No More MTH Premier Non Powered Units?!?

I am.

It basically makes what I want out of the new catalog cost me $1800, instead of a combo of powered and non-powereds that probably would have rang up about $1000. I'm still probably going to only spend about $1000... and just end up with the powered units I would have bought anyways, and let the other ones go.

 

According to a post on facebook, they said that no one is buying them. My experience with the local shop says otherwise.

I think it has a lot to do with the fact that the constant re-runs means no one needs more powered units, and their capacity issues is hindering their ability to put out anything... so the dummies are the obvious choice to drop, since they're probably the model they make the least on.

All that's speculation, of course.

 

Total bunk.  

 

I just grabbed one of the Lionel BNSF heritage non-power units (i.e., the Burlington/CBQ) from Charlie Ro at York last week.   And just a few days earlier, I purchased all three Northern Pacific diesels (two powered + one dummy) from Nicholas Smith Trains to create a triple-header in a dynamite paint scheme.

 

More likely the real reason is the profit-margins are not as favorable on dummy units.  And in this economy, EVERYONE is looking for ways to optimize both revenue AND profitability.  If you want non-powered units, look no further than the latest Lionel catalog -- they're even offering dummies in the Norfolk Southern heritage series of locomotives.

 

David

I have mixed feelings about this. Since I switched over to scale-wheeled, I have found that you need an extra powered unit for that longer train because wheel-slip sets in. Non-powered units aren't offered in scale-wheel/fixed pilots anyway.

 

That said, it's nice to have the option of a non-powered unit for the sake of appearances.

What really frosts me with this topic is how many diesels in the roadnames I collect haven't been made. Take the Burlington Northern...MTH has really dropped the ball on the BN. No SD40-2s, SD60's (not the widecab version...), GP40's, etc... So what is their excuse for that?

 

The same is true with the Milwaukee Road. No GP30's, GP40's, SD40-2 (regular version), GP38, etc... So know if they make a SD40-2 that I have WANTED for years its just going to be one unit.      

 

That angers me....

 

David

I asked Mike Wolf at York about dummy units and the message is the same. Dummy's are not selling so for now they are not building any.

No one has ever made a dummy steam engine. Lionel has offered unpainted models of some of their steam engines in the past year or so but they have become collector items.

I can't say that I'll miss the unpowered units -- they were never offered with fixed pilots, so I never had a reason to buy one.

Never bought the non-powered units anyway, these units were expensive considering that they had nothing in them.  I much preferred to purchase two powered locomotives with different road numbers since they were only about $100 more than the dummy.

I am a big fan of non-powered diesels and was sad to see them not offered in the Premier line in this catalog. But it seems an easy determination to make as to adequate customer demand and  an easy fix if the demand is sufficient. IF there is no demand, it was an ommission well made.

I love my dummy unit Santa Fe 8-40cw by mth premier, which I got a year ago.  Its awesome to look at, has a headlight with onoff switch, but I didn't need it to be powered since it always runs with other powered units.

 

I'd buy it again.  I hope MTH continues to offer dummies.

I'm certain that Williams offered matching steam dummies with their scale Hudson in different road names back in the early 1990s or so.  I remember having a full color mailing flyer from them.

Glad I got my MTH BNSF Dash 9 dummy last month!!! It may be one of the last ones for awhile.

 

My biggest concern with this new strategy is when (I know they're coming...please!!!!) the BN SD40-2s are made with PS 3.0. Since the prototypes were run with several together I was planning on getting the dummy for certain.

No one was buying conventional either. Thats why Williams is still in buisness!

  Ed

Concerning the Burlington Northern SD60 diesels : there were only 3 road numbers for the BN SD60s, they were returned to EMD, the units were awkwardly patched, then they were leased by the Soo Line.

 

BN 8300, 8301, 8302

 

http://www.thetrain.de/pics/mo...%20real%20BN8300.jpg

 

In order to make a Non-Powered unit, it has to be the road number 8303.

 

Andrew

The BN SD40-2 was only made in 2000 with original protosounds with just one variation of the BN 1990's paint scheme.

 

There are more versions of the BN scheme and it can be offered in P.S.3.

