Where would one find the original blueprints for the Niagara? I have tried searching on google but found nothing.
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GenesisFan99 posted:Where would one find the original blueprints for the Niagara? I have tried searching on google but found nothing.
Most likely the New York Central Historical & Technical Society, (or is it the New York Central Technical & Historical Society?). Also, I'm pretty sure that one of the Locomotive Cyclopedia books from, say 1944, would have the elevation drawing. Possibly another source might be, The ALCO Historical Society.
Or maybe Stauffer's book?
New York Central Modern Steam Power
Also, the March 1949 Model Railroader has a nice set of drawings, including cross-sections and a short article.
Thank you for the resources guys, very helpful. I see now the historical society is printing a book that may have them.
GenesisFan99 posted:Thank you for the resources guys, very helpful. I see now the historical society is printing a book that may have them.
Yes, although not out yet, that book, Know Thy Niagaras, will be the most comprehensive book ever published on the NYC Niagara class locomotives.
Hot Water posted:GenesisFan99 posted:Thank you for the resources guys, very helpful. I see now the historical society is printing a book that may have them.
Yes, although not out yet, that book, Know Thy Niagaras, will be the most comprehensive book ever published on the NYC Niagara class locomotives.
Sounds exactly like what I'll need.
I haven't been able to find a figure for the cost of PTC systems in steam locomotives. I'm told that if a steam locomotive were to travel above 79 mph, it needs to be equipped with cab signalling and an automatic stop system, which would seem to be PTC in this case.
What I'm trying to do here is see how much it would cost to build a Niagara. While yes, I'm just 16 years old, we all know young guys are needed. I plan to get my FRA certification as soon as I'm 18 and I plan to volunteer with the steam crew at my local railroad museum, which runs an oil-fired 2-6-2.
The locomotive would be oil-fired and be the Poppet Valve version, dubbed the "Super Niagara".
It’s not a NYC Niagara, but the Alco Historical & Technical Society owns a NDeM Niagara, and they probably have a copy of the blueprints as well since their mission is to preserve Alco’s history.
hullmat991 posted:It’s not a NYC Niagara, but the Alco Historical & Technical Society owns a NDeM Niagara,
The NdeM spelled it differently, and their 3000 class 4-8-4s were MUCH smaller than the NYC 6000 class 4-8-4s. However, the NdeM did purchase their 4-8-4s new, from ALCO.
and they probably have a copy of the blueprints as well since their mission is to preserve Alco’s history.
Wouldn't mater as the NdeM 4-8-4s are not even close to the NYC 4-8-4s.
GenesisFan99 posted:Hot Water posted:GenesisFan99 posted:Thank you for the resources guys, very helpful. I see now the historical society is printing a book that may have them.
Yes, although not out yet, that book, Know Thy Niagaras, will be the most comprehensive book ever published on the NYC Niagara class locomotives.
Sounds exactly like what I'll need.
I haven't been able to find a figure for the cost of PTC systems in steam locomotives.
Probably because they REQUIREMENTS have not yet been fully established, yet.
I'm told that if a steam locomotive were to travel above 79 mph, it needs to be equipped with cab signalling and an automatic stop system, which would seem to be PTC in this case.
Not just stem locomotives but, ALL trains, anyplace throughout the nation that travel over 79 MPH, MUST have some sort of cab signal, automatic trains stop/control system, as mandated by Federal law (which goes back many, many, many years), long before the current PTC requirement.
What I'm trying to do here is see how much it would cost to build a Niagara.
Most likely millions and millions of dollars, and many, many, many years. I suggest to look up the PRR T1 Trust ordination, that has already begun construction of a totally new PRR T1 duplex 4-4-4-4.
While yes, I'm just 16 years old, we all know young guys are needed. I plan to get my FRA certification
What "FRA certification"?
as soon as I'm 18 and I plan to volunteer with the steam crew at my local railroad museum, which runs an oil-fired 2-6-2.
The locomotive would be oil-fired and be the Poppet Valve version, dubbed the "Super Niagara".
Well, don't hold your breath.
Hot Water posted:GenesisFan99 posted:Hot Water posted:GenesisFan99 posted:Thank you for the resources guys, very helpful. I see now the historical society is printing a book that may have them.
Yes, although not out yet, that book, Know Thy Niagaras, will be the most comprehensive book ever published on the NYC Niagara class locomotives.
