Nicholas Smith "blowing out" RMT

Thanks, but I will pass.  Like you say, those are good prices but not blowouts.  I've bought NIB BEEPs (recent models with the tether) for as little $54 - they may have been available for less for all I know.  Still, if I needed any I might bite on this hook, but I don't.

Thanks for posting this. I've been looking for a "B&O Bang" and was able to order one.

 

 

I miss the super-sales at RMT, those were really cheap!   It appears we may be missing RMT totally, that's a shame...

 

When I was down at NS a couple of months ago, I noticed they had a lot of RMT around, apparently they're trying to thin the herd.

 

Maybe I should have my own "super sale" and sell my ore cars at $20/ea.   I still have a bunch NIB, though about 30 of them have had significant time on the rails.

 

Amazing, in one thread many are lamenting the potential (yet unconfirmed) loss of RMT and in this thread people are saying they are not cheap enough even with a (slight) markdown

 

And we wonder why stores and manufacturers are giving up.

 

I saw that last super sale, and while that was cheap, I didn't like the road names...I suppose I should've bought them anyway and repainted them....I passed on the GG-1 since I have one anyway even though that was pretty cheap....hind sight....

Of course, you're right.  We should pay the MSRP of whatever the manufacturers are asking, silly us!   I'm sure you bought a lot of the RMT stuff at the MSRP.

Quite frankly... paying MSRP for this stuff nowadays is ridiculous.  Why should the consumer be funding an antiquated distribution system that supports a "distributor" who adds no value whatsoever to the consumer in today's world with highly inflated and meaningless MSRP price-points? 

 

Do you go to the distributor for post-sales service?  No.  Do you call the distributor directly to assist in obtaining your product of choice?  No.  Do you even know who the distributor is for your LHS?  Highly unlikely.

 

Plain and simple... the distributor is an artificial -- and unnecessary -- part of the supply chain that only exists because the importer (in our case Lionel, MTH, Atlas-O, or whomever) CHOOSES to not do business directly with "smaller" dealers, small "Mom and Pop" train shops, or the consumer directly.  It's an archaic distribution model at best -- now that shipping has evolved to its current state and communication technologies are as efficient as they are today.

 

And you're suggesting we should support that outdated distribution channel by paying MSRP?  No thank you.

 

Unfortunately, RMT got caught up in a decision to sell directly to the consumer AFTER establishing a dealer network.  And earlier this year, their blow-out prices were very likely WAY under their former dealer cost numbers... and those prices were probably much lower than we'd see if RMT were to ever refresh its warehouse inventory with newly produced merchandise.

 

$10 per ore car again?  Not likely.  OTOH, nobody here wants to pay $50+ for an ore car either.  I still maintain that the NS price of $25/car isn't that bad at all.  But if someone were to offer them for $10/car again, you'd be a fool not to jump at it (if you like that kind of product).

 

People typically only pay MSRP when the overall "experience" is so great that they don't mind parting with their hard-earned money at that price-point.  It's a very personal decision for sure.  But by and large, I don't categorize the "experience" we typically encounter at toy train dealers and shops as so overwhelmingly great that I'd pay MSRP.  The ONLY exception might be if a shop were the last place around that had an item I was searching for in stock.  And that has occasionally happened... but shame on me for waiting too long to move on something. 

 

David

So, obviously, the solution is to do away with ALL retail shops and deal direct with the manufacturers and everything will be cheap once again.

 

BTW: If a manufacturer has something listed for one price, then continually has it on "sale" for a lower price, that lower price effectively is the actual MSRP and the higher price was an artifical number to make you think you are getting a deal.

 

Rusty

If you re-read his post, he specifically said in regards to the distributor model:

 

"the importer (in our case Lionel, MTH, Atlas-O, or whomever) CHOOSES to not do business directly with "smaller" dealers, small "Mom and Pop" train shops, or the consumer directly."

 

From what I read out of that, he's suggesting that the distributor model is a middle-man that contributes to the overhead costs that are factored into the product MSRP, and the importers deal directly with all the dealers & hobby shops instead of those stores having to deal directly with the distributors.

Of course not... If you read my post, you'll see I was referring primarily to the distributor/wholesaler who's adding no value whatsoever to the deal in most cases -- at least from the perspective of the end-consumer. 

