No Chapelon, et. al. in US

In Europe and Great Briton, the emphasis was on speed and efficient use of fuel and water, primarily for passenger use.

In the U.S. the emphasis was on HEAVY HAUL freight over GREAT DISTANCES. Sure, high speed passenger locomotives gained prominence in the 1920s and 1930s. But then the hauling of heavy freight began to force the design of 4-8-2s, 2-8-4s, 4-6-4s, 4-8-4s,

2-10-4s, and massive simple articulated steam locomotives. Locomotive designers where not all that interested in the high speed efficiencies achieved by Chapelon, as they were concerned with reduced maintenance and increased reliability. Thus, three cylinder designs were not that popular on U.S. railroads.

Locomotive builders in the U.S. also did not have the axle loading and clearance restrictions prevalent in Europe and Great Briton, and could thus design massive 2-8-4s, 4-8-4s, 2-10-4s, 2-6-6-4s, 4-6-6-4s, 2-8-8-4s, and 4-8-8-4s, all with one piece cast steel frames.

To put this in perspective with an anecdotal story...

Back in the late 80's, four fellas from England came to ride the New River Train, pulled by the 765. These guys were knowledgeable steam fans and had studied US railroading and our steam engines a great deal. They were quite familiar with the 765, and we spent a lot of time in Huntington the day before the trip talking. They had dozens of GOOD questions and it was obvious they had done their homework. But they had never seen an American steam engine in person.

They were not prepared for what was to unfold the next morning. When they arrived at the station in the morning, I met them there. We walked casually up towards the tracks. It was not possible to see the entire train when we first started walking because the station building was blocking the view. As we got closer to the tracks, the view gradually widened for them until they all suddenly stopped dead in their tracks. One of them pointed to the train, turned to me and said, "Richard! The thing's a bloody mile long! How many coaches are on this train?" When I replied with, "34 cars." they were absolutely astounded! All their years of reading and studying about American motive power had not prepared them for this kind of spectacle.

Before the run, they simply could not believe that the 765 was going to handle this 34-car train at track speed all by herself. In all of England, there was NEVER a steam locomotive built that could do that.

These fellas were special guests of the 765 crew, so we let them ride in the tool car with us on the run. Eastbound on the new River Train, east of Montgomery, the 765 had to work HARD for two hours, with the throttle almost wide open at 45-50 mph. The stack is an ear-splitting series of never-ending cannon shots when working like that. When we arrived at Meadow Creek where we turned the 765, we had a chance to talk. They were all so stunned by the locomotive's performance that they were almost speechless.

American railroading is scaled up by a substantial factor over railroading anywhere else in the world...except perhaps Australia.

Wonderful story!  

And as an off-topic note, I likely would not have seen this discussion at all if not for the "Recent Posts" Feature.

Have to agree on the Recent Posts comment. One of my favorite features of the revamped forum.  As to our English guests. The 765 is a great engine. Imagine if it had been the UP Challenger? Bloody ****!!!!

Hi Guys, for sure American steam is well impressive in size etc.,,but wouldn't it be interesting to see what engineers like Andre Chapelon and the Argentinian LD Porta or David Wardale could have produced with the freedom of US clearances and loading gauge?. The reality is ,steam research and development worldwide got cut off long before it reached its full potential. As for locomotive size, Russian and Chinese locos are huge too. In the railway museum at York in England there is a Chinese loco which is massive and dwarfs the British locos and was built in the Vulcan Works in England for export to China back in the day.  

Great story Rich. Its "horses for course "as they say. Most of your States are bigger than most counties in Europe!!

I would love to have seen the faces of my fellow Englishmen!!!!! 

CHEERS MIKE

Following up on Rich's great story, above; when EMD was in the process of negotiating with the British Rail "powers to be" out of the Derby Technical Center, for the sale of new units to the Foster Yeoman Co., a "ride" was arranged for the men from Derby. The BN was gracious enough to place a business car right behind the set of SD40-2 headend power, for the trip from Chicago to Seattle, on the Pacific Zip inter model hot shot.