Sounds exactly like what I'll need.
I haven't been able to find a figure for the cost of PTC systems in steam locomotives.
Probably because they REQUIREMENTS have not yet been fully established, yet.
I'm told that if a steam locomotive were to travel above 79 mph, it needs to be equipped with cab signalling and an automatic stop system, which would seem to be PTC in this case.
Not just stem locomotives but, ALL trains, anyplace throughout the nation that travel over 79 MPH, MUST have some sort of cab signal, automatic trains stop/control system, as mandated by Federal law (which goes back many, many, many years), long before the current PTC requirement.
What I'm trying to do here is see how much it would cost to build a Niagara.
Most likely millions and millions of dollars, and many, many, many years. I suggest to look up the PRR T1 Trust ordination, that has already begun construction of a totally new PRR T1 duplex 4-4-4-4.
While yes, I'm just 16 years old, we all know young guys are needed. I plan to get my FRA certification
What "FRA certification"?
as soon as I'm 18 and I plan to volunteer with the steam crew at my local railroad museum, which runs an oil-fired 2-6-2.
The locomotive would be oil-fired and be the Poppet Valve version, dubbed the "Super Niagara".
Well, don't hold your breath.
I have seen the T1 campaign and what I meant by find out the cost is to obtain the blueprints and find out how much it would cost to cast each part, for a total cost of building. I'm prepared to take years to build complete the project, doing all that is necessary to make it happen. I don’t see anything as impossible, but there’s no denying that actually building a Niagara is an enormous project.
As for FRA certification, that would be the FRA engineer’s certification, in order for me to be able to operate locomotives. I think anyone building and/or maintaining a steam locomotive should know not just how everything works, but how to fire and operate one, being certified to do so.
The idea behind the Poppet Valve version (class S2a #5500) is in testing it proved better than the other Niagaras (S1b, Baker valve gear), producing more horsepower and consuming less coal. Obviously coal is much different than oil, but more horsepower is always better. Of course Poppet Valves were never perfected, but with today’s technology that should not be a problem, especially with the T1 Trust having to deal with the same problem.
Thank you for the information on the 79 mph restriction. I ask about that because if the project ever manages to complete its goal, it would be nice to see what a Niagara could do at higher speeds, like 90 mph. Supposedly they made 6680 horsepower at 85 mph (whether that is drawbar or cylinder I’m not sure).
I know I have much to learn and I hope this can become a reality.
Actually, I think the T1 people are going to recycle an older large PRR tender. However the rest of the locomotive will be new.
Dominic Mazoch posted:Actually, I think the T1 people are going to recycle an older large PRR tender. However the rest of the locomotive will be new.
That is correct. I have to address the issue of building a brand new PT tender and modifying it for oil as none currently exist.
The 1950 Locomotive Cyclopedia has a set of prints, and some nice detail shots of the tender connections.
Also some great additional Niagara technical articles may be found here:
https://nycshs.files.wordpress...he-niagara-story.pdf
https://nycshs.files.wordpress...016/01/niagara21.pdf
https://nycshs.files.wordpress...dtestingniagaras.pdf
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Awesome Daniel, thanks for posting.
As a baseline, it cost the A1 Steam locomotive Trust somewhere around $4.2 - $5 million (exchange rate fluctuations) and 14 years to build the Tornado, a much smaller locomotive than a Niagara.
The T1 Trust is estimating $10 million and shooting for a 2030 completion.
However, the most important part of this kind of venture is effective fundraising.
Rusty
GenesisFan99 posted:Hot Water posted:GenesisFan99 posted:Hot Water posted:GenesisFan99 posted:Thank you for the resources guys, very helpful. I see now the historical society is printing a book that may have them.
Yes, although not out yet, that book, Know Thy Niagaras, will be the most comprehensive book ever published on the NYC Niagara class locomotives.
Sounds exactly like what I'll need.
I haven't been able to find a figure for the cost of PTC systems in steam locomotives.
Probably because they REQUIREMENTS have not yet been fully established, yet.
I'm told that if a steam locomotive were to travel above 79 mph, it needs to be equipped with cab signalling and an automatic stop system, which would seem to be PTC in this case.
