New passenger train ideas from Lionel

3rd Rail is offering SC-44 chargers in all the current paint schemes.   FP45s were being offered for a while, but there wasn't quite a much demand as anticipated.

Golden Gate Depot has done highly accurate versions of the 1951 Super Chief and the 1956 El Capitan cars.  The El Cap cars were run in Santa Fe and Amtrak.  Those sets will certainly rerun in the next two to three years.  They are currently offering Superliner I's in all paint schemes as well as the former El Cap transition coach converted to a crew-dorm car.

Atlas has offered the California Zephyr in the original CBQ/DRGW/WP scheme , Amtrak and Alaska Railroad.

Here's a passenger train idea for Lionel: produce some passenger cars shorter than the 21" ones! This for folks with more modest layouts (no doubt the majority) who don't have the large curves required for these large cars. And make them with paint to that matches the F7s you are producing (which can operate on 0-31 curves!).

Very good suggestion, Tom. Not everyone has the space for big curves and big cars.

@Dylan the Train Man posted:

Since they started making their 21" Passenger Cars, Lionel has been releasing a number of interesting named passenger trains with matching locomotives. However, there are a few trains that they have yet to make. There are also some passenger trains that I would like Lionel to make. Some are not possible for them to make at this time, since they don't have the tooling for the passenger cars or the engines at this time.

Here are a few of my ideas for trains with existing items (some new tooling for passenger cars needed):

-Santa Fe Super Chief (1950s-70s):

The Super Chief was one of the Santa Fe RR's most prestigious passenger trains. It ran from Chicago to Los Angeles. It was even featured in movies and was quite a luxurious train. Lionel has done the Super Chief many times before, but not with the 21" Passenger Cars. The new 21" Super Chief consist would include the following items:

-ATSF F7 A-A set, Powered B-Unit, and Superbass B-Unit in Red/Silver Warbonnet livery or 2 ATSF FP45s (if Lionel decides to make this engine)

-Stationsounds Diner

-Pleasure Dome

-WP/D&RGW/CB&Q California Zephyr:

-The California Zephyr (CZ) operated between Chicago and the San Francisco Bay Area until 1971. Amtrak currently runs the train with Superliners. A Lionel CZ consist would include the following items:

-WP F7 A-B Set (both powered) and Superbass B-Unit (WP used A-B-B sets of F-Units to pull the CZ).

-D&RGW Alco PA-1 A-B-A Set (Powered A-Units; Superbass B-Unit)

-CB&Q F7 A-B-A Set (Powered A-Units; Superbass B-Unit)

-Dome Cars

-Stationsounds Diner

-Dome Observation

-Santa Fe El Capitan:

-The Santa Fe El Capitan was an all-coach passenger train run on the same route as the Super Chief. The train used hi-level coaches that were the inspiration for Amtrak's Superliner Cars. In 1958, the Super Chief and El Capitan were combined. A Lionel El Capitan consist would include the following items:

-Same locos as Super Chief consist

-Transition Baggage-Dormitory Car

-Hi-Level Coaches, Lounge, and Stationsounds Diner

-Passenger Trains I want made by Lionel:

-Brightline train with Vision Line Siemens SCB-40 Chargers (Front unit powered; rear unit with Stationsounds) and 4-7 Siemens Venture Coaches (all new tooling needed for this train); multiple trains made, each with different colors like the prototype

-Amtrak Pacific Surfliner with SC44 Charger (Vision Line) and Surfliner cars (former K-Line tooling or new tooling)

-New Amtrak Superliners; Stationsounds Diners to be sold with announcements for different trains

-Amtrak Avelia Liberty Set (Vision Line)

-Nevada Southern Museum Passenger Train with UP GP30 #844, Generator Boxcar with sounds, 4 passenger cars (including diner, open air car, and 2 coaches, and caboose; additional cars sold separately

-Cass Scenic RR Train with Shay and passenger cars; Heisler and Climax sold separately; additional passenger cars and other Cass rolling stock sold separately, too

-Modern Grand Canyon RR train with F40FH and 4-5 passenger cars; additional cars, Stationsounds Diner, and extra F40FH sold separately; Steam locos, GP7u, and FPA4s to be sold as well

If anyone has any other great ideas for new passenger trains they would like Lionel to make in the future, let me know in the comments.

