UPDATE: Failed Lionel Legacy F3AA Liondrives

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...Powered-2373-6-34583

related topic https://ogrforum.com/...l-can-motor-question

Vernon; thanks for that link. Sure enough that was the problem. Both the little pinions (or whatever they are called) were split and slipping on the motor shafts. The lower driven pieces (crowns?) were intact and fine. I glued the pinions back onto the shafts with Goo and will let them set overnight, then we'll see if she's fixed. The splitting problem reminds me of the split drive gear problem on Railking crossing gates. Exact same situation.

I made a sketch and took measurements of the pinion pieces and may see if they can be 3D printed. That may be the answer if it happens again, especially since you can't buy them separately. Here's a couple of pictures:

Rod

That little part with four radial prongs looks like what is called a "spider" in an automotive universal joint. It certainly doesn't appear to be very securely attached to the motor shaft (Loctite might work in this situation also). Was the socket that it fits into also slipping on its shaft?

Forgot to mention; when gluing the "spiders" back on I noticed the motor shafts actually have 4 stamped in longitudinal splines, to prevent spider slippage I guess. But if the spider splits, all bets are off of course!

A forum member kindly sent me a link to the Mike Reagan video on these drives, from probably 11-12 years ago.  I was especially intrigued by the part where the truck can be removed simply by rotating it CCW. No tools needed. Neat idea.

I think the Liondrive idea was a good effort, its too bad they cheaped out with that crappy plastic spider. That should have been machined brass or aluminum even. I got mine back together by affixing the spiders to the shafts with Goo, and got it running again this morning. All is well so far after about 1/2 hour pulling 6 passenger cars. They look good together.

So for the record it looks like Goo is a suitable adhesive for this repair operation!

Rod

@Rod Stewart posted:

A forum member kindly sent me a link to the Mike Reagan video on these drives, from probably 11-12 years ago.  I was especially intrigued by the part where the truck can be removed simply by rotating it CCW. No tools needed. Neat idea.

I think the Liondrive idea was a good effort, its too bad they cheaped out with that crappy plastic spider. That should have been machined brass or aluminum even. I got mine back together by affixing the spiders to the shafts with Goo, and got it running again this morning. All is well so far after about 1/2 hour pulling 6 passenger cars. They look good together.

So for the record it looks like Goo is a suitable adhesive for this repair operation!

Rod

Some of them are metal, odd they they went with plastic on yours.  FWIW, it's very common for those to come loose from the shaft, my fix is Loctite #660 Retaining Compound.

John I am wondering if they went metal later in production? This F3 set is 2010 vintage so it might be kind of early days for Liondrive. I also wonder why they don't sell replacement metal spiders, and the lower crown piece made of metal for that matter?? The mysteries of Lionel I guess.

Overall I like the design, and the slick truck removal method. And having the motors firmly affixed to the frame is a great idea. Saves all the wire flexing, twisting and chaffing that is common with motors affixed to the trucks.

Rod

I'm glad you were able to fix it.

So here we go again! Once more these crappy drives have failed. Same old problem; the spiders are slipping on the motor shafts. This time around I'll try Loctite 660 as was suggested above. Has anyone else had success with any other fix method? It's going to get pretty tedious taking these things apart every few months to try something new. Ho-hum.

Rod

I'm a long way from an expert, but Walther's Goo is flexible, and not something I'd use for this application (as I understand it). John mentioned he liked using Loctite 660 quite a while back, and I bought some after that. It's a type of superglue (and I've had varying success with superglues with over the years). Not sure what the 660 Retaining Compound is he mentions, but if that's something he uses I'd check it out. Use some epoxy and it'll probably never slip, but I don't know if that's appropriate here.

The early metal spiders ate into the coupling eventually breaking the coupling. I guess they went to plastic to avoid that but created this secondary issue. Easier to swap out the coupling than the spider.

Not a fan of Lionel diesel trucks. The pre Liondrive trucks require removing a half dozen screws to remove them. Liondrive have all these failures.

MTH, Weaver, K-Line use a single screw.

Pete

@Norton posted:

Not a fan of Lionel diesel trucks. The pre Liondrive trucks require removing a half dozen screws to remove them. Liondrive have all these failures.

MTH, Weaver, K-Line use a single screw.

Pete

Amen to that brother!!

Here's a 3D replacement design I just whipped up.

Depending on available time I might print a few up tomorrow and replace the garbage plastic spiders with these and see if they work any better. Nothing to lose! If they work OK I'll shoot them onto the 3D site for all to use if desired.

Just checked the mating shaft coupler that the spider drives, and it is made of some type of non-ferrous metal. So hopefully it will last. From what I could see it shows absolutely no sign of wear at all.