 

In short EVERYONE in the supply chain needs to "earn" their position in the supply chain, otherwise the consumer doesn't need them... and most importantly, shouldn't be paying for their existence.

 

Value means different things to different people.  Some folks are fine paying MSRP to their LHS, perhaps simply because of a "convenience factor" -- i.e., the ability to walk into the store and SEE something before they buy it.  Or perhaps the ability to enact an easy exchange if something is wrong or doesn't meet their initial expectation(s).  Or post-sale service to fix something (although that's becoming more of a challenge at the LHS level with today's electronics).

 

There's no free lunch in life.  So all of these value elements come at a cost.  Each of us can figure it out quickly whether their LHS brings value to the table... and if not, we pick up the phone or click on a website to buy elsewhere -- all at a cost, of course.    It's MUCH more difficult for the consumer to "see value" with respect to the distributor/wholesaler, 'cause they never interact with them.

 

David

John,

 

Yes... you got it right... that's exactly what I was referring to.  Thanks for helping to clarify that! 

 

David

How can it be antiquated if the manufacture can't support the overhead to sell directly to the retail shop, and the retail shop doesn't have the resources to hold inventory in their shop.  Hence the need for the middle man.

 

The reality in my opinion is not the fact there is distributors (by the way that model still works fine in other industries) but rather as one mentioned the Train industry is sick.

 

There are several larger retailers who do both, retail and distributor.  The small retail stores need them to service their smaller customer base.  This problem is far more complex that you play it out to be.

 

As best I can tell, manufacturers needs the cash flow that distributor give them.  They can not afford to have too much inventory sitting unsold waiting for a buyer.

 

If all 11 or 12 train distributors told O gauge manufactures they are no longer carrying trains, I think you would see instant Chapter 13 from the manufacturers.  My opinion, but you can see the pressure manufactures put on distributors and retailers.  As I said in a different post it is a shark tank.

 

 

Russell, the old RMT "middleman" stock is likely the several years old "blue box" stuff & dates to before the Aristo agreement.  So, it was falsely high priced & dealers like Chris Gans @ Nicholas Smith have had extreme difficulty in getting rid of it.

 

I can't really blame RMT, they probably knew Arista was going to Dump and 

Isn't Arrista figures? What do they have to do with RMT?

Do you really mean Aristo-Craft?

 

the "figures" outfit is ARTTISTA.

This is correct, it was a few years ago that consumers could buy direct at the same cost, or a few pennies cheaper than a LHS could purchase from distributor.  So how can a LHS sell the product at even a minimal profit if they buy at the same cost the customer can get it direct from RMT.  As time went on the price even dropped a few dollars more.  So even the distributor is stuck.  Basically the model switched from the retail model to direct sale.  Either the product wasn't worth what they thought it should sell for, the economy took its toll, or a combination of both as time went on.

 

If cash flow was needed, there was no time to allow the retail model to play out with the new K-Line type RMT stuff.  G

I may had said this before but Lionel is not a "manufacturer"
No more than women's clothing designers.

They are product marketers and top tier distributors who order to spec.
Sometimes they actually get it as ordered. LOL

Not much different than brokers.
The only reason that they use additional distributors is so they can save/make more money by eliminating/reducing  warehousing/distribution costs.
The second tier distributors do add "value" but to Lionel, not to the consumer.
So in this case MSRP is a "farce" because it is not the manufacturer who is "suggesting" the price.
Doesn't change things all that much, but it is helpful to consumers to know how things get to the stores these days.

And everything is negotiable at all times.
Just ask your kids. LOL.

Just MHO.
FMH

quote:

This is correct, it was a few years ago that consumers could buy direct at the same cost, or a few pennies cheaper than a LHS could purchase from distributor. 

 

In the early 1970's, I was buying MPC trains through mail order for less than my local hobby shop could buy it. I was friendly with the owner of our local shop, and he told me so.  I think I was buying most of my MPC from Glen Uhl at the time.

Folks, if we set aside the discussion about distributors for a moment, let's just use the RMT ore cars as an MSRP pricing example here...