Not just stem locomotives but, ALL trains, anyplace throughout the nation that travel over 79 MPH, MUST have some sort of cab signal, automatic trains stop/control system, as mandated by Federal law (which goes back many, many, many years), long before the current PTC requirement.
What I'm trying to do here is see how much it would cost to build a Niagara.
Most likely millions and millions of dollars, and many, many, many years. I suggest to look up the PRR T1 Trust ordination, that has already begun construction of a totally new PRR T1 duplex 4-4-4-4.
While yes, I'm just 16 years old, we all know young guys are needed. I plan to get my FRA certification
What "FRA certification"?
as soon as I'm 18 and I plan to volunteer with the steam crew at my local railroad museum, which runs an oil-fired 2-6-2.
The locomotive would be oil-fired and be the Poppet Valve version, dubbed the "Super Niagara".
Well, don't hold your breath.
I have seen the T1 campaign and what I meant by find out the cost is to obtain the blueprints and find out how much it would cost to cast each part, for a total cost of building. I'm prepared to take years to build complete the project, doing all that is necessary to make it happen. I don’t see anything as impossible, but there’s no denying that actually building a Niagara is an enormous project.
As for FRA certification, that would be the FRA engineer’s certification, in order for me to be able to operate locomotives. I think anyone building and/or maintaining a steam locomotive should know not just how everything works, but how to fire and operate one, being certified to do so.
Just a suggestion from my experience, you should first REALLY learn more about their design and how to fire a steam locomotive, before you EVER try and operate one.
I know I have much to learn and I hope this can become a reality.
Thanks for the suggestion Hot Water. Part of the plan is for me to study as much as humanly possible and most importantly volunteering at the Orange Empire Railway Museum. They offer all the training I could ask for. Since I plan to make this an oil fired locomotive, the locomotive I would learn on is an oil fired locomotive, as I know oil firing can be difficult for both the engineer and the fireman. The fireman has to adjust to everything the engineer does. It would definitely make sense to fire first then learn how to run the locomotive as I'm reading now that is generally how things are done.
The next step for me is to get my driver's license and begin talking to the T1 Trust to see what their plan for the Franklin Poppet Valves are. I also plan to talk to the Strasburg Railroad and the UP Steam Crew in order to learn as much as possible.
I do really appreciate you offering your knowledge as I know you are a 4449 fireman and thus know all about steam, how it works, and firing a big oil-fired 4-8-4. I hope you don't mind so many questions being asked, there's just so much kids like me don't know as steam was much before our time. It would seem my generation has yet to realize the importance of preserving history, specifically steam.
Rusty Traque posted:As a baseline, it cost the A1 Steam locomotive Trust somewhere around $4.2 - $5 million (exchange rate fluctuations) and 14 years to build the Tornado, a much smaller locomotive than a Niagara.
The T1 Trust is estimating $10 million and shooting for a 2030 completion.
However, the most important part of this kind of venture is effective fundraising.
Rusty
You're right, the T1 guys seem to know this well. Any suggestions on how to effectively fundraise when and if that point is reached? I'm sure I'd learn that in college, but always good to get suggestions.
GenesisFan99 posted:Thanks for the suggestion Hot Water. Part of the plan is for me to study as much as humanly possible and most importantly volunteering at the Orange Empire Railway Museum. They offer all the training I could ask for. Since I plan to make this an oil fired locomotive, the locomotive I would learn on is an oil fired locomotive, as I know oil firing can be difficult for both the engineer and the fireman.
An oil fired steam locomotive is not difficult for the Engineer. However, it can be VERY difficult for the Fireman, especially if the Engineer doesn't know what he's doing, and that also applies to a coal burning steam locomotive!
The fireman has to adjust to everything the engineer does.
Exactly.
It would definitely make sense to fire first then learn how to run the locomotive as I'm reading now that is generally how things are done.
Again, exactly. I mean, if one doesn't even know how a steam locomotive works, and also doesn't know how to fire one,,,,,,,well that person would NOT make a very good Engineer.
The next step for me is to get my driver's license and begin talking to the T1 Trust to see what their plan for the Franklin Poppet Valves are. I also plan to talk to the Strasburg Railroad and the UP Steam Crew in order to learn as much as possible.
I do really appreciate you offering your knowledge as I know you are a 4449 fireman and thus know all about steam, how it works, and firing a big oil-fired 4-8-4.