I second the motion on the scale Amtrak stuff. Lionel already has beautiful scale toolings of the Amtrak Superliner cars that old Lionel (Chesterfield, MI) did the older paint schemes in but never the always in demand Phase V. Even the older paint schemes go for a fortune when they surface on eBay. Who knows what the current iteration of Lionel (an LLC in Concord, NC) has done with that beautiful tooling set!

--Nick N.

Raleigh, NC

@GG1 4877 posted:

3rd Rail is offering SC-44 chargers in all the current paint schemes.   FP45s were being offered for a while, but there wasn't quite a much demand as anticipated.

Golden Gate Depot has done highly accurate versions of the 1951 Super Chief and the 1956 El Capitan cars.  The El Cap cars were run in Santa Fe and Amtrak.  Those sets will certainly rerun in the next two to three years.  They are currently offering Superliner I's in all paint schemes as well as the former El Cap transition coach converted to a crew-dorm car.

Atlas has offered the California Zephyr in the original CBQ/DRGW/WP scheme , Amtrak and Alaska Railroad.

I'm on pins and needles that Scott & Co. attaches a second run of the Viewliner cars to the run of Superliner cars!

--Nick N.

Raleigh, NC

I'll vote for the 18" cars as well. I'd like to see Lionel do a Rocky Mountaineer set. I missed out on the MTH one. I'd be interested in a VIA  Canadian set, with the correct domed observation car.  Also, a VIA Charger/Venture set.

Rob

I m in for the 18 inch cars, ABS or Aluminum Cars….also re start putting in passengers in these cars….

@robmcc posted:

I'll vote for the 18" cars as well. I'd like to see Lionel do a Rocky Mountaineer set. I missed out on the MTH one. I'd be interested in a VIA  Canadian set, with the correct domed observation car.  Also, a VIA Charger/Venture set.

Rob

If the locomotives and cars are available in some other road name, get them and send to Christine Braden. She's done multiple RM sets using the Atlas O scale cars as donors and appropriate power units, and results are spectacular.

@robmcc posted:

I'll vote for the 18" cars as well. I'd like to see Lionel do a Rocky Mountaineer set. I missed out on the MTH one. I'd be interested in a VIA  Canadian set, with the correct domed observation car.  Also, a VIA Charger/Venture set.

Rob

I'd like to see additional cars for my Canadian.  I have 8 cars, but when I rode it, it was 20 cars long.  Not an 18" car, but the correct Park observation for the Canadian.  Photos taken by me.

Unfortunately, it's not the current scheme as VIA rebuilt the Park and Chateau cars the same year the models were finally delivered.

A Rocky Mountaineer would be pretty fun too.  If Lionel did it correctly, I would consider purchasing that set.  A lot of new tooling though so I'm not sure how feasible it is.  Those GMD GP40-2 wide cabs are pretty cool.  Lionel has the tooling for the generator car and the kitchen car is a pretty generic smooth side car.  The Silverleaf and the Goldleaf cars would be a little more of a challenge.

@breezinup posted:

Here's a passenger train idea for Lionel: produce some passenger cars shorter than the 21" ones! This for folks with more modest layouts (no doubt the majority) who don't have the large curves required for these large cars. And make them with paint to that matches the F7s you are producing (which can operate on 0-31 curves!).

I agree with the shorter passenger cars. They need to include all the cool features from the 21" cars but in a smaller size. The smaller cars would be less expensive, too.

A little more niche, but on the Canadian side the "Northlander" (of Ontario Northland Railway fame) had a very unique train consist of 4 former "Trans Europ Express" (TEE) sets.  A rather attractive train of yellow, and some bold blues from 1977-1984.  There are some plans to apparently relaunch the service but not sure how that's going...

https://www.american-rails.com/ont.html

(barring that, a VIA rail set would be at the top of my to get list)

@Dylan the Train Man posted:

I agree with the shorter passenger cars. They need to include all the cool features from the 21" cars but in a smaller size. The smaller cars would be less expensive, too.

Shorter cars are not less expensive.  The tooling investment is the same regardless of car size.  What makes cars more or less expensive is the number of cars one can sell and the number and types of tools required to build any one style of car.  Plastic cars require the largest upfront investment in tooling, so they need to be sold in larger quantities.  Aluminum requires less tooling but is more expensive per car.  The manufacturer doesn't have to sell nearlyl as many to recoup that tooling cost.  Brass has very little tooling costs as most of a brass model is hand built.  That is why brass has the highest cost per car. 