Upon departing Clyde Yard in Cicero, the Brits kept looking back over the train, not paying much attention to the three track main line ahead of them. Finally, one of the BN officials inquired as to what they were straining to see behind us. One Brit answered that they were trying to see the end of the train in order to see how long it was. The BN man them showed them the train mack-up, and they all where aghast that the train was so long, and with all those 80+ foot long TOFC cars.

During the crossing of the Rocky Mountains, then the Cascade Mountains with the long Cascade Tunnel, they all got their first experiences with extensive use of dynamic braking.

Great thread!

I love reading these anecdotes!

Andy

Great stories Rich and Jack. People cannot believe the size and pulling power of main line steam and of diesels of today. I rode and chased the N&W 611 J and the 1218, both are awesome machines. I had a chance to inspect one of the new  NS heritage units and was quite impressed. Another incredible machine.

I once read how Caparotti (inventor of the valve gear) saw an American train exclaimed that "your locomotives pull houses, not cars."

Stuart

Rich...

Thanks for sharing a great story!

I think the house comment was made while he was watching stuff on the T&P powered with Lima2-10-4's.  T&P/AFT/SOU/TSRR 610 was in that roup.

Yes, a great yarn Rich. We did have some big steam here, such as the Bayer Garrett, but the US wins hands down with the sheer number and variety of big articulated locos. In modern times though, we probably have the biggest and heaviest trains these days, hauling iron ore in the north west, and coal in the east. Even our typical freight trains hauling containers are always triple headed with about 100 container cars. Next week, I will be riding "The Ghan", from Darwin in the north to Adelaide in the south, a 1800 mile trip through the middle of Australia. This train is sometimes 49 cars long, that's just under a mile in length. Don't think I'll be doing much walking through it!

"Hey, guys?  I've got this great idea to improve the steam locomotive.  It will be the best steam locomotive ever!"

"Great.  Will it eliminate boiler overhauls and the thousands of boilermakers we pay?"

"Well, no.  But it will be the best steam locomotive ever!"

"Will it eliminate all those water towers and the hundreds of water service department employees we pay?"

"Well, no.  But it will be the best steam locomotive ever!"

"Will it eliminate coal towers and ash pits, and the employees working in them?"

"Well, no.  But it will be the best steam locomotive ever!"

"So your perfected steam locomotive still won't be more economical than the diesel?"

"Well, no.  But it will be the best steam locomotive ever!"

"That's interesting.  But we're trying to make a profit here, so we'll just stick with diesels."

That's why.

Good one, John. 

All these "furrin" designers with all their ideas couldn't cope with one thing.  It was called the "567".

EdKing

567....Amen !

Sorry guys but you're wrong. "Furrin" designers couldn't build machines like the 765 to run on their railways because of loading gauge restrictions etc.Not because they didn't have the know how. Heres what the Swiss guys did with an old German Kriegslok 2-10-0. Massively increased its horsepower and it runs cleaner than ANY diesel and produces NO ash. Runs on vegetable oil. Superbly clean and efficient machine. My point is if the guys who did this with this old machine do turned their attention to a loco to match the 765 do you really think they wouldn't have the know how to build something that would way out perform the 765 today ?. Of course they could. 

Anyway check this out.Ever see a cleaner running steam engine. ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIiYh6-TySo       

You might want to check this out too. David Wardales revamped South African Railways "Red Devil",this loco is 3ft 6" gauge. 800 tonnes on her tail effortless.

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVYS7xj3eic&feature=related    DAVY

Brilliant solutions come out of the limitations.  That's what "innovation" is about, at least in one sense.  So many of the massive locomotives in the US were unsuitable for the Northeast because we have our own limitations here.  Boston to Washington is not Roanoke to Cincinnati, and so on.  

I traveled on a Norfolk Southern excursion from Columbus, Ohio to St. Louis with the

Class A, 1218 as motive power. When we were waiting to board one morning, a gawker

asked, looking at the locomotive, "Does that thing have a motor?" My friend replied,

"Lady, that thing is a motor!"