Newcomer to O scale model Trains Best of which world

Lionel.  All signs say they are still in business.  AND Atlas, Third Rail use their TMCC system.   

The Legacy system is really a variation of the TMCC system, so, adding the YEARS that Lionel -produced TMCC, then the years they have produced Legacy, plus their history of backwards-compatibility- they would be (and are) my choice.  Also- the system itself is better that DCC or DCS because it uses the entire electrical system of your home, as an antenna.  Reliability, and simplicity.

I’m with Mike. TMCC is the way to go, I have not stepped up to Legacy. I run a lot of Lionchief and Lionchief plus, and now Lionchief 2.0. For power I use Z4000’s. I can then run conventional as well. I only have a few MTH engines and run those conventional.

Stay with and review the ogr forum, it is excellent. In doing so, in relation to topics of mth vs Lionel, there are many more topics related to the mth system. So, the obvious question is why? The answer is that the mth system have MANY more issues.

use the Lionel system!!

A major factor is that the future of the DCS system, and particularly new locomotives using this system is now uncertain given the announced closing of MTH this spring/summer/fall.  While it has been stated that DCS will continue as an independent company after MTH closes, many of us find it hard to believe there will be a market for an orphan system if locomotives are no longer made that utilize the system.  Dust probably won't clear until late 2021 or early 2022 is my guess.

LionChief, LionChief 2.0+ and Legacy are time tested control systems, and TMCC (basically the predecessor and compatible with Legacy) are the most widely available locomotives.  Current products run using LionChief, Bluetooth (smart device app), TMCC or Legacy, but none will control MTH locos (PS1, PS2, PS3) in command mode.  So without DCS, you are restricted to conventional for MTH locos (PS1 isn't command in any case, and hasn't been made in 20 years).  If you are determined to use MTH Premier locos in command mode, DCS is your only option, as DCC isn't compatible with other manufacturer's products in three rail O gauge.  Unless you are going to use DCC only and MTH locos so equipped as your only locos.

Complicated, but that's the reality after 25 years of product development.

My choice has been to pretty much restrict myself to Lionel, Atlas and 3rd Rail products which use some combination of LionChief, (Lionel only) LC+ (Lionel only), TMCC (Atlas and 3rd Rail, also previously K-Line and Weaver) and Legacy (Lionel only).  All command locos (LC, LC+, TMCC, Legacy, PS2, PS3) can operate on the same layout/track, but separate controllers may be necessary.

" Is there another system or another way to expand the wireless phone APP so that we can run all of our engines with just one system? "

Unfortunately, no.  It is possible to control TMCC/Legacy/LC+ 2.0 locos along with MTH PS2 and PS3 locos in command mode using the DCS system with a TMCC or Legacy base connected by MTH's cable, but there is no way of controlling LionChief and LionChief Plus locos using DCS.  MTH locos from the 1990s are PS1 and only operate in conventional mode.  DCC is a big technical undertaking for converting locos that do not already have this on board and I would strongly advise against unless your hobby is playing with soldering irons and electronics, as well as model railroading.  And if that's the case, I'd just convert any MTH locos to TMCC using ERR boards from 3rd Rail.

Hi Carl (& Susanne) - Welcome to the Forum!

I concur with everything that's already been said about Lionel's Operating Systems, particularly now because MTH's future (ie. parts and service) is unknown since their manufacturing end is supposed to be closing in April 2021.  Having said that, I was in the same boat as you a couple of years ago and please bear in mind that I have a mix of Lionel (mainly modern but some post war) and MTH trains but only a small layout.

I ultimately decided on getting a Lionel CAB-1L ('L' for Legacy) and BASE-1L along with a Legacy PowerMaster (better circuit protection), and I already owned a Lionel 180 W PowerHouse (commonly referred to as a 'Brick' that provides the power).  This enables me to run any Lionel train - either Conventional, TMCC, LC, LC+ 2 or Legacy - (due to L's built-in backward compatibility).  I can also run any MTH train in 'Conventional' mode which means I can use their bells and whistles and some - but not all - other MTH features, and I'm content with that as I primarily like to watch trains run.  I didn't feel the need to buy and incur the additional expense of Lionel's latest CAB-2 operating system at this time, and it doesn't preclude me from upgrading to that system later - if I decide to do so.

Anyway, that's something for you to consider, and just so you are aware - Lionel sells the CAB-1L and BASE-1L Command Set as a 2-pack (6-37147) while the Legacy PowerMaster (6-37146) and the 180W Powerhouse (6-85226) are sold individually.

Good Luck in all your train endeavors!

Thank you all for helping us. As per your advice, we have spent most of the morning reading about the Lionel Legacy & LionChief System.