Since the Lionel plastic cars are currently tooled for 21" lengths, in order for Lionel to make a profit on their investment in those tools they need to run cars with the same generic styles as much as they can.  It's simple economics.  Personally, I have several of the 21" Lionel cars and I really like them for what they are.  However, they rarely will match a specific prototype in many cases the way an aluminum or brass car can. 

That is unfortunately the case, Jonathan. I have a Rapido  RM Gold Leaf  car that my wife bought me as a birthday present/souvenir from our trip.  It looks great, but of course it's HO.  With it's uniqueness I highly doubt we would see it in O. (Maybe you would plant the seed in Scott's head...) Back to 18" cars, since K-Line produced them, wouldn't Lionel have that tooling?

Rob

@laz1957 posted:

I m in for the 18 inch cars, ABS or Aluminum Cars….also re start putting in passengers in these cars….

I wish I could give more than 1 thumbs up to this post. I would buy a set on the first day and happily endure the week-long grief I’d get from the boss.

I just recently saw the 18" Monon cars that MTH released, both the Madison AND streamliners, in black with what looks like a beige stripe; liking those, and now for a REAL head-scratcher:  How about a Lionel Legacy Phantom set with longer cars and some space-age sounds and lights??  Anyone...cheese stands alone?

I'd like to see a "Red Rocket Express" as seen in Holiday Affair movie.

Via Rail , and GO Transit commuter trains! Both very colorful! JohnA

Illinois Central City of New Orleans, Panama Limited, and City of Miami.

Scale MARC bi-level cars, please.  Heck, I'd even take scale MARC single-level coaches.

@GG1 4877 posted:

3rd Rail is offering SC-44 chargers in all the current paint schemes.   FP45s were being offered for a while, but there wasn't quite a much demand as anticipated.

Golden Gate Depot has done highly accurate versions of the 1951 Super Chief and the 1956 El Capitan cars.  The El Cap cars were run in Santa Fe and Amtrak.  Those sets will certainly rerun in the next two to three years.  They are currently offering Superliner I's in all paint schemes as well as the former El Cap transition coach converted to a crew-dorm car.

Atlas has offered the California Zephyr in the original CBQ/DRGW/WP scheme , Amtrak and Alaska Railroad.

Is there any chance of getting Superliner II's? I'd really like the arcade and business class cars for a Coast Starlight, but I think they're Superliner II.

I agree with the guys above (read this Dave from Lionel) that although we love the 21' pass cars... most of us need that same car in 18" to run around the layout.  But make them nice and with passengers!  You would break the internet if you made some Visionline quality pass cars but just chopped out the middle 3" so they could run on the average layout.   Don't just do an average car that's only 12" or 13" without passengers and say, that's it for the non 21" field.  Those 18 woodsides and heavyweights are great, we just need 18" in streamlines.

Any chance we can get Lionchief baby Madison's in Southern (solid green, not the two tone)?

Maybe Lionel has done these,  not sure but green steam era NYC heavyweights able to run 042 curves as can the 1-700e from 1990, but with the detail level to match the beautiful 700e Hudson.  As much as I wish for 054 or bigger curves, my tiny room and layout cannot support them.  But a short consist of heavyweights to model trains like the Twilight Limited that ran from Detroit to Chicago would be really nice.  If they have done cars able to do this, that are not starter set level details, please post the model numbers.

Monon red/grey F3 AA set with matching coaches(correct ones, not generic heavyweights).  I know MTH has done it.  I am not a mth person and good luck finding a set! 

East Jorden & Southern, little branch line that ran a mixed train with a beautiful 2-6-0 with a wood side combine bringing up the rear.  Would make a nice boxed set, a couple typical 1930's freight cars, combine and the nice 2-6-0.  Both the combine and the 2-6-0 are preserved so easy for Lionel to get pics and dimensions of the prototypes.  Color video footage from the final years of the engine being used also exist. 

Other NYC consists besides the 20th Century, such as the Twilight Limited, The knickerbocker, James Whitcomb Riley ect.  They even ran passenger specials to the Indianapolis 500 race with coaches and steam/GP9 diesels.   

I thought Lionel did proper WP/CBQ CZ coaches and Santa Fe Super Chief coaches, its finding them thats a challenge.  And you need several B units, just not one.  But lets make it so the sound is piped to speakers in each unit and it sounds like 3, 4, 5 or more units.  A single unit sound, is odd, when your looking at 3 or more F units throttling up.  And for the CBQ, an O5 4-8-4 with Mars light for a steam era CZ train, same for a WP steamer.  We have the diesels out there, F3, E5 ect.   

