New technology

This is indeed interesting. I had been looking at the CVP AirWire system when I was considering building a layout outdoors.

Very impressive.

Wow... just think if you can recharge the batteries from the track we'd never have to power frogs or worry about reversing loops or wyes. Roundhouses and turntables would be a breeze. Just power your mainlines and run off of battery everywhere else. Sign me up.

Since it works with DCC decoders can one with sound be used? If it can I wonder if it would work with PS3 since it has a DCC decoder built in? That would be cool. I would probably go for it then. I just like the sound alot.

I don't know but I would assume the sound decoders would work fine. I received the link from a mate of mine and the You Tube link really makes it look good.

No matter what, it is just a question of a short period of time before this stuff will do anything you want. Small batteries are obviously getting better and smaller by the week. The rest of the technology is already there. Now the center rail really will be for show only. LEDs will take over interior lighting, and I am sure a short powered section of track will work as a charger- my MTH Hudson already charges itself on my 2- rail track when I let it sit.

Ralph,

It looks like the power for the module in the loco comes from the battery. It also looks like the battery is powering the wireless receiver in the loco. From there there is an interface that takes the DCC commands and sends them to the receiver. So the key is the interface between the DCC command station and the wireless receiver in the loco. It transmits the actions sent from the throttle to the command station through it's interface to the receiver.

The interface would have to be able to accept the DCS commands from the TIU and send them to the receiver in the loco. Most certainly this can power a sound decoder as well.

This is very much like RailPro with Direct Radio, but the big advantage I see using standard DCC decoders vs a proprietary module in the loco.



posted by Ralph4014:
Since it works with DCC decoders can one with sound be used? If it can I wonder if it would work with PS3 since it has a DCC decoder built in? That would be cool. I would probably go for it then. I just like the sound alot.[/QUOTE]

It would be fun to get one and give it a try. Maybe I should email them and ask them about it.

Hello ,
Just to let you know , I have the Lionel TMCC running off battery power I have 2 rail diesels that Atlas brought out with TMCC and a good friend of mine a retired
NASA engineer , designed and built a circuit board to interface with batteries and TMCC , over 2 years ago . For a twin motored diesel smoke unit off , you get almost 2 hrs running time before needing recharge .
The batteries are in a boxcar tethered to the loco.
To make this viable for O scale you really need much more advanced batteries that are being developed now. Run time does go down when pulling a 40 car train and 2 locomotives .

Bernie

Sorry but from what I've heard is that Airwires signals aren't exactly the same signals as NMRA DCC signals/protocol.

I do think that track power is quickly becoming a thing of the past and with the advancements in battery power I feel that in the next few years it will be the new hit thing. Just think you will have a battery gauge that can be reflective of a locomotives fuel level: when it gets low...head to the fueling racks and recharge on a powered section of track now that is a cool idea! Shorts, stalls, jitters, and sparks will all be relieved and no need for confusing wiring diagrams! I honestly think that this will be spectacular!

The batteries do not need to be all that large if you still have track power in all the easy places just to keep the battery charged. Think of the battery as a huge capacitor to get you across switches and reverse loops and other not easy places.

Richard

I tend to work on my railroad more than actually operating the trains, so limited battery time probably wouldn't be much of a hardship. I definitely do not want to have a car full of equipment tethered to the locomotive either...it will have to fit in the tender or a diesel hood or I'm not interested. Throttle responce must be a smooth as current DCC system equipment...no jack rabbit starts and stops tolerated. Recharging via a power track is important, since a disassembly to access a battery is breakage prone sooner or later. Finally, the system will have to be realisticly priced and factory suppored. Then maybe I'd be a buyer.

Bob

quote:

Originally posted by Scratchbuilder1-48:
Hello ,
Just to let you know , I have the Lionel TMCC running off battery power I have 2 rail diesels that Atlas brought out with TMCC and a good friend of mine a retired
NASA engineer , designed and built a circuit board to interface with batteries and TMCC , over 2 years ago . For a twin motored diesel smoke unit off , you get almost 2 hrs running time before needing recharge .
The batteries are in a boxcar tethered to the loco.
To make this viable for O scale you really need much more advanced batteries that are being developed now. Run time does go down when pulling a 40 car train and 2 locomotives .

Bernie

Sorry, but I disagree. I can easily fit over 10AH packs into a boxcar. That is 2 amps for 5 hours or 5 amps for 2 hours. That is plenty IMHO.

This is great but there is one major problem....

 

I run LiPo (lithium Polymer) batteries in RC racing.  This is an EXTREMELY powerful technology, but not without it's hurdles.

