Well,
Just reviewed the lastest Lionel Catalog. Although they don't list them, there is a section of unsold stock of cars and track near the back of the catalog. Lionel has thrown in the towel on S.
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Actually, from page 166 through page 222 are all labeled STILL AVAILABLE...
It would be nice to know exactly what that really means. Included in those pages are pretty much all the Lionel Fastrack, so I can't imagine that means they've thrown in the towel on their track line! Also, all their transformers and LCS stuff are listed in that section. It "appears" that it just means they're not new for this year.
There are two newly cataloged S gauge Polar Express cars on page 149 in addition to the carry over cars and track in the "Still Available" section.
Guess I do not have to worry about sending Flyonel stuff back for repair from this catalog.
Gunny
Very sad. I guess I missed the 2 new Polar Express cars. Lionel does not want my money.
—Rocco—
Flyer will be a separate catalog.
Did they say it would be separate?
One could hope I guess, but they have always dropped the AF catalog the same day as the Big Book. And as there was a lot of “still available” flyer in the back of the big book I don’t see it happening.
It would be nice if Lionel would just tell us what direction Flyer is going, even if it is going away.
Ben
@NotInWI posted:One could hope I guess, but they have always dropped the AF catalog the same day as the Big Book. And as there was a lot of “still available” flyer in the back of the big book I don’t see it happening.
It would be nice if Lionel would just tell us what direction Flyer is going, even if it is going away.
Ben
Agreed
@Mike W. posted:Flyer will be a separate catalog.
Do you have a source or is this wishful thinking?
@NotInWI posted:It would be nice if Lionel would just tell us what direction Flyer is going, even if it is going away.
Ben
My guess is that any announcement by Lionel would be like the one for the S scale mechanical reefers few years back. Lionel informed us that "We didn't make them" on the very day those who pre-ordered them expected to pick them up at local dealers.
@TOKELLY posted:My guess is that any announcement by Lionel would be like the one for the S scale mechanical reefers few years back. Lionel informed us that "We didn't make them" on the very day those who pre-ordered them expected to pick them up at local dealers.
I remember that. That was a bad day. I was so excited for them. 2012-2013 were very good years for Flyer.
@Greekchief posted:Do you have a source or is this wishful thinking?
Past experience. And there has been new tooling in the Flyer line in recent years. They would have let it limp along with repaints for a decade if the brand was not healthy. I do wish Lionel would issue some of the many HO Scale locomotives they have the tools for. This includes some by some old line HO makes: Tyco/Mantua who's diecast steamers were superb; Marx; ATT (Plymouth under Model Power Name) etc.
@Mike W. posted:Past experience. And there has been new tooling in the Flyer line in recent years.
What new tooling for Flyer?
Tom Stoltz
in Maine
The head scratcher is we went from Y3s with whistle steam and reissues of Pacifics and some cool 75th anniversary stuff to….poof….
Ben
@NotInWI posted:The head scratcher is we went from Y3s with whistle steam and reissues of Pacifics and some cool 75th anniversary stuff to….poof….
Ben
I guess the orders just didn't repay the cost??? Not enough profit...
Tom Stoltz
in Maine
I think we are all outsiders, I know I am, so all we can do is guess. My guess is that Lionel put a lot of unplanned extra staff time and money into getting the Base 3 tested, finalized, certified and into production. Part of that is the new Cab 3 software and App. Lionel is also putting a lot of resources into the Vision Line Triplex with wheel slip. Add to that all the other new O gauge items in the 2024 catalog. Possibly something had to be delayed to get those priorities completed. That something might have been the S gauge items.
As far as what could be done in S scale with just incremental investment, Lionel could do a re-release of the Challenger just like they did with the Y3. They also have a pretty nice FlyerChief 4-8-4, that with a little add on detail could be released as a Legacy engine. They could release the Legacy Mikado, but the Pacific version is not a good low speed operator. The gear ratio needs work. Lionel could maybe release a Legacy version of the FlyerChief GP7. Be nice to have a Legacy and FlyerChief Hudson but that is likely too much to ask since they would be all new from scratch.
Full S scale locomotives and cars are typically small enough that they can be printed on the average size 3D printer in plastic, aluminum, or Stainless Steel.