If the coupling on the motor is plastic, retaining compounds such as Loctite 640, 680, etc., will never hold. I’ve tried for S&G’s ….retaining compounds will attack plastics, and the compound never cures. As mentioned by John, the metal ones are easily re-set with retaining compounds. Of course if it’s cracked, it’s game, set, match. ….

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

If the coupling on the motor is plastic, retaining compounds such as Loctite 640, 680, etc., will never hold. I’ve tried for S&G’s ….retaining compounds will attack plastics, and the compound never cures. As mentioned by John, the metal ones are easily re-set with retaining compounds. Of course if it’s cracked, it’s game, set, match. ….
Pat

Geez Pat; you sure don't paint a pretty picture! Have you tried CA glue on them? Wonder if that might work. I was thinking to maybe try affixing the resin printed spiders with that. Being as how cured resin is brittle kind of like glass, you really don't want too much stress caused by too tight a fit on the shaft.

I wish there was some feasible way to machine them out of brass stock. That might be the ultimate solution, but it's way out of my wheelhouse!

@Rod Stewart posted:

Geez Pat; you sure don't paint a pretty picture! Have you tried CA glue on them? Wonder if that might work. I was thinking to maybe try affixing the resin printed spiders with that. Being as how cured resin is brittle kind of like glass, you really don't want too much stress caused by too tight a fit on the shaft.

I wish there was some feasible way to machine them out of brass stock. That might be the ultimate solution, but it's way out of my wheelhouse!

Sorry to bust your bubble Rod, ….I’ve dealt with several plastic ones, 99% of them were cracked through,….fortunately for me, I had spare metal ones from motor swaps…I experimented with every thing you could think of for the plastic ones…..problem is, they’re made from delrin plastic, which makes it hard for cement to stick,….I think the best way to approach this, would be to bite the bullet, and have one made in 3D print metal,….if they could be printed in metal, with a precise fit just a couple love taps to drive it on with loctite 640, 680, or your preferred retaining compound, that would be the way to go for a permanent repair,……I’ve had guys send me 3D metal printed parts, and I’ve been quite frankly impressed with the structural integrity…..for that part, that’d be my go to,…..why Lionel can’t make these by the bag full for techs and hobbyist alike is another one of those annoying practices where they turn a deaf ear to the aftermarket …..

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

……I’ve had guys send me 3D metal printed parts, and I’ve been quite frankly impressed with the structural integrity…..for that part, that’d be my go to,…..why Lionel can’t make these by the bag full for techs and hobbyist alike is another one of those annoying practices where they turn a deaf ear to the aftermarket …..

Pat

Yah typical big company philosophy; once the product is off the shelves and the money is in the bank, to heck with aftermarket problems, just drive on. Makes me happy I don't have too many Lionels of this era.

I think we may be onto something here though. Once I am happy with printed resin part fit and operation, maybe you can hook me up with someone who could 3D print them in metal? Then we might be able to get a final fix of this annoying problem and share it with everyone here. Have you ever used Shapeways?

Rod

Rod, maybe try an interference fit with the resin first rather than relying on an adhesive. See if it holds up and the material doesn’t split on you. A lot will depend on the knurling on the shaft if this will work.

Pete

@Norton posted:

Rod, maybe try an interference fit with the resin first rather than relying on an adhesive. See if it holds up and the material doesn’t split on you. A lot will depend on the knurling on the shaft if this will work.

Pete

The motor shafts with the spider on them are smooth, at least all of them I've encountered.

@Rod Stewart posted:

Yah typical big company philosophy; once the product is off the shelves and the money is in the bank, to heck with aftermarket problems, just drive on. Makes me happy I don't have too many Lionels of this era.

I think we may be onto something here though. Once I am happy with printed resin part fit and operation, maybe you can hook me up with someone who could 3D print them in metal? Then we might be able to get a final fix of this annoying problem and share it with everyone here. Have you ever used Shapeways?

Rod

The folks I’ve worked with have done exactly what you’ve suggested. They made a 3D printed part in plastic ( usually PLA ) then together we tested, tweaked, and perfected a part, then they outsourced the metal printing project to a 3rd party,…..I know shapeways was one of the vendors. If you have a file, get it to me and I’ll print some for experimentation, and then see what it’ll take to get them in metal.

Pat

I have had the same problem, but the spider gear was metal and not cracked.  The spider gear just spun on the motor shaft.  All I had to do was make a very small deformation on the shaft using vise grips and then using the lock type John suggested, tapped the spider into place.  The trick is to deform the shaft making "ribs/splines" so the the spider does not spin, but yet will not break because of the added stress due to the shaft "ribs/splines".  You might have seen these on other shafts holding gears in place.

