NKP Berks Paint Scheme

645 posted:

Rule of thumb is in winter locomotives are not washed as often (if at all) once temps hit freezing. Are the pictures you are looking at with no white trim taken in winter while white trim were in summer? Just a thought here.

I'm sure someone more knowledgeable about the NKP will be along sooner or later to weigh in on this...

Good point. The heavily weathered/black photos do appear to be taking the winter. Most likely, I will end up with the white trim (I'm modeling in service appearance), but I will still like information regardless. 

This looks like summer to me:

I think the actual answer depends on when and which shop the locomotive was last painted.

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

This looks like summer to me:

I think the actual answer depends on when and which shop the locomotive was last painted.

Rusty

You are correct Rusty, or that could be Winter Corn in that picture...........Attempt at Humor here.............................Lol

Another apparent "warm weather" photo:

As to white running board stripe, only an official NKP painting and lettering drawing knows for sure.

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

Another apparent "warm weather" photo:

As to white running board stripe, only an official NKP painting and lettering drawing knows for sure.

Rusty

Maybe contacting the Nickel Plate Historical Society would help answer the question?

Rusty Traque posted:

 

It appears that somebody's Hudson is going to get a nice bath of grungy cylinder condensation if the Hostler has to back the 757 out of the garden before the Hudson's owner goes home. 

Rusty Traque posted:

Another apparent "warm weather" photo:

As to white running board stripe, only an official NKP painting and lettering drawing knows for sure.

Rusty

That's a '55 Chevy in the middle and I believe either a '58 or '59 Chevy on the Left.  (These years are out of my wheel house.)

If that's the case, this photo (which is great) probably depicts these beautiful Berks at the end of their service life.  (Steam stopped in '58 on the NKP, IIRC.)

So this may not be an "in their prime/in typical service" picture.  These Berks may just be sitting there, waiting for the coal strike to be over or waiting to hear their fate.  (Pretty sure that picture is at Bellevue, BTW.)

Somewhere, I THINK I have a color photo of either 759 or 779 coming out of service in Conneaut in late '58.  She was stunningly beautiful and had white running boards, IIRC.

Not withstanding anything I wrote in the post above, I have a LOT of NKP Berkshire pix without white paint on the running boards.  Whether it's just coal dust, dirt, or no consistent railroad wide standard...who knows.

I think you can justify either way....with the white trim or without. 

Whatever you think looks best.

Think I might be able to help out a little...

Great pix, Stoneboro.   I'm trying to think if I've ever come across a photo of #764 before.  Very cool!

Standard practice was white trim on the running boards, foot board step and tires. Frankfort and Conneaut shops painted in silver or white. White was most common. Out-of-service shots of the Berkshires at Bellevue isn't an ideal reference because maintenance has been deferred. The shot of 764 is pretty standard. It didn't take much road grease or grime to obscure the white paint, but it was there. 

Thanks everyone. The engine will be receiving white trim, numbered 756. The white walls will be left off per personal preference. 

I could NEVER figure out why some people have such a problem with white running boards and tires. I agree that for historical purposes, they shouldn't be put on locomotives that never had them, but I think any plain black steam locomotive looks about 1000 times better with the white than without.  Of course I also absolutely DESPISE black wheels on a car or truck.  In the case of the NKP Berks, I think you will find that the Lima Builder's photos also show the white trim.  A can't speak for the Alco built Berks.

Dieselbob posted:

I could NEVER figure out why some people have such a problem with white running boards and tires. I agree that for historical purposes, they shouldn't be put on locomotives that never had them, but I think any plain black steam locomotive looks about 1000 times better with the white than without.  Of course I also absolutely DESPISE black wheels on a car or truck.  In the case of the NKP Berks, I think you will find that the Lima Builder's photos also show the white trim.  A can't speak for the Alco built Berks.

