News of interest from China's major manufacturing region (2 items)

there are revolts and riots in china among its labor force, its all over the net. time to bring manufacturing back to the usa where productivity is the answer to labor cost.

One word - Weaver.

I'd like to see more toy train production back in the US, too.  I imagin e it will happen in time.  I expect it will mean somewhat higher prices, too, but then - what else is new?

Was that Lawrence Welk on the edge of the "bubbles"?

So, can you tell me exactly where to find that Weaver NS Heritage SD70ACe or GE CW4400?

Or F3/7's, GP7/9's, E6's, E7's, DD40's, DD40X's, PA's?

Or the elusive Weaver Big Boy or Challenger?

UP CA1, CA4/5, Santa Fe ACF, B&O I-12, International Car Extended Vision Cabeese?

Inquiring minds want to know...

My point is: While Weaver is a good and admirable company, they have offered no where near the selection made available from Lionel, MTH and Atlas O as a result of overseas manufacturing. 

Rusty

Much higher prices and much thinner catalogs.

But I don't expect to see that kind of move happen in my lifetime.

I think you'll find them in China. Weaver steam engines aren't made in the U.S.

You should know that I know that you probably know that I also know Weaver never offered a Challenger or Big Boy and all their steam offerings were/are made offshore.

It was a rhetorical (today's $5 word) question...

Weaver is always tossed up as the solution to all O Gauge problems by being made in the USA.

However, my point is: If you want a locomotive that's made in America and as long as it's an FA2/FB2, GP38 or RS3, and a selection of (but not all) freight cars, then Weaver is the company to deal with.

But...

Want anything else?  Outside of four presidential 6464 boxcars, that is...  You're going to have to deal with a company that has things made off shore.

Rusty

The point in citing Weaver was not to suggest that we should only buy Weaver, or that Weaver can meet all our wants/needs. That is so obviously nonsensical that it never even occurred to me. The point is, that Weaver is bringing production BACK to the U.S. The soon-to-be-produced Milwaukee Road ribside boxcars will sell for the same price, and have the same level of detail, as the B&O wagontop cars built in China a couple of years ago. The point is, the fact that Weaver can sell these cars at the same price as imported cars and make money, suggests that maybe, just maybe, somebody else could do the same. Obviously it isn't going to happen overnight; Lionel and MTH have enormous investments in Chinese production and there are all manner of issues to be addressed in setting up a U.S. manufacturing operation. But, as the business environment in China gets tougher and shipping costs keep going up, the relative cost advantage of producing in China is likely to continue to erode. China is corrupt, there's no real rule of law, and the business environment is far more subject to political manipulation than it is here. 

Mexico is another possibility. It's next door, it's a friendly country (which China is not), American management can keep a much closer eye on things, and the jobs would go to Mexicans who might otherwise be tempted to try their luck on this side of the border. Lionel had a fiasco there a while back, but Mexico has changed. It's a much more modern and middle-class country now, and Mexican industry can and does build quality goods. 

Chinese-built trains are not an inevitable feature of the landscape for the indefinite future. Things can change, and smart, flexible companies will find a way to change things to their advantage. That's why they moved to China in the first place; there's no law of nature that says they have to stay there. 

How many times does it have to said, production is NOT coming back to the USA. If they do move it will be to other countries like Malaysia, Vietnam, etc. yes some items may be made here but for the most part it will stay overseas. No matter the cost overseas it is still much cheaper then to have production in the USA. 

you will not see production come back to the USA in yours or my life times. I spent my career looking for the cheapest places on earth to manufacture. Although things are getting tougher to mfg. in China it is still the go to place for high tech manufacturing. If China gets too expensive and it will there are plans already in place to move To places like Malaysia and Vietnam. While your reading newspapers I am in the process of buying more land for our clients and the land is not in America. 

so please keep your condescending attitude to yourself, and spend sometime In the places you read about before making your comments. 

 spend sometime In the places you read about before making your comments. 

