new vibrating engine feature

it would not be scale.

they might be some fun at train shows.

 

..."Hey, why are all my pictures blurry!?"

Lionel thought that the vibration idea was good enough to install in their Legacy controllers.  Seems like most on this forum don't care for that feature.  

 

I still can't think of what I would want to be loose on a diesel that could visibly shake, other than perhaps an open door.

 

When a loco goes by in 1:1, its not the engine body that shakes visibly so much as the air and the ground.  Replicating that effect with a big subwoofer would bring complaints from the wife, and vibrate the whole house.   

In my opinion, a mistake from the get-go.

Allan,

 

Is what your getting at, using that little animated face with rolling eyes, vibration: are the eyes supposed to indicate shaking or movement?

 

I just knew you'd be on board. You must of had a sleepless night... thinking about all the great possibilities: covers, articles... a real shot in the arm, for the hobby.

 

Re: the vibration

 

Mass in motion creates force or forces; and, constantly changing that mass's motion(speed) and direction, changes forces being generated.

 

Internal combustion engines, like a diesel engine, have many moving part, that vary in size,shape and weight. When a diesel engine is running, those numerous parts are moving in various direction. The individual engine components, the moving mass, is generating multiple direction of forces; that, because they are attached together... their individual forces end up fighting one another... creating vibration/shaking/movement.

 

The faster the components move, the greater the forces being generated...

 

Add to the equation, another factor: the quality of the engine component connections, i. e. how well/tightly everything fits together. If the the joints/connections are less than perfect and multiple component forces are fighting one another, during the engines operation; then, I'm guessing there will be varying degrees of vibrations, present...

 

 

I would think that most internal combustion engines are mounted using some form of damper/cushioning, to minimize the effects of vibration.

 

 

Rick

Another case of this "hobbyist" not know what goes on inside the engine room of a real diesel electric locomotive!

 

And, NO,,,,,the prime movers are NOT "mounted using some damper/cushioning, to minimize the effects of vibration." The prime movers are mounted on precision machined heavy steel pads, and the four mounting feet of the EMD engine are multi-bolted AND doweled to those pads, in order to maintaing rotational alignment with the main generator.

 

Both EMD and GE engines have counter balanced crankshafts, and very precision counter weights on the camshaft and accessory drive gear trains.

The vibration one feels of a train going by is the result of mass in motion.

 

The same effect can be felt by placing your fingers near the track of even an N scale train going by, although to a much lesser degree.

 

So, the effect is already present on all model trains, and at no extra cost.

 

Of course, if anyone wants to pay this free effect, I'm sure the manufacturers would be happy to oblige...

 

Rusty

I just conducted a simple test with my wife's help: I lifted the hood and asked my wife turn start my truck; I watched the motor for signs of movement - when idling a fairly constant noticeable degree of motion was detected; and, when my wife hit the accelerator a marked increase was observed; same, for my wife's newer car.

 

Even though they are gas powered engines, they still have moving parts similar to other internal combustion engines.

 

That's all I was looking to replicate, with my vibrating(moving ) engine suggestion. A gentle shimmy when idling properly with a noticeable corresponding increase in detectable movement, during acceleration.

 

I thought it was a pretty simple concept, to grasp.

 

That's got nothing to do with a train moving... the locomotive just has to be turned on.

 

 

Hot,

 

not long ago, I read somewhere about one of the manufacturers isolating it's prime mover, with some type of bushings...

 

 

If they(the manufacturers of real equipment) aren't interrupting the vibrations produced by an operating prime mover; maybe, they should be. Having a "hard" connection, as you implied, would wear on numerous locomotive components being exposed to the vibration. A soft connection might be a prudent alternative.

 

The big 6000hp engines, that first appeared in the mid 90's; probably, had significant opposing forces to contend with... resulting in stress related issues.

 

The next time you're going to be around an operating prime move, check it out for us; maybe, film a glass of water sitting on it... moving through it's power range?

 

 

Rick

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Rick, if you ever get the opportunity, pop the hood on a big rig truck that has a Detroit 8V-72-T engine. You would be surprised at how smooth that engine idles. The only noticeable engine movement is when you give it some throttle and the rotational mass and tremendous torque actually twists the truck chassis slightly. The 8V-72-T engine functions similar to an EMD engine in that they are both 2-stroke Diesel engines. The Detroit engine idles at about 500 rpm and has a red-line of about 3000 rpm. The EMD engine is much bigger and idles about 300 rpm and red-line about 1500 or so (I'm guessing). The Detroit engine being smaller revs up considerably faster than the EMD. The EMD engine, with its slower revving and stiff suspension, probably does not rock much in its chassis. No noticeable torquing and twisting there.