Andrew
Tom
Reintroducing the Mikado, Challenger and FlyerChief northern are my biggest hopes. Your thoughts on the allocation of capital to front-burner projects is plausible, but as a guy spending a lot of money on S gauge (like many of you) I would just like to know the s gauge train is still at the station….as it were…or has it left.
Ben
Rerun the Flyerchief Geeps in the GP9 (new catalog) paint schemes would be a no brainer!
Gunny
@Tom Stoltz posted:What new tooling for Flyer?
Tom Stoltz
in Maine
New trucks for the Geeps. Arguably they could have left the Gilbert style trucks as they have that AF look.
I don't know if they would ditch S altogether but they could go to a two or more year cycle.
Brendan
A few possibilities are... (In no particular order)
1. Done with S. They believe the market is aging out. And sales figures don't warent further investment. (Does not explain lack of reissues with different paint schemes)
2. Luxury item sales are slowing due to inflation and economic uncertainty. They could be just waiting things out.
3. They could slow the release schedule. To increase sales of what is released. (Once a year or every other year)
4. Development Capital has been redistributed for cab 3.
5. Due to inflation and increased production costs. They believe the flyer market won't purchase items at what they can produce them for.
Feel free to copy and paste and or edit and add more.
This was just me spitballing s*** before I go into work.
@NotInWI posted:Tom
Reintroducing the Mikado, Challenger and FlyerChief northern are my biggest hopes. Your thoughts on the allocation of capital to front-burner projects is plausible, but as a guy spending a lot of money on S gauge (like many of you) I would just like to know the s gauge train is still at the station….as it were…or has it left.
Ben
There is an effective price limit to what the S market will bare in general. The Legacy Berks are gone and the Legacy Pacifics are dissappearing. Same for the FlyerChief Northerns. Many of the FlyerChief engines (except for the EP5's) sell. Using FlyerChief to modernize the Gilbert legacy (small L) locomotives is an approach that is working because this route yields modern remote control locomotives at reasonable prices. Following the Legacy Pacific with a Legacy Mikado makes sense.
The observation that the much more pricey new Y3a's are remaining on dealer shelves is the other side of the coin. Add to the high price a tendency for Lionel to leave one stranded without spare parts makes a $1600 investment questionable for many (most?). I do not see a reissue of the Challenger coming because it would be priced still higher and have the same commercial limitations. The modern Legacy diesel engines have been overdone and Lionel has not made the modern rolling stock to go with them, so the most current versions are also sitting. The practice of repainting Gilbert-style rolling stock is way passed its course and a $45 simple flat car with no load (?). You've got to be kidding.
A product idea that may still have legs is doing an SD-40. Doable in many road names and it would prototypically mate well era-wise with most S rolling stock. Lionel needs to be prepared to support their pricier offerings with parts support for the longer term. Unlike considering a 10 year old Dell laptop, most hobbiests do not look upon an expensive locomotive model as just more disposable electronics. The expectations are exceedingly different for the two markets. Redoubling attention to QC and to the details would be a plus. These suggestions, however, are likely to fall upon deaf ears because my personal belief that the attention and imagination currently devoted to AF product at Lionel is nonexistant.
Run and enjoy what you have. That's what I am doing.
Bob
I have a different perspective on this because I'm not an S gauger at home. I've stumbled into being the S gauge lead for our club, simply by being available to set up the S travel layout 3 years ago, following the illness and death of the prior leader. I followed on to re-tracking and re-wiring it, then acquiring new locomotives and cars.
Prior to my involvement, nearly all of the locomotives and rolling stock were PW vintage Flyer, in varying states of operability and cosmetic condition. We had a few newer Flyer and American Models cars. It was mostly a tribute to 1950s AF, largely irrelevant to anyone other than collectors and aging visitors who had AF trains as kids.
The layout was re-tracked with American Models and MTH flex track, plus AM turnouts, giving it a more of a "model railroad" than "toy train" look. We've acquired several American Models diesels and more cars from AF, AM, and S Helper. We need modern-production, realistic steamers that work - the Polar Express Berk that we acquired used has spent more time on the repair bench than on the layout.
Visitors to the club's annual Festival of Trains are often surprised that S is still alive and that there's "current" product available. Many have commented on the convenience of its size. I have to say that, had I not made such a large investment in O scale 3R locomotives and cars over many years, in retrospect I could have done a nicer home layout in S.