I have walked factory floors in Taiwan and Mexico, worked as a cost accountant in international operations of a Fortune 500 multinational, and spent 20-plus years in Asia, Africa, Europe, and Latin America in various positions dealing with international trade, economics, and manufacturing. I speak Mandarin and a few others. I retired and now I teach foreign affairs and international economics. Your clients are not the entire universe of manufacturing. Their management believes that the future of manufacturing is in Asia, and in their particular specialties, that may be a correct prediction. That does not mean that other opportunities do not exist elsewhere. The idea that manufacturing will simply migrate from China to Malaysia, Vietnam, Bangladesh, etc. is the conventional wisdom, and is probably true for many industries - but not necessarily all of them. Labor cost is not the only factor of production. Subsidies offered by China and others may or may not continue. Stability and safety of investments are an issue anywhere that the rule of law is weak and courts are biased against foreigners, as is the case throughout much of the developing world. Politics can short-circuit the most massive of investments (e.g. rare-earth processing in Malaysia). Cheap manufacturing may prove expensive if your local partner can steal your technology, trade secrets, and customer list and start a competing company, with the total cooperation of the local government and no recourse to the legal system (look up Danone in China, among many others).

Certainly the U.S. will continue to purchase many of its manufactured goods from overseas. Comparative advantage is the central point of trade, and right now developing countries have comparative advantage in many areas of manufacturing. But to make  a blanket prediction that "you will not see manufacturing come back to the United States in our lifetimes" is so broad and certain as to be a matter of faith as much as evidence. And if there is one thing I do not have faith in, it is faith. 

Postwar, RMT  and Williams seems the best way for me.  Maybe not as large a model selection as MTH and high-end Lionel but more affordable, IMO.  Might be easier to get parts for, too.

I guess it has to be repeated over and over.  

Some just refuse to accept the simple fact that we're in a worldwide economy now and overseas production will remain a part of it for toy trains and many if not most other consumer items.  With some exceptions, we--the U.S.--have simply priced ourselves out of the manufacturing sector, at least until the rest of the world catches up in terms of production costs and standard of living.

The right advance in technology may come along that could bring manufacturing back if it could reduce the amount of labor significantly to build something. JMHO. I may not be here to see it. 

Energy costs related to shipping will eventually help determine where items for certain markets are produced. 

It is no coincidence that container ships have had their engines reconfigured to run at lower, more fuel efficient speeds. 

It is now technically feasible to produce manufactured goods at almost any location on the globe.  In the long term it will be very difficult to predict where something will be made; but shipping costs are destined to become a much larger factor.

For a host of reasons, some of which that have already been covered by others, at least some manufacturing will move to other countries from China.

1. Molds fro the Lionel 1937 700 E were made in taly.

2. Cameries  ate assembled here, and sent to Japan

One thing that seems to be missing in this discussion is that even US manufacturing is victim to supply chain problems, defective or counterfiet components and the ability to hire skilled people for machine work.

Gone are the days when you could hire sombody off the street, give him some quick training on a mill, lathe or other machine and turn him loose.

Plus, for the most part, the youth of today aren't interested in working in a manufacturing environment, they want to write apps and work in a place where they could be free spirits.

Rusty

For some products like wood working equipment for the serious hobbyist ie 350.00 for a jointer vs 1000.00 or 2000.00 the quality out of Asia is so bad that either you are forced to spend big bucks and hope you do not need to run 220 circuit or you start checking estate sales and craigslist looking for older models.. Some guys just give up.

(Bad casting, stripped bolts, metal desintegrates)

My understanding is that Delta/Porter Cable is having production issues other industries are being impacted as well. I have several friends who have to visit manufacturing facilities on a monthly basis in order to ensure product quality and production. The last 3 years have seen issues in quality of work and material. In at least one case production is being brought back to the US and GB where improvements in 3D protoyping / CNC can now go from concept to tooling in a few weeks (in some cases days) and robotics reduce the cost of labor while increasing quality (okay decreasing defects).

Ditto! There is always spray paint and decals! RMY Beeps and Lionel Docksides are the extent of my motive power!

Allan -- more likely that Third World standards of living will rise and ours will fall (in relative terms) and we will meet our overseas competitors somewhere in the middle over time. Admittedly, probably over a long time.

I believe in the intermediate term it is far more likely that model railroad production will shift to low-wage countries other than China, as they become more technically proficient and yet still afford labor costs savings vis-a-vis China.