The diesel engine was patented in 1892.

 

I think the manufacturers kinda know what they're doing by now.

 

Rusty

Flash, 

 

A few points to remember:

 

1) The EMD 2-stroke cycle prime movers idle at 200RPM, or slightly lower. Max full load speed is 900 to 950RPM, depending on the HP rating.

 

2) In diesel electric locomotives, there is no "torque movement" of the engine, since they are connected to an electric generator, which provides power through the electrical switch gear and then to the traction motors (DC or AC). The traction motors is where the "torque reaction" really takes place.

 

3) I have no idea why you think and EMD engine is slower revving, nor what you mean by "stiff suspension". For example, many years ago, EMD provided their 20-645 turbocharged skid mounted engines as emergency protection for nuclear power plants, called 999 Units. The reason EMD engines were/are used is due to their VERY fast starting, revving, and load acceptance capabilities. For example, in the event of a total electrical power grid failure, the EMD 999 Units MUST A) START, B) come up to full RPM, and C) be accepting AT LEAST 15% load,,,,,ALL WITHIN 10 SECONDS!  An additional 30 seconds is then allowed for the Unit/Units to be at 100% LOAD, providing electrical power to control the nuclear reactor!

Very good point Rusty.

 

Plus EMD has been using the same design prime mover "hard mount" system since the 1930s!

I'm just taking a break  from cutting my lawn, and I checked this thread.

 

Hot,

 

Re: the "load" time you mentioned, what is the load time, exactly. The prime mover drives the alternator, which, by turning, produces electricity; the electricity produced, makes it's way to the traction motors; and, when sufficient electrical power is fed into the traction motors and overcomes the residence(load)... the trains starts to move.

 

Is the "load" time... the time it takes for the diesel and alternator to produce enough usable electricity, to power: traction motors, nuclear electrical equipment...

 

Or is it... the time it takes, once the power level is set, to get a working response, i.e. the power starts turning a traction motors and moving a train?

 

 

Rick

I say slower revving because the EMD engine has more reciprocating mass than the Detroit. In other words, the smaller and lighter Detroit, at full throttle, will reach peak RPM faster than the EMD. (ok I admit I dont absolutely know this, I'm just extrapolating based on size and weight)

 

If the Detroit engine were mounted flat on the ground, there would be no twisting in its frame under acceleration. Because the Detroit is mounted in a truck, with spring suspension and rubber tires, you can actually see the frame twist under acceleration because the suspension allows it to. The EMD engine and frame will not show any twist because it has not suspension that will allow it.

 

Rick was observing the motions of his automobile engine and thinking the EMD would behave the same...

That's all I was looking to replicate, with my vibrating(moving ) engine suggestion. A gentle shimmy when idling properly with a noticeable corresponding increase in detectable movement, during acceleration.

In all reciprocating piston engines, if the crankshaft moves clockwise, the engine block will move counter-clockwise, unless some sort of rigid frame or anchoring prevents the motion. (I believe that is one of Newton's Laws of Motion)

I have been around the Detroit diesels, and have spent almost 37 years working for EMD, and I can tell you that that great big EMD 567, or 645, or 710 will "rev" a LOT FASTER than you think, what with all that HP available.

BTW, my lawnmower vibrates, too; I padded the handle to lessen the vibration -  don't want carpal tunnel syndrome.

 

And for the doubters:

 

Look under the History heading, re: vibration problems.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GE_AC6000CW

 

 

EMD had all sorts of problems with their SD90MAC's; if vibration can transfer into human tissue and damage it, I suspect it could have a negative effect on man-made things, too.

 

Lots of stuff online, re: vibration and diesel car engines...

 

 

Rick

Don't believe EVERYTHING you read on the internet. The vast majority of the problems with the SD90MAC 6000 HP units was primarily electrical, and NOT the "H" engine.

I've heard all sorts of claims, the last... the computers were getting blamed.

 

 

I'm inclined to think their prime movers had a number of issues...

 

EMD's 645 got rave reviews in the smaller SD40-2's; but, performed poorly in the supposedly well researched SD50 model. The once reliable 645 engine couldn't handle the demands of the bigger locomotive... I bet it vibrated and shook quite a bit.