UP Challenger #3985, was even more of a "challenge" than either UP 844 or SP 4449.
I hope you don't mind so many questions being asked, there's just so much kids like me don't know as steam was much before our time. It would seem my generation has yet to realize the importance of preserving history, specifically steam.
Not a problem, ask away.
Hot Water posted:GenesisFan99 posted:
I do really appreciate you offering your knowledge as I know you are a 4449 fireman and thus know all about steam, how it works, and firing a big oil-fired 4-8-4.
UP Challenger #3985, was even more of a "challenge" than either UP 844 or SP 4449.
Are articulated locomotives more difficult to fire in general, or are you just speaking to that particular engine?
SouthernMike posted:Hot Water posted:GenesisFan99 posted:
I do really appreciate you offering your knowledge as I know you are a 4449 fireman and thus know all about steam, how it works, and firing a big oil-fired 4-8-4.
UP Challenger #3985, was even more of a "challenge" than either UP 844 or SP 4449.
Are articulated locomotives more difficult to fire in general, or are you just speaking to that particular engine?
Just that particular locomotive, since it was converted from coal to oil burning (as a coal burner, she was relatively easy). Once 3985 was "re-drafted" for more intake air in the firebox, plus the addition of MUCH MORE firebrick (in about 2002) around the side sheets and door sheet in the firebox, she was much easier to fire.
So it sounds like the project will cost around $12 million, based upon some estimates. The T1 Trust has let us know their drivers will cost $192,000, so we expect a similar figure for 8 79" boxpok drivers. Each of the T1 drivers costs $24,000. Lots of budgeting and fundraising ahead.
We have recently obtained drawings for the PT-6 tender and hope to figure out a way to adapt it for oil. The plan is to increase water capacity by shrinking what would have been the coal bunker in order to eliminate the need for water tenders on shorter trips.
GenesisFan99 posted:So it sounds like the project will cost around $12 million, based upon some estimates. The T1 Trust has let us know their drivers will cost $192,000, so we expect a similar figure for 8 79" boxpok drivers. Each of the T1 drivers costs $24,000. Lots of budgeting and fundraising ahead.
I would recommend to look closely at the various "experts" that are now involved with the T1 Trust project. Without such highly knowledgable & experienced people, you will have a VERY hard time raising any funds.
We have recently obtained drawings for the PT-6 tender and hope to figure out a way to adapt it for oil. The plan is to increase water capacity by shrinking what would have been the coal bunker in order to eliminate the need for water tenders on shorter trips.
Sorry to disagree but, it is far more beneficial to have a LARGE fuel capacity and add an auxiliary water tender (which is exactly what was done with C&O 614). Remember that it is generally a 10 got 1 ratio of water consumption to fuel consumption. Also, you really want to size your on-board fuel and water supply to run at least 250 to 300 miles without replenishing either.
Hot Water-about the tender. I can see where you're coming from, the idea is just to keep costs down. The coal bunker on the PT-6 tender is huge, plenty of room to be shrunk a bit as we probably wouldn't need that much oil. I'm thinking we'll end up purchasing or building an aux. water tender anyway, but always good to explore ways to cut costs.
Completely agree on your point about raising funds. I'll see what I can do to ask the T1 guys.
https://books.google.com/books...ge&q&f=false
A good way to lose an hour or two.....
ToddModel posted:https://books.google.com/books...ge&q&f=false
A good way to lose an hour or two.....
Thank you, really appreciate it.
We are planning to cast the NYC herald and number plate first. I emailed Wasatch and we are waiting to hear what it will cost.
Why are you doing yet another 4-8-4 (and not a particularly good-looking one at that), when you could re-create one of, if not THE most iconic steam locomotives ever built, the NYC J-class Hudson?
smd4 posted:Why are you doing yet another 4-8-4 (and not a particularly good-looking one at that), when you could re-create one of, if not THE most iconic steam locomotives ever built, the NYC J-class Hudson?
We felt that a 4-8-4 would be better because it has more power than a Hudson. There's quite a difference between almost 7000 horsepower and 5500 horsepower. In our budgeting, we found that a Hudson would be 4 million cheaper, and we felt that 4 million more for that extra horsepower was worth it. There's also another group out there that wants to build a Hudson, so we don't want to give them competition.