It looks like Lionel is really going to be the only way to go for us in the long run.

I see a trend by Lionel away from Legacy in favor of LionChief Plus 2.0, using mobile devices as the primary (and perhaps only) hardware for controllers in the future.

Keep in mind that the bulk of Lionel’s sales come from the starter set and lower-cost toy train market, which subsidizes the production of the higher-priced scale line. Nothing is imminent, unlike the MTH dilemma, but Lionel could just as easily decide the cost for a Legacy system is not worth supporting at any point.

Does this mean you shouldn’t buy Lionel products? That’s silly.

You should consider all lines of products — MTH, Lionel, Atlas, K-Line, 3rd Rail, Williams by Bachmann, etc. — based on price, quality and what interests you, not on any current control system. Keep in mind that the only universal system is conventional control, which many hobbyists favor.

In short, avoid this brand-name nonsense that has pervaded the 3-rail market since the rise of MTH in the 1990s. Look at the HO market for a sense of balance. It’s too bad Lionel and MTH didn’t lead the way to one command control system a quarter century ago, because they would have eliminated a layer of this brand nonsense today.

@Jim R. posted:

I see a trend by Lionel away from Legacy in favor of LionChief Plus 2.0, using mobile devices as the primary (and perhaps only) hardware for controllers in the future.

Keep in mind that the bulk of Lionel’s sales come from the starter set and lower-cost toy train market, which subsidizes the production of the higher-priced scale line. Nothing is imminent, unlike the MTH dilemma, but Lionel could just as easily decide the cost for a Legacy system is not worth supporting at any point.

Does this mean you shouldn’t buy Lionel products? That’s silly.

You should consider all lines of products — MTH, Lionel, Atlas, K-Line, 3rd Rail, Williams by Bachmann, etc. — based on price, quality and what interests you, not on any current control system. Keep in mind that the only universal system is conventional control, which many hobbyists favor.

In short, avoid this brand-name nonsense that has pervaded the 3-rail market since the rise of MTH in the 1990s. Look at the HO market for a sense of balance. It’s too bad Lionel and MTH didn’t lead the way to one command control system a quarter century ago, because they would have eliminated a layer of this brand nonsense today.

I don't see that trend at all.  Just look at the new catalog, tons of new Legacy, sets, Acela. etc...  Lionchief Plus 2.0 got 3 new Engines.

My crystal ball is in the shop, so I have no idea what is coming down the pike.  However, I am pretty sure that there will be more than sufficient trains for me to run, buy, sell, customize, and break in the future.

The sky really isn't falling, in spite of cries to the contrary.

GRJ - Let's hope that you have "more than sufficient trains for me to run" now that you have that wonderful layout to run them on!  

I started out thinking that I was going to stick with Lionel only. Then I was talked into starting with a DCS system instead. So I got DCS stuff and I liked it and all. Then I got a Legacy engine. I could run it with DCS and it was cool but it lacked some features. So I hunted around and got some Legacy equipment on sale. I have both, I like both. I really like the Legacy CAB2 controller. It feels a lot like what I think running a real train would be like in my opinion. I have not held a DCS controller. I only used the app and the app was killer, but not as good as the CAB2.

So what I'm saying is that you might start with one system and then realize you want the other. That's what happened to me and I'm glad it did.

I, too, am now looking towards Lionel, especially older, more affordable TMCC units, to run on my 20 year MTH layout given MTHs "demise" (?).  That said, MTH has been a reliable and pleasurable system for me over the years.

Like all things in technology, it evolves, and while it may be ending, I think there's a good bit of life left in the second hand market.  As many others have said, run what you like!  And, don't be afraid of any of the systems.  You will learn what level of integration and complexity is satisfactory for you.

I'm sure I'll be running MTH, Lionel, 3rd Rail, Williams, Weaver, etc. for many a year.  Most of the ones that came conventional are now command operated, and those that haven't been converted are just waiting their turn.   With at least 150 locomotives and 300+ passenger & freight cars, I don't foresee any shortage of power or rolling stock on my RR.

Why not make it simple. If you are planning to run to separate tracks on your layout. Have one dedicated to Lionel and the second dedicated to MTH.

@Merlin posted:

Why not make it simple. If you are planning to run to separate tracks on your layout. Have one dedicated to Lionel and the second dedicated to MTH.

Because it's totally not necessary to do that, MTH and Lionel command runs just fine together, I do it all the time.  You can run TMCC, Legacy, PS/2, PS/3, LC, LC+, and LC+ 2.0 on the same tracks at the same time with no problems.