We would like to be able to purchase "ordinary" locomotives that are scale-sized and have a modest level of detail, such as Mikados, Ten-Wheelers, Pacifics, Geeps, U-boats, and modern diesels in the $300-600 price range. Legacy-like fancy features aren't particularly important - basic sounds and command control, ala TMCC, are sufficient; DCC/Blurail are "nice to haves". IMO, new product ought to abandon AF-inspired AC track power and adopt DC/DCC to take advantage of the vast amount of product available for HO and G trains, even though that complicates mixing in vintage AF locomotives.
As mentioned by others, a freshening of manufactured product every other year might fit the potential market well, especially if items are made in sufficient quantities to not sell out at delivery. The S market will never approach that of O, HO, or N, but adjusting offerings to emphasize the bottom and middle segments of the market and "everyday" locomotives that are not distorted toys would be wiser than replicating pricey Legacy-like features in S products.
Maybe someone will be able to get some face time with Ryan or Dave soon and ask, if nothing else, they tend to be at Trianfest and I will chat them up then (November 23rd and 24th) and see if I can get an answer.
Ben
Karl, almost all the suggestions in your 5th paragraph already exist. Every S gauge engine Lionel has made since 2014 will run with either DC track power or AC track power. All Legacy engines since 2014 will also run with DCC. The entry end command control system is FlyerChief, I do not think those are very expensive. There are in fact many of us S gaugers who do want highly detailed Legacy engines. A challenge for us and for Lionel in S is, unlike in O gauge, the number of purchasers drops dramatically for engines with a street price above $1,000. Lionel does not include pre-wiring for a DCC decoder in their conventional engines, but neither does American Models.
It is very unfortunate the club's Polar Express Berk encountered all those problems. My experience with a fleet of 46 Lionel command control and AM engines retrofitted with Lionel TMCC has been very few failures outside of smoke units. In club and public display layouts the smoke units are usually switched off so a bad smoke fan would usually be unimportant.
All the old Gilbert engines can run on DC track power. Many operators have retrofitted DCC into Gilbert engines but that usually requires a can motor. Drop in can motor conversion assemblies are sold by several vendors and are not expensive.
I like the sounds of what you would like to be able to buy, the challenge is probably that the S gauge sales volume is too low to support several different engines at that price point.
I do not see Lionel dropping the American Flyer line, at this point they are the largest supplier. My concern is about the mix and frequency of new products.
Ben, I hope you can tease some information out of them.
I would want to see more Gilbert Reissues. Re-do the sets with the Northerns as a FlyerChief. Put the old Gilbert trucks back. Get rid of the odd looking cars like that 0-27 shrunken caboose and the aquarium car. The last AF purchase was the Clinchfield Coal Hauler and I was very impressed by the solid QC and value. I wanted the new Southern PA but have an issue with a PA Powered/Dummy selling for $850.
@AmFlyer posted:Every S gauge engine Lionel has made since 2014 will run with either DC track power or AC track power. All Legacy engines since 2014 will also run with DCC. The entry end command control system is FlyerChief, I do not think those are very expensive. There are in fact many of us S gaugers who do want highly detailed Legacy engines. A challenge for us and for Lionel in S is, unlike in O gauge, the number of purchasers drops dramatically for engines with a street price above $1,000. Lionel does not include pre-wiring for a DCC decoder in their conventional engines, but neither does American Models.
Just to be clear; does Legacy mean more detail, the electronic system, or both? While I like the detail of the Mikado, Pacific, and Y3 (the ones I have), I do not like the extra cost of the electronics. I got rid of the electronics for my Mikado and I guess my Y3 is older than 2014 because a Lionel repair guy had to reprogram it so it could run on DC. Its DC is, shall we say, lacking. My DC Y3 runs to a different drummer than the rest of my DC locos.
From what I’ve learned on this list, about Lionel electronic boards is that they fail and there is no replacement. I am also not interested in another operating system for my trains. I do have the Flyer Chief Berk and like just about everybody else, its smoke unit has stopped working. I’m sure it won’t be long until the whole think fails and I’ll have to pull the boards so it can run on DC. The FC Berk is just a Flyer level of detail engine and what it cost, I wish I never had bought it.
Give me detail, yes, but leave the Lionel electronics at home and save me around $500 on the purchase price. $1000 engines are out of my league anyway.