For what it's worth, modelers/historians should NOT rely on manufacturer's "builder photographs", as many of this photos were "enhanced" in order to show detail for the customer. In fact, I believe it was ALCO that even painted the entire side of the locomotive to be photographed a gray color, so that the company photographer obtained much sharper negatives. Many "builder photographs" of steam locomotives show all sorts of extra/fancy paint features, that the railroad generally did NOT use/maintain when in service.

Berkshire President posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

Another apparent "warm weather" photo:

As to white running board stripe, only an official NKP painting and lettering drawing knows for sure.

Rusty

That's a '55 Chevy in the middle and I believe either a '58 or '59 Chevy on the Left.  (These years are out of my wheel house.)

If that's the case, this photo (which is great) probably depicts these beautiful Berks at the end of their service life.  (Steam stopped in '58 on the NKP, IIRC.)

So this may not be an "in their prime/in typical service" picture.  These Berks may just be sitting there, waiting for the coal strike to be over or waiting to hear their fate.  (Pretty sure that picture is at Bellevue, BTW.)

Somewhere, I THINK I have a color photo of either 759 or 779 coming out of service in Conneaut in late '58.  She was stunningly beautiful and had white running boards, IIRC.

It's a 58 on the left.  General Motors was real rich those years. Typically, they did a basic design and then did minor modifications for a couple of years. So a basic body style was good for 3 years. Chrysler caught them with their pants down with the 1957 models, when they brought out the "forward look" with big fins. At that point, the GM 1958 cars were well on their design process. GM kept that basic body style for 1 year and then brought out a whole new design for 1959. We had a 59 Olds with big wrap around windows. Huge car.

Gerry

Love the 58 Chevy. I  had  a girl friend  who's dad had one,  a  black convertible with red leather interior. Both were very nice...

 My dad was a Engineman for CNR back in the 40s & fifties. We had a 55 chevy  with a  standard transmission... Nice car as well.

Berkshire President posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

Another apparent "warm weather" photo:

As to white running board stripe, only an official NKP painting and lettering drawing knows for sure.

Rusty

That's a '55 Chevy in the middle and I believe either a '58 or '59 Chevy on the Left.  (These years are out of my wheel house.)

If that's the case, this photo (which is great) probably depicts these beautiful Berks at the end of their service life.  (Steam stopped in '58 on the NKP, IIRC.)  

So this may not be an "in their prime/in typical service" picture.  These Berks may just be sitting there, waiting for the coal strike to be over or waiting to hear their fate.  (Pretty sure that picture is at Bellevue, BTW.)

Somewhere, I THINK I have a color photo of either 759 or 779 coming out of service in Conneaut in late '58.  She was stunningly beautiful and had white running boards, IIRC.

I remember reading somewhere that steam did in fact end in 1958 on the NKP. However, since NKP thought very highly of its Berkshires, they were placed into storage and not all were immediately scrapped. It was said that the Berkshires laughed diesel demonstrators off the property twice, but ultimately succumbed to the onslaught of diesels due to rising maintenance costs (more labor, parts harder to find). I also remember reading that even after official retirement and placement into storage, a select few Berkshires saw a very small and very limited amount of service up until sometime in 1959/1960. The Berkshires that remained in storage and did not see any service at all beyond their placement in storage were most likely scrapped, as a few were in really poor mechanical condition. In fact, this is why the 765 was saved. NKP didn't really want to save 765 but it replaced a sister for donation to a city because the locomotive that was originally requested was in poor shape. NKP 765 was quietly renumbered to the originally requested number and the city never knew the difference until 765's restoration.

No NKP Berks operated into 1959 or 1960.  There were ten Berks in the Conneaut, OH roundhouse (and a lot more outside in the dead line)after the Conneaut to Buffalo line dieselized.  I photographed the last eastbound steam run on June 30, 1958, headed by 719.  After NKP was all diesel, the ten Conneaut Berks were lubricated every Saturday and a Conneaut diesel switcher moved each one out of their stalls and across the turntable to distribute the lube.  There was the thought that we would see some limited steam activity later in 1958, but the 1958 recession and the steel strike resulted in enough diesels for all freights.