I think I read somewhere -- perhaps on the RMT website when more inventory was still in stock -- that the ore car 2-pack had an MSRP of $120 (or $60/car) which is absolutely ludicrous.  Sorry, there's no way ANYONE is going to pay that.  And if that's the price that was "suggested" to make everyone in the supply chain "successful", then that is indeed a scary -- and ill-fated -- business model.

I still know of one small LHS that is selling -- or should I say, trying to sell -- the ore car two-packs for $79.95 (or $40/car)!  Probably not gonna happen, but if Nicholas Smith is now clearing them out for $25/car, that could well be very close to their original cost.  I have no idea... But let's remember RMT was blowing them out for $10/car in early 2013.

That should give us all an insight into how are trains are priced... what we typically pay for them... and what it costs to have them manufactured! 

Now who wants to run out and pay MSRP???

David

I must admit, I jumped on a ton of those ore cars at $10/ea, I was pretty sure we'd never see those prices again!  I don't expect manufacturers to match those prices, but I also don't plan on spending $50-60/ea for the same type of car, that's simply not going to happen.  I doubt most other folks here are going to spend that either.

 

       
       

You and me both, John!  The thing that was great about $10/car was the wonderful feeling that you could buy 20 of them and walk away with a huge box-load after just spending $200.  That's such a refreshing change from making a trip to the LHS and spending $1000 with just a small box of something in each hand!

David

I understand that pricing was an anomaly, but yes, it was very nice.   I went back to the well several times.  The great thing about the ore cars is they are pretty much scale size as well!

The manufacturer comment is a mute point, Lionel use to be, and for example case it is their product.

They set MSRP not the distributor.  They set it knowing the retail market they are planning to use.

 

The LHS also like distributors.  Most locally owned don't have resource to stock the catalog, but they can get what they need from the distributors to met customer needs.  G

GGG,
I am having a hard time following your point.
What is it you are trying to say?

Why again is it a mute point about Lionel?
Because the "original" Lionel actually made their product?

There will always someone willing to pay MSRP but not sure why that is relevant either.
And not all LHS's like the fact that they can not buy direct either.
Some may, but still not understanding why that is relevant either.
Or that some people are willing to pay more for Lionel.

The only way to find the low prices around here is if somebody is unfortunately closing the store.

 

Andrew

GGG, I won't pay $100 dollars for a caboose no matter who makes it and $70 dollar rolling stock only if it actually does something like the aquarium car or searchlight car or something unusual like a Schnabel or that monster Atlas Suburban Propane tank car or maybe if it's a decent passenger car I want. I can almost guarantee if Lionel tried to sell similar ore cars for $120 for a 2 pack people would not be lining up for them at that price neither.

 

Jerry

I guess this whole topic has gotten convoluted.  My original points were about RMT price points and the shift from Retail to direct sale.

 

FMH, your point about Lionel not being a manufacture is the red herring.  I am simply point out that the "Train Company's" whether an actual manufacture, or what ever term you want to call them set the MSRP price.  Not the retail store or the distributor if there is one.

 

Many items are factored into what the MSRP is set at.  They factor in cost, profit they desire, and customer demand.

 

The point is when a Train Company sells direct to the public at the whole sale price, they can no longer expect the retail chain to stock there product.  It is impossible to make money.  Additionally some companies, like RMT kept lowering the price with continuing sales.  That is usually a sign of high supply and low demand.

 

Common Jerry, just because you are too cheap....:-)  Just joking but in the retail market Lionel's name is gold.  A person who wants a Caboose or a Lionel Steamer will pay close to Lionel's MSRP, but a Williams equivalent or better engine at the same MSRP, the consumer won't buy it.  That was my point.  The fact is Lionel has $100 cabooses and they sell, the same person that buy it won't pay 60% of that for a RMT caboose.

 

The really sharp Retail LHS owners didn't fall in to the trap.  Several Train Companies not Lionel or MTH, show high MSRP and 50-60% discounts for their product.  That is a golden discount for a retailer.  Instead they looked at the product and said can I really sell a Bachmann G set for that price, or a RMT Beep at that price, or a Williams conventional engine at that price.  The answer was no.  Does it look good when you walk into a store and see an item normally sells for $1000 but today  you can buy it on sale for $500...sure, until you realize you can buy it any day for $500, and if you look hard you can get it for $450.  G