Tom Stoltz
in Maine
This might not be pertinent information for this discussion, but there seems to be a decent amount of S scale stuff (American Flyer/S-Scale Helper) on some of the auction sites I visit (Stout's, Cabin Fever). There are items up there now. I will admit I am unfamiliar with S scale.
Tom, first the Legacy Y3. The one you have is from the 2012 catalog and is not DC or DCC capable. However it can be upgraded by replacing the receiver board with a newer one from the U36, it is part #691RCDR133. Legacy engines run great on conventional AC. All the newer ones can operate on DC, but a number of functions are disabled. The Mikado is a TMCC engine from the 2005 to 2008 timeframe. They run on Legacy or AC conventional. Legacy is the name of the top end control system, engines with Legacy are always more detailed and more expensive than engines without Legacy.
I bought two FlyerChief steam engines, A Berk and a Northern. I had them both converted to TMCC/Railsounds. They run better and sound better.
For DC operation the AM engines are a great choice, especially with the half speed worm gear option.
The diesel smoke units do not usually fail, I have only had to replace one fan motor. The steam engine smoke units have about a 10%/year failure rate. The problem is almost always the motor shaft begins to squeal. As the noise gets worse the motor begins to slow down reducing smoke volume. The heater rarely fails if the smoke unit is kept wet with fluid.
The original Y3 IS capable of running on DC power, but not DCC. I run my Y3 on either DC or Legacy AC, but it is sometimes unpredictable on DC, as are the original SD70ACe locomotives. They sometimes fail to respond to move forward when DC current is supplied, but do not have trouble backing up. It may take a few attempts to get them going forward, but eventually they do. According to Jon Zahornacky, who was with Lionel at the release of the Y3:
"The Y3 will *not* be harmed by running on DC. Up to 24VDC - no problem. I believe the sound system has the code update in the Y3 to prevent straight DC (which can appear as a DC offset) from triggering the horn/bell. The balance of the electronics (Radio, Motor/Light/Smoke controllers) is capable of DC operation. I designed those boards and wrote all of the code; so I can guarantee DC is not a problem there.
I tried our Y3 loco in our lab today; and although it is a pre-production loco, it ran well on DC. I am still doing more testing to confirm the production product status capabilities.
The slow speed DC operation was very nice, sounds started up at about 8 VDC; and motion started at about 10 VDC. The downside is the voltage on a 12 VDC power system won't give you much top speed, but the loco can handle 18-20 VDC if your power system is capable of higher voltages."
Changing out the receiver board may make DC operation more reliable, but I have not done that yet.
Terry O'Kelly
@TOKELLY posted:The original Y3 IS capable of running on DC power, but not DCC. I run my Y3 on either DC or Legacy AC, but it is sometimes unpredictable on DC, as are the original SD70ACe locomotives. They sometimes fail to respond to move forward when DC current is supplied, but do not have trouble backing up. It may take a few attempts to get them going forward, but eventually they do. According to Jon Zahornacky, who was with Lionel at the release of the Y3:
"The Y3 will *not* be harmed by running on DC. Up to 24VDC - no problem. I believe the sound system has the code update in the Y3 to prevent straight DC (which can appear as a DC offset) from triggering the horn/bell. The balance of the electronics (Radio, Motor/Light/Smoke controllers) is capable of DC operation. I designed those boards and wrote all of the code; so I can guarantee DC is not a problem there.
I tried our Y3 loco in our lab today; and although it is a pre-production loco, it ran well on DC. I am still doing more testing to confirm the production product status capabilities.
The slow speed DC operation was very nice, sounds started up at about 8 VDC; and motion started at about 10 VDC. The downside is the voltage on a 12 VDC power system won't give you much top speed, but the loco can handle 18-20 VDC if your power system is capable of higher voltages."
Changing out the receiver board may make DC operation more reliable, but I have not done that yet.
Terry O'Kelly
Terry, that is very interesting what Jon Z writes here. My Y3 had to be sent to an authorized Lionel re-programing guy in the Boston area to do the DC thing. I actually believe it was the first such conversion of a Y3. My smoke never worked and I was told it wouldn’t. The motor and lights work, but what is the radio?
The gentleman who did the conversion was it constant contact with Jon Z. Jon was the person who said it would be possible so it was decided to try it on mine. I am flummoxed by what he told you. If it wasn’t such a job, I would get rid of the Lionel electronics so it could run DC like my other locos.