Last on my wish list is a box set I would like to see Lionel offer, a single CBQ E5 9911 Silver Pilot with proper polished finish, and the matching Nebraska Zephyr consist she pulls in preservation at IRM.  That set would be a hot seller IMHO, probably a quick sellout.  AD

@breezinup posted:

Here's a passenger train idea for Lionel: produce some passenger cars shorter than the 21" ones! This for folks with more modest layouts (no doubt the majority) who don't have the large curves required for these large cars. And make them with paint to that matches the F7s you are producing (which can operate on 0-31 curves!).

This has been one of my pet peeves with Lionel. For the past several years they have been making detailed BTO locomotives that will run down as low as O-36 or even O-31 curves for those with smaller layouts (for which I applaud them) and they simultaneously produce matching passenger cars a page or two further ahead in the same catalogue that require O-54 or larger curves to operate.

I can understand why operators with larger layouts would want the larger passenger cars but, if you're going to manufacture and offer for sale a matching passenger car set to go with a new engine that you can run on an O-36 layout, why not at least make a similar matching passenger car set in a size that will run on the same layout as the locomotives ?

Seems like Lionel is missing out - I know I have passed on a few engines in the past couple of years, simply because I couldn't get the matching passenger cars in the same size package.

I like the OP's post talking about Lionel making the Brightline.  Lionel needs to keep up with times in passenger railroads.  Other than the Acela, Lionel has no high-speed engines or sets.  Brightline would be a great start and they could use the molds for several different engines that different railroads are using.

My fantasy is that Lionel will make the TGV.  I waited for years for MTH to make it since they were making European models, but they never did. 

While my layout will have a minimum of O-72 curves so I can run the 21" passenger cars, I would prefer to see Lionel focus on 18" cars.  I have many, many 18" passenger cars.  I believe the only 21" passenger cars I have are the Acela cars.

While I am on my soapbox about passenger trains, I was SO disappointed that Lionel only acquired the MTH molds for the Railking Genesis.  I would like a Legacy Genesis, but Atlas has the scale molds and they are committed to DCS.

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I will echo some of the comments above.  I always preferred the 18” passenger cars as I never had the real estate to run the scale 21” beauties.  I think MTH did a great job selectively compressing the 18” cars so that they still look good behind nearly any locomotive and don’t have a ridiculous overhang on a curve.  And I have also passed on locomotives as there were no cars offered to run with them.  At least Atlas O has the MTH Premier tooling for the passenger cars and I look forward to them offering more road names in the future.  

I agree with Jim.  I have never owned a 21" car because they just seem so out-of-scale to me.  With my new layout, I have planned to have the widest curves possible but most of the curves are Ross 088s and 096s.  My bodies of my 18" passenger cars don't start covering the outer rail until they travel upon 104 curves!  I can't even imagine what curve it would take for that to happen with a 21". But I am sure it would be comparable to a postwar aluminum passenger car swinging over an 0-31 curve!

I am also not a fan of the really long modern freight cars for the same reason. 

I go with the motto: "Less is More!"

I agree that 18" cars from Lionel is a great idea.  Then I won't have any interest in buying them which will make my marriage even better!

In all seriousness, the current 21" car tooling needs to be amortized properly to pay for the upfront investment costs.  That is a fact with plastic tooling.  It takes a lot of cars to see any real profit on them.  If we truly value the manufacturers in our chosen scale, we need to understand the basic realities of the marketplace.

Having grown up watching the western fleet of passenger cars serving commuters on the Jersey Shore up into the 1980's, I can't unsee the fact that 18" cars are too short aside from the head end cars which varied greatly in length.  I had the same issue with Athearn HO passenger cars when I got my first scale length Rivarossi ones at age 12.

I have been pleased with the 21" Lionel streamlined passenger cars even if they are mostly generic cars because they fill in my more specific passenger pool fleet at a lower price point.  I just wish I could get a diner without station sounds to fill out a few trains of mine.  I have an ATSF streamlined Lionel 21" diner without station sounds that looks great with my mixed 20" heavyweight and 21" streamlined cars behind my 3rd Rail E1s.  It's all a fantasy train, but one I enjoy operating when I get the chance.

It's 21" for me.