There were 0-8-0's reactivated at Conneaut in mid 1959.  Their use lasted from approximately April through August.  (I don't have the exact dates...)

GENESIS99 is pretty close.    The curtain came down on the 700's in June and July 1958.  The 746 made the last road trip on July 2.  4 Berkshires were kept under steam at Bellevue for a couple weeks but never got the call for another road trip.    765 was fired up at New Haven, Ind. for a couple of days in early December 1958 for stationary boiler service and thus was the NKP Berkshire under steam - by the Nickel Plate.  (I have a copy of the Monthly form showing that.)   A handful of 0-8-0's were put back into service at Conneaut, Ohio, in summer 1959.  Several Berkshires were overhauled at Conneaut on or about May 1958 and were never placed in service.  That included the 755 now on display in Conneaut, the 759 now at Steamtown, and one or two others.  I will get the numbers looked up tonight and will post those.  Yes, completely overhauled and then scrapped.

For painting and striping, just look at a LLW photo of a new NKP S-2, either batch, and you will see white drivers and running boards.  After they were in service, Conneaut, Ohio, backshop used white for the driver trim.  The smaller Lima and Frankfort, Ind. shops used aluminum/silver trim for the drivers- just a local thing. 

NKP S-1 718  and S-2 741 were both overhauled and stored at Conneaut - and eventually scrapped. 

According to Joe Karal,  the Conneaut boilermaker who later did work on GTW 2-8-2  4070, one or more of the RDG 2100's,  Daylight 4449 and NKP 765, the Conneaut Shop was closed in May 1958.  After being notified during his shift that they were done with steam - and them, most of the shop employees could care less about giving the company anything else.  Joe said that he didn't know anything else so he went back to work, driving staybolts for the rest of his shift.

He was a priceless resource for locomotive restorations and had an equal number of priceless stories about the bar fights between different nationalities - a very big issue in Conneaut which also had lots of lakeboat types and shop pranks. There were bars that catered to Fins, Poles, Germans (the machinists), on and on. 

 At least once the piping gang got in a hurry and plumbed up a steamer BEFORE the cab gang had reinstalled the cab.  As this was piecework (a flat sum for the crew that installed the cab)  they "were going to show the so-and-so's who did the piping".  They had the overhead crane set the cab in place - kinda - and then had the crane operator use a set of driving wheels to mash the cab down over the piping.  Undoubtedly some punches were thrown along with a lot of cursing, also.  The piping gang didn't do that again.

Even as an old man, he could beat anyone at arm wrestling.  However, he didn't want to drive to Fort Wayne from Conneaut - over 200 miles.  So member Bob McCown would drive from Cleveland to Conneaut, pick up Joe and haul him to Fort Wayne for a few days work.  Then Bob would drive Joe home to Conneaut and then double back to Cleveland.   This happened dozens of times during 1977 to 1979.  Joe's favorite saying after a days work was "Well, we didn't get much done today but we'll give it hell tomorrow".  Priceless memories...........

All these great NKP stories make me nostalgic. I grew up just down the road from Conneaut ; my memories don't quite reach back to the Berkshires. However, I DO remember NKP Alcos and Geeps blasting through downtown Ashtabula like there was no tomorrow; a sight to warm the heart of a 10 year old. Here are a few more slides from the Nickel Plate archives.

All were taken at or near Fort Wayne IN in the last months of NKP steam; from February through May 1958. Enjoy the memories...