3D print sounds like the way to go if yours is split.  Still might want to add some spines to the shaft.  I guess the other option is to purchase replacement motors if available...

Thanks for all the input and suggestions so far.

Made some progress today, got 3 printed and test fit one to a motor in the F3, see below:

It turns out that the motor shaft has several splines already cut in it. I reamed the spider opening out out to 2.30mm using a pin vise, and its a nice press fit onto the shaft, which measures 2.33mm OD.  The 3 100ths of an mm undersize translates to about one thou in inches, so pretty close fit. I am still planning to use something like Loctite 660 to hopefully secure it when I get to final assembly. Hoping for the best. Maybe epoxy would be the best adhesive? Need something that will bond with cured resin. I still think a printed metal part would be the best.

I tried a test fit of the metal coupling over the spider and it fits nicely and quite close.

I don’t think there’s a retaining compound that works with plastic. At least I’ve never seen one. I’d do a little research on 660 before I commit….

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

I don’t think there’s a retaining compound that works with plastic. At least I’ve never seen one. I’d do a little research on 660 before I commit….

Pat

Pat,

is there enough room to drill and pin? In clock repair we have some ultra small bits/tools/locking pins for slipping wheel count drives? If there is room drill and set pin?

Craig

PennCentralShops

@harmonyards posted:

I don’t think there’s a retaining compound that works with plastic. At least I’ve never seen one. I’d do a little research on 660 before I commit….

Pat

#660 is no exception, not normally used for plastic.

This product is not normally recommended for use on plastics
(particularly thermoplastic materials where stress cracking of the
plastic could result). Users are recommended to confirm compatibility
of the product with such substrates.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

#660 is no exception, not normally used for plastic.

This product is not normally recommended for use on plastics
(particularly thermoplastic materials where stress cracking of the
plastic could result). Users are recommended to confirm compatibility
of the product with such substrates.

John you had mentioned you used 660 for this repair I believe. How are they holding up?

Just fine, the spider on the motor I used it on was metal.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Just fine, the spider on the motor I used it on was metal.

OK got it, thanks!

@ThatGuy posted:

Pat,

is there enough room to drill and pin? In clock repair we have some ultra small bits/tools/locking pins for slipping wheel count drives? If there is room drill and set pin?

Craig

PennCentralShops

That would be a Royal PITA Craig, …..if Rod gets good fitment results from his plastic part, and it don’t carry on & make noise, then I’d opt for printing it in metal,…..then the loctite shaft retainer will do it’s job!…..I’ve had some parts really loose fitting that the loctite saved the day!……I couldn’t budge them with a jack hammer & a grenade…😉

Pat

Rod, why not just put it through its paces right now as is? Put about 15 passenger cars behind it and run it for a few hours and see how it stands up. You can make more spiders. If it cracks or spins on the shaft you need to try another material.

Pete

That’s true Pete, ……what can it hurt?….it might work just fine ….

Pat

@Norton posted:

Rod, why not just put it through its paces right now as is? Put about 15 passenger cars behind it and run it for a few hours and see how it stands up. You can make more spiders. If it cracks or spins on the shaft you need to try another material.

Pete

Yah that's the plan Pete. But it's going to have to wait a few days because we leave tomorrow AM, back next Saturday. Chock it up to spousal pressure!

@Norton posted:

Rod, why not just put it through its paces right now as is? Put about 15 passenger cars behind it and run it for a few hours and see how it stands up. You can make more spiders. If it cracks or spins on the shaft you need to try another material.

Pete

Amen to that Pete, my father would alway say “ keep it simple **upid” his other great saying was” this is not Apollo. We are not going to the moon, we are not building the lunar lem, it’s a toy train”

Did some research and for bonding with cured resin superglue is recommended, something like epoxy glue. So I will plan to give that a try, though it’s going to be tricky!

I'm constantly amazed by the creative problem solving that happens on this Forum.

Moral of the story for me is don't by Liondrive engines......I get into enough trouble with what I have as is......

Great work gents.

Bob

@RSJB18 posted:

Moral of the story for me is don't by Liondrive engines......I get into enough trouble with what I have as is......

Well, I can't totally get behind that advice.   If you've ever had to take the Lionel puzzle trucks apart to get them off, you'll realize how much easier that the Liondrive trucks make the job!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, I can't totally get behind that advice.   If you've ever had to take the Lionel puzzle trucks apart to get them off, you'll realize how much easier that the Liondrive trucks make the job!

I have 3 RS-11's with those infamous trucks ......won't buy any more of them after my recent adventures either.....