@RSJB18 posted:I have 3 RS-11's with those infamous trucks ......won't buy any more of them after my recent adventures either.....
Those trucks are so miserable, I machine a grease port in the block, and tap the end for a 2mm flat head screw,……My son has a bunch of these, and he runs the dog snot out of them!….I got sick of dismantling those things……
Pat
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Well, I can't totally get behind that advice.
If you've ever had to take the Lionel puzzle trucks apart to get them off, you'll realize how much easier that the Liondrive trucks make the job!
I thought you knew….Lionel wants to help keep your mind active with the mystery truck puzzles……lmao
Homer Simpson GiF used by permission of 20th Century Fox through the Gipfy App.
Craig
PennCentralShops
@harmonyards posted:That would be a Royal PITA Craig, …..if Rod gets good fitment results from his plastic part, and it don’t carry on & make noise, then I’d opt for printing it in metal,…..then the loctite shaft retainer will do it’s job!…..I’ve had some parts really loose fitting that the loctite saved the day!……I couldn’t budge them with a jack hammer & a grenade…😉
Pat
Pat can I send you my .stl file for the spiders so you can explore getting them made of metal, perhaps brass?
Rod
@Rod Stewart posted:Pat can I send you my .stl file for the spiders so you can explore getting them made of metal, perhaps brass?
Rod
Rod, if you have a good .STL file for the spider, I'd like to get a copy. I bit the bullet and have a 3D printer coming the Creality K1C. I could try printing them in carbon fiber filament, one of the tricks the printer claims to be able to do.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Rod, if you have a good .STL file for the spider, I'd like to get a copy. I bit the bullet and have a 3D printer coming the Creality K1C. I could try printing them in carbon fiber filament, one of the tricks the printer claims to be able to do.
Carbon Fiber would not be a good choice it's very abrasive for one and brittle. PC or Nylon would be a much better choice.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Rod, if you have a good .STL file for the spider, I'd like to get a copy. I bit the bullet and have a 3D printer coming the Creality K1C. I could try printing them in carbon fiber filament, one of the tricks the printer claims to be able to do.
Welcome to the crazy world of 3D printing grj; I figured you would jump in one day! 
Below posted is my current .stl file for these spiders, for anyone to have a go at. It should load into any slicer software without issue.
Rod
@Rod Stewart posted:Pat can I send you my .stl file for the spiders so you can explore getting them made of metal, perhaps brass?
Rod
Yep, …we can give it a whirl and see what happens…..send it John too, carbon filament might be an avenue to explore as well,….email in my profile buddy …
Pat
Well, I did see that you could get Kevlar filament, but it costs around $600/kg, so I don't think I'll be using that anytime soon. I read up on Nylon printing, but until I figure out venting, I suspect I may not want to do that.
I like the idea of printing them in metal since you could then use the proper retaining compound to really secure them to the shaft.
@harmonyards posted:Yep, …we can give it a whirl and see what happens…..send it John too, carbon filament might be an avenue to explore as well,….email in my profile buddy …
Pat
Pat did you pick that .stl file off the post 3 up? Otherwise I can send it to you via email.
Rod
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Well, I did see that you could get Kevlar filament, but it costs around $600/kg, so I don't think I'll be using that anytime soon. I read up on Nylon printing, but until I figure out venting, I suspect I may not want to do that.
I like the idea of printing them in metal since you could then use the proper retaining compound to really secure them to the shaft.
You do not need venting necessarily there are several carbon filters you can print that will do the job. Nevermore is the one I use for Nylon, ABS and ASA. Nevermore Github it should capture the bad stuff. Make sure to use the right carbon it there are some with acids that reak havoc KB3D Fabreeko and WEST3D are my sources.
I forgot to mention earlier that the printed resin spiders seem to be working just fine in the F-7 A-A set. I wound up just press fitting them onto the motor shafts because I was pretty sure that trying to mix and apply epoxy glue to these small parts would create a big mess, with epoxy everywhere except where it was needed. Checking with a magnifying glass there was no evidence of resin cracking, so all is well.
They have not had more than an hour or so of running thus far, but they seem to be working as intended. I still think that printed brass spiders will ultimately be the best fix however.
Rod
@Rod Stewart posted:Pat did you pick that .stl file off the post 3 up? Otherwise I can send it to you via email.
Rod
I seen it after I replied to your request Rod, ….I have it now,….I’ll see what I can do 😄
Pat
@Shawn_Chronister posted:You do not need venting necessarily there are several carbon filters you can print that will do the job nevermore is the one I use for Nylon, ABS and ASA. Nevermore Github it should capture the bad stuff.