718 may have overhauled in late 1957.  This engine was on the deadline when I photographed Hudson 175 at Conneaut in February, 1958.  741 was overhauled and one of the ten RH engines.  I don't know when the backshop closed, but I do know that 754 was stripped outside, taken inside for overhaul, and never came out and was evidently disassembled inside the shop.  I wanted to photograph all 80 NKP Berks.  I did not realize a few were retired very early, and I had to travel to Brewster, OH to catch some of them, out of service in August, 1958, including 706, 708, 725, and one or two others.  Most of the Wheeling Berks were there, except the five at Conneaut, which were 802, 804, 805, 809, 810, and 814.  The photo of 745 with the solid pilot reminded me that there were a number of them on the east end, including 734, 735,  736, 742, 744, and some others.  This from my memory...

An observation:     it would appear that the NKP Berkshires did not have jacketed smoke boxes. General railroad practice for raw steel was to give them a spray of graphite, producing a silver-ish appearance. But......the Berks' smokeboxes were black. Any one care to shed some light on this issue?

Some really stellar shots. From a recent eBay auction or elsewhere?

mark s posted:

An observation:     it would appear that the NKP Berkshires did not have jacketed smoke boxes. General railroad practice for raw steel was to give them a spray of graphite, producing a silver-ish appearance. But......the Berks' smokeboxes were black. Any one care to shed some light on this issue?

Un-lagged smoke boxes and fireboxes were often painted with graphite mixed with boiled linseed oil, which was then baked on to the surfaces. It didn't really produce a silver color--more of a dark grey.

Ok, Steve, ya got me. Grey it is.

NKP779 posted:

NKP S-1 718  and S-2 741 were both overhauled and stored at Conneaut - and eventually scrapped. 

According to Joe Karal,  the Conneaut boilermaker who later did work on GTW 2-8-2  4070, one or more of the RDG 2100's,  Daylight 4449 and NKP 765, the Conneaut Shop was closed in May 1958.  After being notified during his shift that they were done with steam - and them, most of the shop employees could care less about giving the company anything else.  Joe said that he didn't know anything else so he went back to work, driving staybolts for the rest of his shift.

Even as an old man, he could beat anyone at arm wrestling.   Joe's favorite saying after a days work was "Well, we didn't get much done today but we'll give it hell tomorrow".  Priceless memories...........

I recall working for Ross Rowland when we were restoring the C&O 614 in late 1980. Joe Karal was also involved as basically a knowledge resource.  Joe had a heart attack during the restoration and missed a few days but came back. I still have a copy of one of my checks at $5.63 per hour. 

Joe was a real pistol.

I was a volunteer, along with other members of the Lake Shore Chapter of NRHS located at North East, PA, for the work on NKP 759 after it was returned from Steamtown.  Lake Shore sponsored the first official excursion after the engine was gone over, and this occurred in September, 1968.  At Conneaut, Joe and others led the technical.  As a young kid, it was my job to wire brush the sand dome to make it ready for painting after reinstallation on the engine.  The sand dome was on the roundhouse floor next to the engine.  I was REALLY surprised how large it was "close up and personal", vs. installed on the engine.  There was not too much to fix since the engine had never been operated after its Class 3 at Conneaut.  (It was the last Berk outshopped by the Conneaut Shop.)  I recall that Joe' specialty was setting the valves.  I thought that I would "warm up" to the engine, but I didn't.  On the east end of the RR, there were no 750's or 760's (except 763), and 752 for the local at the end of steam, so I had never even seen a 750 series except at Conneaut.  I would have much preferred to work on a 770, and preferably 779, my personal favorite.

The reason that 752 was used for set offs was it was equipped with an Alco power reverse.  All of the 770's had a Precision hand wheel and so were generally not acceptable (by the engineer) for set off work. 

Hudson5432 posted:

I thought that I would "warm up" to the engine, but I didn't.  On the east end of the RR, there were no 750's or 760's (except 763), and 752 for the local at the end of steam, so I had never even seen a 750 series except at Conneaut.  I would have much preferred to work on a 770, and preferably 779, my personal favorite.

Is there that much of a difference between a "750" Berkshire and a "770" Berkshire?  Not being a die-hard NKP fan, I just don't know.