 

Charge: LiPo can be extremely dangerous.  If a pack is overcharged or damaged/punctured, you can expect a rocket-powered fiery explosion from the pack.  Youtube has a zillon videos of lipo fires.  Lipo requires advanced charging tequniques that vary both voltage and current to keep the individual cells within each pack (from 2 to 6 cells inside) from going higher than 4.2v.  This means computer charging one pack at a time.   If you were expecting to charge your packs directly from the track, each locomotive or car containing it's own pack would have to have it's own computer charger on board.  This is not at all what these guys are selling.

 

Discharge: lipo cannot be discharged below 3.0v per cell (6v for a 2cell) without being irreparably damaged.  Because of this, your device must also contain proper voltage cutoff equipment inside.  Esentially your train would shut off once the pack voltage dips so far.

 

Runtime:  Your runtime is directly proportionate to the milliamps within the battery. The smaller the battery, the lower the capacity.  They are not making huge leaps and bounds monthly in capacity some would suggest.  A 500mah pack is going to be the same size no matter what brand you buy.  The leaps and bounds come in the form of available amperage.  That is newer lipo battery packs are capable of discharging their capacity much MUCH quicker than older ones.  This is usefull in racing, but not for running model trains.

 

Charge Time: For LiPo batteries, the industry standard is a 1 hour charge time also refered to as 1C charge rate.  That means that if you have a 500mah (.5amp) battery, the highest charge rate you are capable of is .5amps without damaging or shortening the life of your pack.  This means the battery should take ~1 hour to fully charge (from fully empty).  If you have a 5000mah lipo, you can charge it at 5 amps and it still takes 1 hour.  The problems begin when your running multiple units and each one has a 5000mah pack.  That means 1 hour per pack.  So your either buying a bunch of computer chargers (at $50-$100 each), or your gonna be running your trains one at a time.  There are currently a few chargers on the market capable of up to 10amps, which can charge two 5000mah packs simultaniously, but expect to spend about $200 on one of them (so price is relative to power).  All these numbers relate to 7.4v (2-cell) lipo charging.  If you were to run 3-cell lipo, you would loose 33% of your power rating (10amp charger becomes a 6.6amp charger.

 

Storage: Lipo packs require special storage techniques.  Most people recommend placing them inside an amo-box or fireproof lipo-sack to protect from fire damage should they go bad and swell in storage.  2nd, the cells respond best to being stored at a ~40% charge status for long durations (a couple weeks to a year).  If voltage is too low, it could dip over time below the safe threshold and be ruined (or burst if charged). If it's stored too full, you will actually loose some capacity permanently and runtime suffers.  Most good computer chargers now have a lipo storage mode that brings voltage exactly to the 40% level.

 

Heat: Lipos are easily damaged by heat.  My friend destroyed his entire stock of lipos by leaving them in his trunk for less than hour.  Each pack had swollen which could yield an explosion during the next use.  All packs had to be soaked in salt water bucket for a weak to neutralize the chemistry.  Then they are safe to throw in the trash.

You boys  are talking batteries, as if  there is only one type.  Quoting all sorts of  times running  ,amperes drawn etc.

 

Just what type of battery are you talking about??  That would help those  who want to learn, have  good solid info

 

Ed cReutling

Well so much for the hope and change!

Wow, there is a guy in the local group who has been doing quite well running AirWire for several years now, albeit without DCC yet. I'll run and tell him to stop what he's doing immediately, and ice down his trains and pour salt water on them.

 

Last I heard he was looking forward to the DCC setup.

I know your being sarcastic, but I was stating the proper way to dispose of a lipo battery with minimal risk of fire.  Lipo doesn't not generate much heat if used within it's specified continuous-amp range.

 

This is a nearby transmitter that was damaged due to a lipo charging fire on a work-bench:

 

 

Lipo fire in peoples trucks at the track:

 

 

Not trying to scare everyone, just saying this technology requires a bit of understanding.  It is still the way of the future.

SB,

 

S___ happens every day, especially if one disregards the proper operating  instructions.

 

I have  learned the hard way----  researched, googled, wrote to   manufacturers, and put together  the  control electronics, using LiPo battery.   Ruined by  letting it  over discharge.  Bought the proper  lo-voltage regulator, and  have been having  the time of my life   running  my trains.

 

I wouldn't trade the system for  any other.

 

I've run trains   on  power from a  12v car battery and  wire wound to   DCC to  self contained R/C.  What I am using today  is to me,  is none better

 

Ed Reutling

I too race RC cars and while it sounds like scare tactics, the concerns are real. It's not to say that you will have a problem but you need to be aware that there are things to be concerned with. If you think lipo batteries get used until they are fully dead, you'll get 1 run out of them. It is imperative that they don't go below a certain voltage. Keep in mind that the time it takes them to get to that voltage is far longer than other battery types going dead so runtime is very good with them.