Actually, there is a 3D printed filter holder for my K1C that uses, it's printing now.
I have another hour or so of run time on the F3’s, pulling it’s normal consist of 7 passenger cars, up and down various grades. All is well so far and the printed resin spiders are apparently holding up fine. Next step will be to pop one of the trucks off and do an internal inspection, since they come off so easily.
Rod
Rod, the spider has a 24 sided hole (as do the four shafts) I can get it down to 360 sides... that's pretty smooth ...if, you think it's worth a shot. Actually, use the perfect circle.stl for holes and cylinders.
Dennis that's a pretty smooth circle! You're thinking using that for the 2.3mm diam hole in the spider are you? I actually think a few sides might be better for the hole to provide a little roughness for better grip on the small splines on the motor shafts, what do you think?
Rod
Rod,
I think we test them and see what happens! My Santa Fe F3 has a split spider... it's been on my to-do list for about 3 months ...and, now looks like it will get some attention! Thanks to you!
Perfect circle is OK if you make it an interference fit like 2.28 vs 2.3.
Pete
@Rod Stewart posted:Dennis that's a pretty smooth circle! You're thinking using that for the 2.3mm diam hole in the spider are you? I actually think a few sides might be better for the hole to provide a little roughness for better grip on the small splines on the motor shafts, what do you think?
Rod
I think the idea is the splines cut into the plastic and give you a more secure fit.
@Dennis-LaRock posted:Rod,
I think we test them and see what happens! My Santa Fe F3 has a split spider... it's been on my to-do list for about 3 months ...and, now looks like it will get some attention! Thanks to you!
Yah I agree. I would love to see how they work made of nylon; that would wear way better than resin against the metal crown coupler I suspect. When are you printing them up? BTW, what era are your Santa Fe F3's?
The F3 is the 6-34573 from 2010.
Your stl printed just fine with PETG at 0.1mm layer height... and, 1 minute to print.
I just ordered the Nylon, we will see how that goes as I've not used it before... and, then of course I have to sit down and actually do the install. So, maybe 4-5 days.
you can't get Delrin can you?
Leading companies across the globe specify Delrin® acetal homopolymer for high-load mechanical applications such as gears, safety restraints, door systems, conveyor belts, healthcare delivery devices, and other demanding products and parts. Delrin® acetal homopolymer (Polyoxymethylene POM) is the ideal material in parts designed to replace metal. It combines low-friction and high-wear resistance with the high strength and stiffness such applications require. It provides a wide operating temperature range (-40 °C to 90 °C) and good colorability. Delrin® also mates well with metals and other polymers and offers excellent dimensional stability in high precision molding.
I don't know anything about printing these!
The trouble with nylon and delrin is they are very slippery and adhesive won’t stick to them. They would only work if the motor shaft is splined or knurled.
Pete
Joe, John also mentioned Delrin... so;
Dennis... the Guinea Pig! 200grams ordered $10.95... at 0.07 grams per spider, should keep us in spiders! Look what Rod hath wrought! Hope it works 
Gizmo Dorks Acetal Delrin Filament for 3D Printers 1.75mm 200g, Black
Pete, I have da splines and looking at pressure (interference?) fitment... also, per John ... maybe a dab Loctite 380 Black Max. It may or may not work out... such is my life.
@Dennis-LaRock posted:Joe, John also mentioned Delrin... so;
Dennis... the Guinea Pig! 200grams ordered $10.95... at 0.07 grams per spider, should keep us in spiders! Look what Rod hath wrought! Hope it works
Gizmo Dorks Acetal Delrin Filament for 3D Printers 1.75mm 200g, Black
It'll be interesting to see how the Delrin works out. One thing about Delrin, it doesn't take to glue at all, so the splines and the interference fit is all important. If you search on Delrin glue, most people say it doesn't exist.
I'd make sure the shaft is well knurled and press it on.
If you have a smooth motor shaft (you could score it, I suppose) wouldn't Rod's 24 sided Bore work with an adhesive to fill the gaps when usiing Nylon or Delrin?
@Dennis-LaRock posted:The F3 is the 6-34573 from 2010.
Your stl printed just fine with PETG at 0.1mm layer height... and, 1 minute to print.
I just ordered the Nylon, we will see how that goes as I've not used it before... and, then of course I have to sit down and actually do the install. So, maybe 4-5 days.