If this is a model railroader question, and you are talking outward appearances, then the 700-779 all looked alike- once they all had illuminated number boards and mars lights starting in 1950-1951.  700-754 were built without illuminated number boards.  755-779 were built with illuminated number boards.   Mechanically there were notable differences between the S class Alco's (700-714), the S-1's (715-739), the S-2's  (two back-to-back orders of 15:  740-754 and 755-769) and the S-3's (770-779).  The S-2's and S-3's were essentially identical mechanically.

I believe the S3 Berks were a good bit heavier and had some mechanical changes that SHOULD have made them best of the bunch, but they NEVER seemed to get the love from the crews that the S2 Berks got.  Sometimes mechanical objects are greater than the sum of their parts, and the S2 Berks seem to fit into that mold.  I find it interesting too, that as basically the same as all NKP the Berks were, ten years after their demise engine crews could still call out individual locomotives that were better or worse performers than their stable mates.  765's survival is largely based on it being one of the all-time favorites of the Fort Wayne Terminal.

I suspect you never talked to any of the Conneaut-Buffalo crews.  There were a number of S-2's on the east end also, including 740, 743, 746, 748, and 763.  The S-2's were built with Precision reverse gear and I believe they had swinging bells.  A number of S-2's were later retrofitted with the Alco reverse gear.  All of the S-3's had bell ringers, a different cab insulation (which made them better here along Lake Erie), and they were heavier, but not by a lot.

On the east end, 779, "three hooks" (777), and 772 were well liked, along with 774, 778, and 770.  A few of the 770's would run here for a while and then disappear, probably westbound from Conneaut.  The missing 770's were 771, 773, 775, and 776. 

With the excellent NKP maintenance practices, I suspect they all ran about the same, or at least the S-2's and S-3's did.

Of the surviving NKP Berks, wasn't one involved in a fairly serious accident.....and had a bent frame as a result? 

I think I read once that this particular loco was never 100% "right" after the frame was straightened and had some vibration issues at speed.

Can't recall which Berk though......

The real 767 wrecked with a Wabash passenger train at New Haven, IN and it was never quite the same according to some.   Fort Wayne crews that came around the 765 restoration- and subsequent operation- said that the 733 and a couple sisters (all odd numbers in the 730 series) had square wheels and rode rough their entire careers.

I believe Rehor's book references a triple engine wreck with 740, 741 and 742. I think 740 was wrecked more than once as well.

My mom remembered going to New Haven the next morning after the wreck in '51 and said it was a "horrible scene"...

Hudson5432 posted:

I suspect you never talked to any of the Conneaut-Buffalo crews.  There were a number of S-2's on the east end also, including 740, 743, 746, 748, and 763.  The S-2's were built with Precision reverse gear and I believe they had swinging bells.  A number of S-2's were later retrofitted with the Alco reverse gear.  All of the S-3's had bell ringers, a different cab insulation (which made them better here along Lake Erie), and they were heavier, but not by a lot.

On the east end, 779, "three hooks" (777), and 772 were well liked, along with 774, 778, and 770.  A few of the 770's would run here for a while and then disappear, probably westbound from Conneaut.  The missing 770's were 771, 773, 775, and 776. 

With the excellent NKP maintenance practices, I suspect they all ran about the same, or at least the S-2's and S-3's did.

 

 Well, I wasn't there, I'm just going by what I have read from the people that WERE there, Rehor being one the big sources obviously, but also many others.   I've always found it odd that of the surviving Berks, #779 is the ONLY S3, and one wonders if IT would have been saved if it weren't the NKP's and Lima's last new steamer.

Kelly-

The Berkshire Fort Wayne shots are part of a group of slides I am assisting a collector with. He decided to "downsize" a bit and these NKP "Berks" were part of the group. I'm putting them up for auction on Ebay over the next weeks, along with many other vintage NYC, B&O, C&O, and 1940's-1950's Canadian Interurban slides.

Will post a few more here in the near future.