The problem I have with 18" passenger cars is that they look wrong behind the scale engines. It's less noticeable with the heavyweights, because the steamers are so large, but it always annoys me with diesels.

Very few people have the depot space and passing sidings capable of handling a 16 foot passenger train, which is about the minimum length a post WW2 first class passenger train is likely to be in O.  To operate post WW2 passenger trains on most model railroads without looking ridiculous, the number of locos needs to be reduced, the number of cars need to be reduced, the length of the cars needs to be reduced, smaller prototype trains need to be modeled, and most likely a combination of the above.  Then there is the question of fidelity to the prototype.  If you care enough to model a full consist of full length passenger cars, why would you settle for generic cars with your favorite road name slapped on them?    The market for the 4 car plastic passenger set with the two car add on is 18", not 21".  If you care enough to have full length cars you also would care enough to have the correct combination of head end cars, coaches, sleepers, diners and lounge cars.  That means the marketing mix needs to be changed for each road.  Jonathan the logic behind a major manufacturer producing post WW2 21" passenger cars in plastic escapes me.  Either they should be done in aluminum if possible, or they should be left to someone like 3rd Rail who is committed to doing them right.

I would love to see a scale modern BNSF executive business train led by a ES44AC. I believe that they have all the cars, even if they may not be 100% accurate.

@Bill N posted:

Jonathan the logic behind a major manufacturer producing post WW2 21" passenger cars in plastic escapes me.  Either they should be done in aluminum if possible, or they should be left to someone like 3rd Rail who is committed to doing them right.

I'm not qualified to discuss the logic of Lionel's marketing department and their decision to do plastic tooling for 21" cars.  Reality is Lionel invested in this tooling and as a result, they need to run as many cars using it as possible to be able to make a reasonable profit from their investment. 

@Bill N,

In general I agree with you, especially in regards to the use of aluminum.  If they produced a set of Santa Fe's in aluminum WITH seats (I'll be happy to add my own passengers), I'd probably buy two 4-packs.

@GG1 4877,

I understand what you're saying, but the old saying 'Throwing good money after bad' comes to mind.  At my former company the corner office guys demanded I adapt the software of a company  we bought to have it run 'seamlessly' with ours, using the phrase 'We paid a lot of money for that company and we're going to use everything we can'.  The software was not the reason we bought the company, but the corner guys viewed it as a bonus addition.  After 4 years with thousands of man hours put into the effort, the software fit into our system like a square peg in a round hole.

I have 21" GGD cars and some 18" K-Line cars.  Visible mainline curves are 104 and 112 diameter.  The 18" cars just look better rounding those curves.  I suspect that the potential market for quality 18" cars is much larger than for 21" model, given that most folks don't have 96"+ diameter curves.

I'd like to see the 1936 Twin Cities Zephyr, later the Nebraska Zephyr.  One of the trainsets is preserved at the Illinois Railway Museum.

There's enough interest in the train to sell at least 200 of them.

There's a "passenger car problem".  The options for new passenger cars are

• 48' cars (size of a Chicago L car).
• 72' (18") cars.
• Full scale (21") cars.

The 48' cars are too small; the other cars are too long for the typical layout with 15" (031), 18" (036) and 21" (042) curves.  The ideal cars for the typical layout are the 64' (16")  extruded aluminum cars - Lionel postwar style and clones.

Extruded aluminum cars can be customized with different window arrangements since the windows are punched.  You can letter the car with strips like the Canadian Pacific cars.

One thing to consider is that MTH saturated the market with nice quality 18" cars in smooth and fluted configurations for nearly 25 years.  They can be had for very affordable prices.  Perhaps the marketing department at Lionel recognizes this as well?

Golden Gate Depot offered 18" versions of various famous name trains including the Broadway Limited and the 1951 Super Chief in aluminum that were going to as faithful to the prototype as possible in a shorter size.  Many asked for such sets on the pages of this forum, but the orders never materialized and the sets were cancelled. 

However, I also understand we all have different interests and there is no right answer to how long a passenger car should be in O gauge.  Individual preferences will always vary.  I have close to 250 21" / 20" streamlined and heavyweight passenger cars from many manufacturers as that is what interests me the most. 40' long trains snaking around my club layout are always a source of great enjoyment.

Back to topic of new trains and since we are all dreaming, I'd enjoy a scale Budd Keystone train set.  That would look great behind my Vision line or JLC GG1