The majority of my locos are TMCC, but I do have a handful of MTH products.  So I acquired the MTH DCS Explorer product, which will give me the capability of using the "essential" features of those few MTH engines.  The whole-hog MTH DCS system can be layered in later, if needed.  Running anything is months away, as I'm still butchering wood and homasote for the new layout.

I "second the motion(s)" for the Lionel control systems: TMCC, Legacy, LionChief and its variants.

After a TIA, a stroke, and a cardiac blip, I arranged a massive auction sale of Rock Island-oriented collection of trains by several manufacturers. What remains is a small collection of Lionel engines with TMCC, Legacy, and LionChief technology; some on display shelves, some on a L-shaped layout.

I bought one MTH NASA diesel switcher as an adventure with NASA-branded products, but hired Gunrunner John to convert that SW1500 loco to TMCC so it would "talk" to my TMCC-equipped layout. Worked out great, and I avoided buying a pricey MTH DCS control system!

My free advice ... join the Lionel loyalists!
Uncompensated advocate for "Big L"

Mike Mottler      LCCA 12394

    Thanks' again for all of the information and opinions for this project.

   We had a chance to stop by Dale's Trains in Norfolk over the weekend. This shopping experience is worse than visiting a Northern Tool Store! Don't dare walk in without a shopping list and don't buy anything that isn't on the list. We ended up walking out with several O Scale books on building a first layout from start to finish, six switches, a new Lionel LionChief Locomotive and Tender for our Steam layout, some little people for our observation car, and a list of stuff to research for our layout.

  Oh! Did I forget to mention the only reason for driving down there was to look at the Lionel Trains and their current offerings as a comparison to our trains, detail, and quality to purchase some items down the road? The only Lionel Trains that I have looked at many years ago didn't thrill me at all, the Lionel LionChief Set came with a modern ET44 G.E. Demonstrator Engine which we were comparing to a late 90's MTH Starter Set and a very early MTH GP38-2 Diesel.

   Lionel has come a long way in the quality and construction of their Trains. They match or in many cases are better than the quality of the current MTH Premier lineup in our opinion.

  As stated we want to use one system overall to keep the cost down as well as making it very user friendly for us, we are going to go with the Lionel system. We can set the LionChief line so it can be switched to Conventual Control so we can operate our older locomotive(s) and Diesel's with a flip of a switch while using Lionel TMCC Legacy Control on the other two lines. We most certainly fell in love with the current  Lionel Locomotives and Diesels.

  Did I mention that you meet the nicest people in a model train store? We are both flabbergasted! I asked a question about flickering lights and adding Little people to our Coach-observation cars and three customers jumped right in on the conversation and answered all of our questions, welcomed us to the hobby then told us if we needed more advise or research for a O Scale topic to be sure and check out the "OGRFORUM!!"  It is a very small world and you meet the nicest people online and in flesh playing with or talking about Model Trains.

   With the Highest of Regards, Sincerely,

  Carl and Susanne

Carl - Your trip to Dale's Trains sounds like my wife's shopping sprees.  I have to put the Credit Card into an ice bucket as soon as she gets home to cool it down (lol)!

All kidding aside, glad to hear you had such an enjoyable (albeit expensive) day.  After all, we can't take our money with us when we go.

Stay healthy and keep safe!

Not to be argumentative here but why would anyone consider DCS when the company is ending it’s business. I know it was stated that several employees will continue DCS but without MTH making new engines that’s a scary approach.

@romiller49 posted:

Not to be argumentative here but why would anyone consider DCS when the company is ending it’s business. I know it was stated that several employees will continue DCS but without MTH making new engines that’s a scary approach.

Going out today is a scary approach but we still do it. As for me I am okay with MTH and have no problems buy anything now or in the future. Yep that comment will bring people out of the woodwork I sure!

Psst,  hey kid come over here, ...C O N V E N T I O N A L ! news flash, you can run anything from any manufacturer EVER !  Simple fun operation PERIOD !

It’s also fun watching your kids controlling your trains on your iPad. Anything to keep the interested in the hobby is a plus.

My short answer: MTH has superior detail, if that matters most. I am new to this too, but in the past year have bought maybe 20 locos, spit between MTH PS3, Legacy, conventional post-war Lionel , one Lionchief and one Atlas TMCC. What I have found is that if you thrive on a high degreee of realism (read: effort), than MTH is a great choice. If you thrive on FUN, then Lionel has my vote.

I have found that to be more important when my 8YO grandsons come over and I can hand them univeral remotes and just keep my hand on the juice. Likewise, with the occasional visitor who wants something simple to run with minimal instruction.

The flip side is every 8YO these days is masterful with an iPad....(not neceessarily a compliment)