 

If you want to charge them with a charger hooked up to the track such as in a roundhouse stall, you'd be best to use the same capacity battery for each engine so that you don't have different charge times. You should also use a charger for each track if you want to charge more than one engine at a time. You can not have a charger just hooked to each track and then have any random number of engines sitting within those tracks and expect it to charge. It won't work. If time is a concern between charges then keep a battery on a charger and then swap batteries out rather than waiting for them to charge while in the engine.

 

If you think you can treat lipo batteries the same as nicads or nimh batteries, think again. In the rc car world the current technology items that are made to be used with lipos have voltage cutoff limits built in but are capable of being disabled if one is running older battery technology. If someone is running older electronics that don't have lipo cutoff but want to run lipo batteries then they at least need some sort of audible low voltage so they will know when to stop running. I would hope that any new rc technology aimed at the model railroad world that is aimed at using lipo batteries would already have some sort of low voltage cutoff protection in place.

 

You don't want a lipo sitting fully charged so unless you are running your engines constantly (within every couple of weeks), you'll want them at storage voltage. This all may sound scary but it's not that bad and I'm sure the companies releasing products for use with lipos will try to take the guesswork out of things. You just have to know what to be aware of. SB isn't pulling your leg or trying to scare you. He's educating those who don't know. These aren't nicads.

I am going out to take the batteries out of my RC ship transmitter to be sure. I have been charging them outside the transmitter but I think taking them out while I await good sailing weather is a good plan.

 

I am not using LiPo batteries in the ship itself, that is powered by two 6v exit signs. I do have a pair of LiPo batteries that are used to fire the guns but I don't keep that in the ship at all.

 

Like I said--so much for hope and change. The best laid plans of mice and men--sometimes goes off the tracks.....well my rendition they are on tracks.

I just have to say that once you go with lipo there is really NO turning back.  Even though they can be a bit more scary for average user, the benefits really far FAR FARRRRR outweigh the concerns.  They are almost half the weight of nickle and far more milliamps by volume.  Plus they don't crap out after 1 month of heavy use like modern nickle packs.  Plus they won't go dead if you store them for a month or two like Nimh.

 

As for runtime, mah ratings of one type of batter are easily comparable to another. A good condition Nimh or Nicad will have the same runtime as a good condition lipo with the same mah rating.  The difference comes when you put a huge load on the battery.  Lipo can out "amp" any other battery and maintain it's voltage under these loads.  Some are rated as high as 90C continuous discharge now.  That means you could theoretically sustain a 450amp load on a 5000mah battery and it will not only survive, but maintain at least 80-90% of it's capacity.  These numbers are absolutely insane as there is simply no way to test such a load.  Also expect to pay out the nose for such a rating (over $100 for 5000mah 7.4v pack).  But top-of-the-line competition lipos are generally about $100-$150.  It would be nice if it would drive down the cost of the older quality stuff a little more than it actually does.

 

http://www.google.com/search?um=1&hl=en&rlz=1C1GGGE_enUS436US436&q=orion%2090c%20lipo&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=2706l3558l0l3766l6l6l0l0l0l1l121l411l5.1l6l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&biw=1499&bih=895&ie=UTF-8&tbo=u&tbm=shop&source=og&sa=N&tab=if&ei=3NopT7-YA6jniAKMwKm6Cg

Once I went to lipos in rc cars, I wondered why I didn't switch sooner. They are night and day better. Lipos don't scare me. The thing people just need to realize is that they aren't nicads and don't charge the same way. If you want a charging track then you can't just have it setup like an old nicad trickle charger that always sends a small amount of voltage to the track. You will have to start the charger on your own by pushing a button which is no big deal. Going to model railroad radio control using lipo batteries is easily feasible and shouldn't be scary. Just understand how they are different from nicads and you'll be fine.

Yea, I was joking around. There is good info here all the way around.

After a night of operation I have 20+ locomotives (make that 60+ when all are DCC'd)  spread around the railroad in engine terminals, arrival departure tracks, and hidden stagging tracks.  Some have made several runs, others not called for duty.  For modelers with a large number of locomotives I don't see how one would managing the recharging operation unless it employed distributed intelligence combined with recharging from the rails.  I don't doubt that today's batteries have advanced to the degree that they can deliver the power and duration required for typical model railroad operation.  However for those with more than a few locomotives, the battery recharging process will need to be made hands off, simple, and safe for battery powered locomotives to be an attractive alternative. 

 

Ed Rappe    

This is exactly the reason why I mentioned each individual unit will have to have it's own computerized charger built into it.  It's not extremely difficult to do as DC chargers can be made very small.  It's the AC chargers that must have a built-in DC power supply that are a bit larger.

 

I've seen some DC lipo chargers about the size of an I-Phone (but thicker).  I'm sure it can be done (especially inside a box car).  I'm also sure it will be costly.