so we shall see how they perform. I'd say 50 hours on yours is a win and bodes well. And even if they last only half of that, they are so easy to change out its a no-brainer and takes only minutes. That seems OK to me and avoids the trouble and expense of having metal ones made up.
If we were going metal Pat, like brass, I would say a hole size of 2.3mm is about right and should give an interference fit on the shaft of about 1 thou. (My shafts miked at 2.33mm OD) If that turns out to be too tight a little bit of reaming with a common 2.3mm bit should make it a go. And if the fit is slightly snug (but it can be gently tapped on) I would bet they will be fine without loctite. It would be surprising to me if they slipped or came loose, especially on the shaft examples that already have the splines. Just my non-expert take.
Rod
640 or 680 shaft loc would be the cheap insurance policy, ……DIY tiny viles can be had for pennies,……also, if it’s a tight fit, the shaft loc will actually aid in installation. Then when it does the deed, you’ll need an air chisel to get it off 😁
Pat
@Rod Stewart posted:As mentioned I just slapped in two of the ones you sent me, so we shall see how they perform. I'd say 50 hours on yours is a win and bodes well.
Rod
Rod, Did you ream them? They are printed at 2.3mm... but, they tend to print a whisker tight ...maybe, 2.28-2.29mm.
@Dennis-LaRock posted:Rod, Did you ream them? They are printed at 2.3mm... but, they tend to print a whisker tight ...maybe, 2.28-2.29mm.
That’s what I mean, ….in metal, 2.28 might be a hassle for DIY guys, ……folks like us that know how to ream, or even bore won’t have an issue, ….I can tell you from experience, the 3D print metal can be hard as darn it,…..and that’s pretty hard…….I’d imagine that spider printed in metal will laugh at a jeweler’s file…..
Pat
@Dennis-LaRock posted:Rod, Did you ream them? They are printed at 2.3mm... but, they tend to print a whisker tight ...maybe, 2.28-2.29mm.
@harmonyards posted:That’s what I mean, ….in metal, 2.28 might be a hassle for DIY guys, ……folks like us that know how to ream, or even bore won’t have an issue, ….I can tell you from experience, the 3D print metal can be hard as darn it,…..and that’s pretty hard…….I’d imagine that spider printed in metal will laugh at a jeweler’s file…..
Pat
Yes I reamed the PETG spiders to 2.30mm and they fit press-on snug on the 2.33mm shafts with splines.
Pat if that metal is that hard it may well cause trouble trying to press onto those shafts, and reaming with a standard HSS bit might not be possible. Maybe we better hold off on metal printed until we get a bit more time/mileage on the PETG's?
Rod
I've used PETG for a lot of structural outdoor projects for a few years now... and, none of it has shrunk, cracked or broken ...it can take a beating. Indoors, climatically controlled... who knows how long it will last? If Rod got a good snug fit... he should be in business for a while.
SCRATCH the last sentence! Rod is good to go!
@Rod Stewart posted:Yes I reamed the PETG spiders to 2.30mm and they fit press-on snug on the 2.33mm shafts with splines.
Pat if that metal is that hard it may well cause trouble trying to press onto those shafts, and reaming with a standard HSS bit might not be possible. Maybe we better hold off on metal printed until we get a bit more time/mileage on the PETG's?
Rod
Rod, Unlikely its harder than high speed steel (HSS). If so there is always carbide.
Pete
@Norton posted:Rod, Unlikely its harder than high speed steel (HSS). If so there is always carbide.
Pete
So Pat, Pete, Dennis; should we throw caution to the wind and get a few printed in brass? There will be a cost associated with this for sure and I am quite happy to chip in my share.
Rod
I do have a cache of 40-50 spiders... let me know when you're running short Rod and I'll send you a gross. 
@Rod Stewart posted:So Pat, Pete, Dennis; should we throw caution to the wind and get a few printed in brass? There will be a cost associated with this for sure and I am quite happy to chip in my share.
Rod
Me too! Running O-45 - O-72, I've wound up with my fair share of Lion-drives.
@Rod Stewart posted:So Pat, Pete, Dennis; should we throw caution to the wind and get a few printed in brass? There will be a cost associated with this for sure and I am quite happy to chip in my share.
Rod
I’m gonna get some printed in metal, first I need to get a sample from the printer to see how the file worked out for the bore, ……..I’ve asked the the one vendor if he can factor in to come in right at 2.30, ….I think in metal, that’s going to be the magic number, …..I’m thinking in the simplistic DIY arena, ….dot it with 680, set it on the shaft, and one light tap sets it forever…….if we have people beating these things on, it’s going to be disastrous,…..My idea as well, incorporates an ever so slight chamfer on one edge, this will allow the user to set it on the shaft, nice & straight, and one pop sets it….one thing I’ve found measuring a gazzillion 385’s is that shaft size remains fairly consistent at 2.300XXX
Pat
Oops. ….I meant 2.330XXX
Pat
Sounds like you've got it nailed Pat. You'll have to keep us posted on progress.
Since Lionel kind of left us all standing at the station on these Liondrives, hopefully we can get a workable fix and help other folks get those shelf queens with spider failures up and running again! Yay!
Rod
@Rod Stewart posted:Sounds like you've got it nailed Pat. You'll have to keep us posted on progress.
Since Lionel kind of left us all standing at the station on these Liondrives, hopefully we can get a workable fix and help other folks get those shelf queens with spider failures up and running again! Yay!
Rod
It’s kinda become a habit problem solving drive line issues, ……however, I can’t take all the credit on these fixes, …..on this one, you guys have run with the ball,……
Pat
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I think it'll be several years before a realistic metal capable 3D printer cracks the 10K barrier.
John, Pick up a spool of BASF Ultrafuse 316L SS for 250.00... and a 3,500.00 Sintering Furnace (1700C) and you will be spitting out metal parts for under 4K.
@Dennis-LaRock posted:John, Pick up a spool of BASF Ultrafuse 316L SS for 250.00... and a 3,500.00 Sintering Furnace (1700C) and you will be spitting out metal parts for under 4K.
Well, I won't, but maybe someone will. After reading how you use it, it ain't a simple process, and there's lots of places to go wrong.
Ultrafuse® 316L User Guidelines
@Dennis-LaRock posted:I do have a cache of 40-50 spiders... let me know when you're running short Rod and I'll send you a gross.
Thanks Dennis; I have most of the 10 or so you sent me, so we’ll see how they fare. I am optimistic after your experience so far.
ANOTHER UPDATE: I managed to find the matching powered B unit for this set 6-34585 and have had it running for a few days now. Curiosity got to me about the OEM drive spiders so I popped the drives off for inspection. Lo and behold they are both fine. No obvious cracks and no apparent slipping. This was a bit surprising given that they are 14 years old. I tried gently prying them off the motor shafts with a pair of small screwdrivers and they don't budge. So for whatever reason they are faring much better than those in the powered A unit. Regular inspections will continue.
Rod
The original ones are diecast. They would eat into the coupling and the coupling had to be replaced. Much easier than replacing the spider. Greasing them will help them last longer.
Pete
A FURTHER UPDATE:
The Liondrive A and B units that I retrofitted with Dennis' PETG spiders are still holding up just fine. Since those drives disassemble so easily I have inspected them a couple of times; no ill effects at all. I am guessing I must have 5 or 6 hours accumulated runtime on them by now, spread over a couple of months. And that’s straight and level plus lots of curves down to 031 and lots of grade climbing too up and down to my raised upper loop.
They definitely hold up better than my resin printed originals. Resin is too brittle I think. Dennis; I’d say you have a winner with them!
Rod