Anyone worth his or her salt would never make the kind of absolute statements that we've seen made here in this thread.  Some, while sounding authoritative, don't even know what they're talking about.  The bottom line is world dynamics are very volatile right now and ANYTHING is possible.  Although manufacturing on a wide scale for many consumer items has likely left the US for a long time, I would never write off various scenarios that aren't even imaginable at this time.

Preaching anything resembling absolutes at this point is pure gibberish, since none of us has a corner on predicting the future.  And even those who are paid to offer their opinions as industry consultants don't always get it right. 

David

One of the staples of the 3-rail hobby is made in the US, track by Gargraves and Ross. Although I like Atlas solid rail, part of my decision to go back to Ross was to support them.

This all started thirty, thirty five years ago. The majority of the world wanted the same life style as the U.S. had. That would take five hundred years to happen. So to speed things up we lowered are standards to meet theirs. Now everyone is happy, the only short fall I see is a commerical in the near future " Only one yuan will feed this american family for seven days", will you send your donation to...

Bill

All of my 2 rail freight cars are from weaver, all 82 of them. I have made my decision that all freight cars will be from weaver.

If more people support and buy weaver model products, then you might see NEW freight cars or diesel engines. 

Just remember, that it cost about $250,000.00 to $400,000.00 to have molds made. How many of you have that much money just sitting in your bank account.

Untill you walk a mile in Joe Hayter shoes everyday at weaver models, be happy that weaver models is still made in the U.S.A. 

Weaver models is making two brand new freight cars, a box car and a hopper car. Which means joe spent about $400,000.00 to $600,000.00 to have two new molds made. 

Just my two cents.

Frankly, I need my fixed-income dollars to go further than made in the USA permits. So as I see things, we are fortunate to have affordable "Made In China" trains. Study the Mike Wolf role model. It's outstanding and the reason I can afford to be into O-gauge trains!

Once upon a time "Made In Japan" had the same connotation (JUNK) as "Made In China" does today. Then Japan became a super power in science, engineering and manufacturing technologies that surpassed the USA. China is following in the Japanese footsteps because the Chinese are driven to improve their standard of living.

Sometime between "Made In Japan" and "Made In China," "Made In The USA" became too expensive and of questionable quality, so it's nearly extinct. The dumbing-down of our education system isn't producing the caliber of people the USA needs to return to a manufacturing GDP base. With the trimming down of NASA and the defense industry, the technological dumbing-down of the USA is going to get worse.

We have raised generations who do not want to manufacture things. Excessive "GREEN"and excessive government regulations are stifling what little manufacturing we have left. We have become a nation of consumers and service providers, and we cannot live without other countries making goods for us.

Is this damage worth a cheap toy train or anything? They cleaned up our water by poisoning the other side of the planet. Unfortunately, it's the same planet.

AH HA! I got it! it is all a plot from Langley! give them enough capitalism money and they will all get greedy. then they pollute their land. the wall of bubbles are just a bunch of  scrubbing bubble that got out of control.

It is almost funny, out importers most likely told them make toys and you will be making millions over night like Japan, BTW you will need a Godzilla like monster to entertain them, and a thing called Sushi, same crap you eat but rap it up in a roll and all the American yuppies will stand in line for it, and throw in some scrubbing bubbles in water and put some fizz in it and call it an energy drink!

 The Japanese would yell bonnzai running to the bank, the Chinese can yell CHA CHING!

yummy

Yeah, places like Bubbly Creek in Chicago are always preferable....

Much of the waste from the Chicago meat packing plants was dumped here.  Over 100 years later after multiple clean up attempts and gentrification, the gook dumped in the South Branch of the Chicago River is still decomposing and bubbling away.

Rusty

Sorry but don't look for all USA production just yet!!  Scott Mann has already found other factorys in other countries started by people from China!!  READ HIS THREAD ON THE 3 RAIL SCALE FORUM!!!!

Don't keep crying about on here,READ THE FACTS!!!!

Just my opinion like it or not!!

Doug

I like that also!!!

.... aint that the truth! Lets not forget about korea, my most reliable, highest detailed, modern Lionel trains are  korean made. Mike Wolf's korean made trains raised the bar years ago and were a signifigant part of why Lionel began overseas manufacturing to remain competative.

I was expecting Charlton Heston and Yul Brynner to appear somewhere in this video.

Not to worry - authorities say the red color of the river was caused by "sand" from up stream.