 

 

Rick

Rusty,

 

I'm talking about a soft mount situation; to keep the vibration contained in the prime mover cavity. BTW, were not talking earthquakes here; at least I'm not.

 

BTW, that's how carpal tunnel syndrome develops - from repeated exposure to vibration. My hands started going numb, before I applied the padding.

 

 

Rick

Well arguing with a hobbyist, and "professional debater" is like mud wrestling with a pig! You quickly realize that you can NOT win, because the pig loves it!

 

Just keep arguing. I'm finished with this crap!

I asked for an explanation, re: the railroading term "loading". I've asked that very same question before on another real train forum. It's weird that with all the experts... I never get a concise straight forward answer.

 

 

Rick

 

I'm thinking "no" on the vibration Rick, the whole point of an internal combustion engine these days is to have it operate as smoothly as possible to avoid damaging bearings and other moving parts.

 

While I have no personal experience with a diesel locomotive, I'm quite familiar with larger industrial equipment like loaders, crawlers, tub grinders etc.

 

The diesel engine in any of the equipment vibrates little if any, usually not enough to see.

Any time real obvious vibration may have occured was due to a failing or out of balance component turned by the diesel engine, not the engine itself.

 

Larger diesel engines are mounted more solidly than you pickup truck motor, and in the case of a locomotive engine, it is only turning a generator, not a drivetrain like a vehicle.

 

If what your saying is true, we should see the  teeth fillings falling out of the mouth of the person taking this video.

 

Hi Rick,

 

 

Did ya have a look at the link I provided, re GE's AC6000CW's 6000hp prime mover. There was significant vibration issues...

 

Re; the video you provided, that 710 is mounted to a significantly large solid surface; prime movers are mounted on a less stable, suspension equipped platform. Either way, any vibration can move into the adjoining surface(s), if the proper precautions are not taken. Cement foundations, flooring etc. can fail after repeated exposure to vibrations. It usually takes a bit of time...

 

I'm guessing in a situation, like in the video you provided, the vibration could be felt; but, would be harder to see. In that type of situation, that part of the building would vibrate along with the engine... making it hard to see.

 

 

Rick

If that video doesn't convince Rick B that there is no movement, nothing will.

 

Rick B,

There is well over a eighty years of experience here telling you the truth and you just won't believe them! Your idea was dumb to begin with and it is even dumber now.

Jim,

 

Look up above your last post. An explanation.

 

If my link didn't convince you...

 

80 years of something, here.

 

 

Rick

An "issue" means its not normal........ contrary to the beach boys... not so good vibrations.

 

Heres a genesis working.

 

 

 

Heres an old e unit, steady as she goes.

 

 

 

Somebody needs to rest their camera, on the working power plant; if it shakes...

 

The big GE 6 wasn't built strong enough, originally; among other things, the engine walls had to be beefed up.

 

 

Rick

Here's an example of common vibration dampening - your clothes washing machine. If it didn't have a suspension/dampening mechanism, your house would be vibrating like crazy during the spin cycle; especially, if the load wasn't balanced.

 

 

Rick

Personally, I'd rather see the features we already have be improved further to represent other ( more impressive) prototypical locomotive anomolies.

 

Ricardo,

 

Are you telling me that thing wasn't shaking like crazy - clawing to start?

 

Where was that... Eastern Europe?

 

Nice locs!

 

 

Rick

http://www.american-rails.com/alco-c630.html

 

For some reason, these seems like shakers. I've got a MTH Railking 628; the prime mover sounds are Alco rough, which I like; and, I've got an Atlas O Master Line C630. I wouldn't mind seeing a hard working 251E biting in...

 

We had our share, in Canada.

 

 

Rick

Nope, no shaking.

 

 

 

Thanks for the vid's, Ricardo; but, I wouldn't want you defending me, if that's your idea of evidence. In the first video, the camera operator is all over the place... and, I think I'm seeing some vibration, at the left forefront, near the end of the second video.

 

If anything shook, it must have been Alco's.

 

 

Rick

i mentioned this feature to my girlfriend and for some reason she seemed quite interested in the idea.

You know what Rick B? You are correct, everything vibrates. EMD engines, GE engines, Alco engines, Subaru engines, they all vibrate. Molecules, atoms, quarks, photons, they all vibrate too. You name it. If it has a temperature greater than 0 degrees Kelvin, its vibrating.