GenesisFan99 posted:smd4 posted:Why are you doing yet another 4-8-4 (and not a particularly good-looking one at that), when you could re-create one of, if not THE most iconic steam locomotives ever built, the NYC J-class Hudson?
We felt that a 4-8-4 would be better because it has more power than a Hudson. There's quite a difference between almost 7000 horsepower and 5500 horsepower. In our budgeting, we found that a Hudson would be 4 million cheaper, and we felt that 4 million more for that extra horsepower was worth it. There's also another group out there that wants to build a Hudson, so we don't want to give them competition.
Competition? Why don't you combine forces?
Seriously, we don't need another 4-8-4.
What's wrong with another 4-8-4? I don't see the problem with it. The 4-8-4 is one of the best designs ever created. It's fast, powerful, and versatile. Shows some of the best in American engineering in the past.
You say the Niagara isn't anything special looks-wise, and this is true. It's average. But so is the FEF-3. The designs are very similar, both of them being ALCO products.
We also don't need another Hudson either, as that is what a J3a would be, just another Hudson.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. But with that said I would love to see anything NYC.
superwarp1 posted:Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. But with that said I would love to see anything NYC.
I like the looks of the J3a, but the point I was making is the Niagara is yes, just another 4-8-4. The J3a is just another Hudson. Looks don't necessarily matter when talking steam, as the ACE 3000 suggests.
Once we cast the number plate and herald, the plan is to get the frame started. The T1 Trust's 3D designer had a good point when he said few will take us seriously until we get something like the frame done.
I'm pleased to report we now have Know Thy Niagaras on order, so drawings will soon be in-hand.
GenesisFan99 posted:.........We also don't need another Hudson either, as that is what a J3a would be, just another Hudson.
You obviously haven't talked to very many of the vast legions of New York Central Hudson fans! 
I think fan appeal would be an important priority when a project is so dependent on fund raising! 
Jim
Jim Policastro posted:GenesisFan99 posted:.........We also don't need another Hudson either, as that is what a J3a would be, just another Hudson.
You obviously haven't talked to very many of the vast legions of New York Central Hudson fans!
I think fan appeal would be an important priority when a project is so dependent on fund raising!
Jim
Yes, fan appeal is important, but we are not building a Hudson, that's just the way it is. We have already paid to get blueprints and it would be hard to reorganize to build a Hudson if we wanted to.
How many 4-6-4 are still out there. And better yet running?
Dominic Mazoch posted:How many 4-6-4 are still out there.
Lots of Hudsons saved, but not one NYC!
And better yet running?
None, to my knowledge. The last operational Hudson was the CPR #2816, now stored inside the Calgary Shops.
GenesisFan99 posted:I'm pleased to report we now have Know Thy Niagaras on order, so drawings will soon be in-hand.
You realize that you will need several hundred drawings, right? Every single part on the engine will need a detailed drawing, with all dimensions, sometime even down to the bolts used.
smd4 posted:GenesisFan99 posted:I'm pleased to report we now have Know Thy Niagaras on order, so drawings will soon be in-hand.
You realize that you will need several hundred drawings, right? Every single part on the engine will need a detailed drawing, with all dimensions, sometime even down to the bolts used.
Yes, we realize this. That book will give us many of the drawings we need.
GenesisFan99 posted:smd4 posted:GenesisFan99 posted:I'm pleased to report we now have Know Thy Niagaras on order, so drawings will soon be in-hand.
You realize that you will need several hundred drawings, right? Every single part on the engine will need a detailed drawing, with all dimensions, sometime even down to the bolts used.
Yes, we realize this. That book will give us many of the drawings we need.
Just curious, when you say "we realize this", just who/whom is the "we" you are referring to?
GenesisFan99 posted:smd4 posted:GenesisFan99 posted:I'm pleased to report we now have Know Thy Niagaras on order, so drawings will soon be in-hand.
You realize that you will need several hundred drawings, right? Every single part on the engine will need a detailed drawing, with all dimensions, sometime even down to the bolts used.
Yes, we realize this. That book will give us many of the drawings we need.
No, I don't think it will.
There's a big difference between drawings and blue prints. The drawings that you are going to get in a book are probably great for a model builder. Not so much if you want to know the exact diameter and length of the main crankpin, though, or the exact dimensions of the drawbars, or the exact size and shape of a driver box. Or the size of the shoes and the taper of the wedges. You get the idea.
