Next big technology impact -- "self driving" trains?

Driverless cars and trucks are already being tested on real roads.  Planes can take off and land safely without human intervention.  

Crewless trains are already here.  The Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART) trains are all computer controlled.  The operator's only job is to open and close doors at stations and to be there if there is a safety issue.

It will probably be easier to control a train on a set path (track) than a car or truck which has multiple travel options.  We are probably only 10 to 20 years away from all of this becoming a part of daily life.  The times are changing and we are entering a brand new world.

NH Joe

"Model railroaders are way ahead of the real thing. We've had "driverless" trains for over 100 years."

Oh really? Then who is that monkey working the ZW? 

At BART the operator closes the doors, the computer opens them.  The operator also gets to sound the horn. The reality is that an operator is needed on board to handle any problems or equipment failures. They are absolutely necessary.  They put a curtain over the cab window so the passengers could not see the operator reading comic books while the train was traveling along at 70 mph. The right of way is fenced and there are no grade crossings, so there is really nothing to do until something goes wrong.

The railroads would probably be happier with automatic operation.  Things would be done more consistently. With PTC coming along, the step to automatic train operation is a small one.  The railroads and railway labor have already been dealing with the one man crew issue.  It will come.  The railroads cannot spend the money they are on PTC without some corresponding saving.  It looks like the conductor will pay the price for PTC.  

Is there not an ore railroad Down Under which is automated?  And there was an electric powered coal road in the Midwest which was automated, but is now closed.

The "People Mover" at O'Hare Airport is fully automated.  It had operators on board only during the initial operation in 1993.  Of course, it has the advantage of being on isolated and elevated right-of-way:

Rusty

I find automation both exciting and scary.  Scary in that I have actually seen first hand the reduction of blue collar workers.  I am an industrial electrician / controls technician and the chemical plant I work in has half the instrument techs and plant operators that it had when I started in 1988, due to automation.    The question I have is, eventually, who will be buying the products when most of us are out of work due to automation??  Driverless trucks and trains still need to haul something that people are buying...  ??

Two books and/or movies which could bring up some concerns:

1.  1984:  Concept of Big Brother

2.  2001:  Could a computer system turn into something like HAL?

Atlanta airport has automated trains as does DFW in Dallas, Forth Worth

Tinplate Tom posted:

Atlanta airport has automated trains as does DFW in Dallas, Forth Worth

In my opinion, those are just people movers and NOT technically "trains".

Read an article recently wherein the promoters of driverless vehicles are really concerned whether the world is ready for it. Thousands of new jobs will be created while millions of jobs are destroyed. The technical challenges are much less than the social problems. 

I don't know if anyone is aware but my uncle retired from IBM computer field repair, was a very stressful job as they had to get system's up for repair as quick as possible for major business company's ! the problem is after he retired they went to software that searches the entire computer system and then they tell the grunt tech to change what ever module or part the software detected. this did away with trouble shooting electronic techs in the field. everything has become so automated that even the high tech jobs have been going away for years! you can't even get a hold of a operator at almost any business anymore it is a automated answering system  as well and if you do get to speak with some one about what ever issue you are having chances are they work in another country like china japan Russia god only know where and most of them can barely speak English. I don't know where we are headed but it does not look good IMO!!!!!

God help the usa job base its been going away for many years!

Alan Mancus   

Dubai has them, London has them (DLR) other countries probably, nothing new, been around for a while. Roo.     Photo: DLR London

I don't know if anyone is aware but my uncle retired from IBM computer field repair, was a very stressful job as they had to get system's up for repair as quick as possible for major business company's ! the problem is after he retired they went to software that searches the entire computer system and then they tell the grunt tech to change what ever module or part the software detected.

I spent a fair number of years working on Univac / Unisys mainframe computers. The place was large enough to have a staff of Computer Engineers (physical repair folks) on site, and I knew them all.
Over the years the hardware changed drastically. At one time the CE's would repair boards onsite. In later years all they were allowed to do was replace boards. I don't know whether they sent the boards elsewhere for repairs, or just scrapped them. I'd guess it depended on the board.