Is that tiny darkish spec in the middle of the platen the spider?? Good to hear it printed well. I suspect that to fit it to the motor shaft you are going to have to ream out the center hole somewhat. A 2.3 bit in a pin vise seems to work well. I just happened to have that exact size bit in a set of metric drill bits bought a while ago. You could probably find a bit close enough in a number bit drill set too; like a #43 or #42. It will be interesting to hear how it fits up for you. BTW, you probably know this, but you can easily remove the truck from these engines without any need to take it all apart. Simply turn the truck about 110 degrees CCW. Then hold the engine right side up and lower the truck away. There is a 3 pin plug to easily disconnect the truck from the engine.
Your SF F3's are in the same era as my CP F3's; they are 6-34582. Do you run the F3's tail to tail? If so you likely have found that both headlights are on in forward and off in reverse. And that you need to hit the F uncoupler to open the coupler on the rear dummy unit. And that the backup light is lit on the rear dummy unit when both are moving forward. It's like Lionel wired them up so as to run both nose forward. But if you run them this way then the electro-coupler on the rear dummy unit is on the front connected to the front unit; which makes no sense at all. 
I made a couple of minor plug n' play wiring changes on the dummy unit so it now plays well with the front powered unit. The rear coupler now works when you press the R button, the rear headlight is on in reverse, off in forward, and rear marker leds are red when in forward, and the backup light is off when it should be. Cab lights are off in motion and on when stopped. Way more sensible. I can show you exactly how to make the necessary changes if you like. Pretty simple, no wiring changes and no soldering. No changes to any OEM parts at all.
Rod
@Dennis-LaRock posted:If you have a smooth motor shaft (you could score it, I suppose) wouldn't Rod's 24 sided Bore work with an adhesive to fill the gaps when usiing Nylon or Delrin?
Conventional wisdom is that you can’t glue nylon, including nylon 6, nylon 66, nylon 6/6-6, nylon 6/9, nylon 6/10, nylon 6/12, nylon 11, nylon 12, Zytel® or any type of nylon. With the use of an adhesion promoter and a CA you can get a modest superficial glue joint with some nylons.
HOLY CANNOLI ROD!!! I haven't run it in a bit... I'll have to check all conditions you sited and report back. It is sitting in the IHC engine shed on the layout though and the shed has been LED'd visa via the Rod Stewart write-up!
Oh yeah, Anyone care for a Plate of Spiders?
Well, I'm doing the interference fitment... and, I'll no doubt find other uses for the nylon & delrin. Not a great day for the splineless.
Dennis, are you sure you printed enough?? Kidding aside, they look great. I would like to try a few just to compare with the resin printed version. The cool thing is that even if you have to change them every so often, it's dead easy since the trucks remove so nicely, with no tools needed even!
@Dennis-LaRock posted:HOLY CANNOLI ROD!!! I haven't run it in a bit... I'll have to check all conditions you sited and report back. It is sitting in the IHC engine shed on the layout though and the shed has been LED'd visa via the Rod Stewart write-up!
Oh yeah, Anyone care for a Plate of Spiders?
@Sams Trains ……i don’t know how he’s not seeing this thread, …..he’s having a coupling issue with an ES44, …..same coupling…….hopefully Dennis could spare a gazzillion? 😂😂😂
Pat
My curiosity got the best of me; I just pulled a truck off the F3 to inspect the resin spider, now that it has a couple of hours use on it.
Close up with a magnifying glass revealed no wear marks at all, nothing broken and nothing split! Plus it is in the same spot flush with the end of the shaft, so it does not seem to have moved at all. Very encouraging news all in all. So it's back on the layout hauling passenger cars around. Yay! 
That's Great News Rod! And, good point, I'll make sure to mark them and check for movement. I'll get a bunch of nylon (clear/whiteish) and delrin (black) to you hot off the build plate.
@harmonyards posted:@Sams Trains ……i don’t know how he’s not seeing this thread, …..he’s having a coupling issue with an ES44, …..same coupling…….hopefully Dennis could spare a gazzillion? 😂😂😂
Pat
Oh wow! Yeah @Dennis-LaRock I will need a set of those at least lol. Should I email you for purchasing one?
Sam, Just shoot me your address. At this point, I do not even know if they will work until I've run the prototypes for a few hours. I don't even have the material yet to print them. STAY TUNED!!! 
@Dennis-LaRock Excellent job, I am following your progress, as I have a shelf queen that needs to have these replaced. Thank you for the updates. Please let me know when they hit the market.
@Dennis-LaRock posted:Oh yeah, Anyone care for a Plate of Spiders?
You're maxing out the build plate, I wonder of some of those on the edge will be missing the far end? 
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