I do dream about going DCC, but I know it is not in my future and a layout keeps getting further away.
Tom Stoltz
in Maine
Thanks Terry, Jon would know. I have two first run Y3's and two latest run with the whistle steam. They all work fine on Legacy and on conventional AC. I do not have the old Y3 manual handy but a manual for a different Legacy engine states the smoke unit will not operate when powered by DC track voltage.
The main purpose of changing the receiver board is to enable DCC operation. Another operator has done this with the 2012 Y3 and second run U33c's from the 2012 catalog.
I dug out the Manual for the 2012 2-8-8-2 Y3. Unfortunately Jon's testing did not make the instructions.
From P.6, Conventional transformer Operations: Note! Power your locomotive with an alternating-current (50-60Hz AC) transformer only. Powering your locomotive with a direct-current (DC) transformer, or in excess of 19 volts AC, may result in damage to sensitive electronic components.
There is also this: Caution! Set the smoke unit switch to the Off position if you will be making multiple direction changes to prevent overheating the smoke unit.
FWIW... I helped John Z with Beta testing of DCC back in the day. I still have the device required to update and flash the electronics. In my opinion the problem always was that these engines are all compromised. He was trying to cover AC, DC, Legacy, and DCC capable electronics that would sometimes fight with the gearing and operational constraints of the engines. The DCC implementation was/is basic at best and lacks many features and CV settings that other DCC decoders have. The first run of U33c's were poor runners. He had the same issue with those that I have with the current Legacy Pacific - geared way too tall. But again, I don't think you are going to satisfy everyone so Lionel should just choose to be good at something. Remember the Scale hoppers with scale wheels and flyer couplers? Talk about missing the mark for both AF and Scale.
In my opinion I just don't think they understand S like the previous regime did. I think it's pure business now and the changes over the past 3-5 years in the world probably mean it is no longer financially viable. Sad.
PS. I emailed Lionel and have yet to receive a response. I'll share what I get from them.
I would love to see a Baltimore and Ohio and a Illinois Central streamlined passenger set.
To satisfy my own curiosity, I searched the OGF for ‘contains all of these words’, ‘Y3 Tom Stoltz’. What I found was interesting. First let me say that my Y3 conversion was indeed a Lionel experiment, a-work-around… the Y3 did not run on DC when mine was made. One thing I found to be incongruous was a reply from Jon Z. Look at the date on the post (from Jon) and the date in his signature…
SSantaFeFan OGR Forum Member
Tom,
What size capacitor are you using? I may be able to suggest a value in a week or so that may solve your concern.
However, given the environment and locos you are running; maybe a "gut" is in order. Was worth a try to see how the Y3 ran before you removed the electronics in the loco, and your feedback and efforts are appreciated!
jon
Lionel Engineering, retired Jan 1st, 2018
How is that??? I noticed Jon has several posts dated from 2013 with his being retired Jan 1st 2018.
My assessment of how my Y3 runs after the reprograming from 2/10/14:
My Y3 has been reprogrammed… Lionel has allowed a few people to be ‘reprogramers’ and they can make the machine responsive to DC. The Y3 still has sound, but the smoke is turned off. All the lights work. That said I am unhappy with its operation for several reasons. First is it does not run like the rest of my DC engines. I have to turn the throttle to mid-way to get anything out of it. I guess it takes a lot of power to run all the circuit boards that are still in it. It doesn’t seem to respond all that well and there is a lot of sporadic hesitation. Sometimes it just stops for no apparent reason. Every once in a while, I can’t get it to do anything. Yesterday I was playing with it and it stopped… it wouldn’t move forward or backwards, however the funny thing was it started to smoke – as in the smoke unit kicked in (I added fluid to keep that from burning out)… what was that all about?
that's my story FWIW,
Tom Stoltz
in Maine
I have run my Y3 with DC straight out of the box. As I mentioned, it does refuse to go forward at times, but will always respond to reverse current to go backwards. However, I now remember that the backup light is on when the locomotive is going forward but does work properly in the Legacy mode. My BNSF SD70Ace will also sometimes also fail to respond to move forward but not backward. Once it and the Y3 do respond to the forward DC current, they continue to work as intented. ES44ACs and a Legacy Berkshire have no problems.
Terry O'Kelly