Big Jim posted:

"Model railroaders are way ahead of the real thing. We've had "driverless" trains for over 100 years."

Oh really? Then who is that monkey working the ZW? 

I thought he was referring to the European term, Driver, vs the North American term, Locomotive Engineer, Jimmy.  I guess that monkey would have been you or me.  

To All:  It's already here.  On the BNSF Transcon, after boarding the locomotive, the Engineer enters some information in the control stand computer screen, verifies all temporary speed restrictions and Form B Track Bulletins, and turns control over to the locomotive on-board microprocessor.  He has to monitor everything that the locomotive is doing, sound the whistle for crossings and trackside employees, handle radio communications, call signal aspects or indications with others in the cab, and take over control for switching, running while in any yard or engine facility, and stopping if there is a main track crew change.  He also has to take control if it is apparent that the train will be stopped by a signal or a track gang at a place that will block public crossings, stopping back far enough to avoid having "cut the crossings".

This is all done for consistent compliance with the most fuel efficient method of running the locomotive.  The microprocessor is never tempted to try to make a better time over the road, using more aggressive train handling methods, even if it is Super Bowl Sunday and the Engineer wants to see the whole game on TV at the final terminal.  Not even if the Engineer's daughter is in a school recital that he might or might not be home in time to attend.  Just fuel efficiency, period.  Use of the automated equipment is mandatory, so long as it functions properly, and it almost always does.  

I guess it's coming, or as Tom pointed out it's  already here.  I know  talking to some of the guys  still working that it's not uncommon to get a radio message to reduce your throttle setting  to  notch 6... They must be testing something.. This is on freight. 

Newark Monorail and Miami Peoplemovers are all automated too!

I can't help but wonder how long it will be before we have "self driving" locomotives. With advances in GPS,
widespread broadband and satellite internet and the computer controls in modern locomotives it is theoretically
possible that in 10 years that engineers could become obsolete, replaced by "monitors" who ride in the cab and only
 respond to warning chimes, beeps, etc. Sensors in bearing housings could transmit a warning long before the bearing
overheats via internet. Sensors at each brake hose connection could do the same relaying information to the cab and
dispatcher. Safety will be enhanced but, again good jobs will be lost.

I doubt in ten years esp if the unions have any say in it. I think it would be done long term by attrition. Phase out the old "train Drivers" via retirement and not hire any new ones. IMHO switching jobsa may have to be done manned but long distance terminal routes would be the first to be automated.

Number 90 posted:

Big Jim posted:

"Model railroaders are way ahead of the real thing. We've had "driverless" trains for over 100 years."

Oh really? Then who is that monkey working the ZW? 

I thought he was referring to the European term, Driver, vs the North American term, Locomotive Engineer, Jimmy.  I guess that monkey would have been you or me.  

To All:  It's already here.  On the BNSF Transcon, after boarding the locomotive, the Engineer enters some information in the control stand computer screen, verifies all temporary speed restrictions and Form B Track Bulletins, and turns control over to the locomotive on-board microprocessor.  He has to monitor everything that the locomotive is doing, sound the whistle for crossings and trackside employees, handle radio communications, call signal aspects or indications with others in the cab, and take over control for switching, running while in any yard or engine facility, and stopping if there is a main track crew change.  He also has to take control if it is apparent that the train will be stopped by a signal or a track gang at a place that will block public crossings, stopping back far enough to avoid having "cut the crossings".

This is all done for consistent compliance with the most fuel efficient method of running the locomotive.  The microprocessor is never tempted to try to make a better time over the road, using more aggressive train handling methods, even if it is Super Bowl Sunday and the Engineer wants to see the whole game on TV at the final terminal.  Not even if the Engineer's daughter is in a school recital that he might or might not be home in time to attend.  Just fuel efficiency, period.  Use of the automated equipment is mandatory, so long as it functions properly, and it almost always does.  

How close is this to the LEADER system?