 

Andrew

The non powered units come in extremely useful when teaming them with Legacy powered units and vice versa.  For instance, a non-powered U50C would look great running with the Lionel DD35A for those who have not connected the additional electronic components to run DCS locomotives with Legacy.  They also work well just to have some idle locomotives around the layout as background items for the powered ones!  I just wish MTH would reconfigure their premier offering to separate out the B units for sale from their EMD E and F unit sets.

I am also disappointed MTH is not offering non-powered units, especially for the NS Heritage Series. If I want several of these from MTH, all have to be powered, which can be expensive, and trains will be hugely overpowered based on the amount of cars (not to mention transformer pull). If MTH had offered the non-powered units with the correct numbers (as opposed to Lionel) I think their sales would be higher than Lionels. I am still upset with Lionel not offering correctly numbered dummy units (and apparently others at my LHS as well). I think both manufacturers missed to boat on this one!

Peoples instead of waiting 6 months for electronic replacement parts from MTH, now have  the opportunity to remove the motors and some gear and sell them as non-power units 

Hey folks,

 

A quick check of MTH dealers indicates those that actually want to move product are selling the typical dummy diesel units at $150... which doesn't seem way out of line in my book.  It certainly beats buying another powered unit at $375-$400 unless you really need the extra pulling power.

 

At $150 we're essentially talking a very expensive "boxcar" of sorts.  But there's also a fair amount of detail in these dummy units that make the $150 street price worthwhile if you're going for that multi-unit diesel look to head up a real long freight train.

 

Don't think dummies will sell?  Just watch how quickly the Lionel NS heritage dummies fly off dealer shelves!!!  And the Lionel BNSF heritage diesel dummies are already getting trickier to locate.  Now that could be the case 'cause production volumes were low... But they're selling nonetheless.

 

David

Dummies are cheap (relatively) layout multipliers. I park one or two on sidings with a string of cars behind them. Looks great. The only problems is when visitors say, "make that one go!". I prefer dummies with lights. My best ones are MTH too, sorry to hear this.

 

Was anyone else struck by the fact that the prices in the MTH catalog seemed a bit high or is it me?

I have a small layout so Dummy units have never been of major interest to me. However, since there was NKP GP-7 in the last MTH catalog, I probably would have bought a dummy unit and maybe flipped shells with another Geep on my roster.

 

For you guys with bigger layouts/club layouts or those going after multiple Heritage units I can see where the dummy units are practical.

 

I wonder if we'll see the prices rise on older PS-1 locomotives in the secondhand market that will get gutted? Seems like that may be a cheaper option than new dummy units anyway.  

 

I also wonder if the "they don't sell" piece comes from dealer feedback? For example dealers who buy both powered and dummy, and inevitably end up with dummy units they have to deeply discount to move. For example a West Coast dealer with lets say, a Lehigh Valley dummy unit. Perhaps it's their fault for buying or overbuying a certain item/roadname. I just wonder if that's where the idea comes from. 

_________________________

No one has ever made a dummy steam engine. Lionel has offered unpainted models of some of their steam engines in the past year or so but they have become collector items.

_________________________

 

In addition to what Brian posted about Williams,  American Flyer offered a double headed freight set (with an unpowered steam engine) in 1939.  Also, there was someone on eBay last year who was selling odds and ends from MTH that included some unpowered engines.

 

Regarding diesel engines, which was the main intent of this thread, I would have to think that MTH knows (in total) what sells well under their brand name and what doesn't.  It is downright silly for any of us to say that MTH (or any of the manufacturers) don't keep track of what does and does not sell.

 

I will throw out there that many of the newer diesel models are relatively large beasts, so it wouldn't suprise me if a lot of folks run only a single engine.  On my layout, although I would always run GP15's and GP35's in pairs, I would only run a single SD70MAC.  It wasn't until I decided to expand the layout and add additional cars that I purchased a second SD70MAC.

 

Jim

One thing I noticed is that the newer GP38's are about one & a half inches longer than the GP-9's. So it could be an issue with the size of the engine consist on a model railroad verses pulling power for a set of freight cars. The new SD-70's or SD-90's are a few inches longer than a GP-9, so maybe that too has something to do with sales.

Some people have a small layout and having two or three diesels to look prototypical won't work on a four foot by eight foot layout that well.

 

Williams by Bachmann still sells unpowered or dummy units, in both sets and by themselves.

 

My thinking is that the unpowered or dummy engines have always been overpriced. I bought a used Williams Shark B unit at a train show for $20.00 and spent another $40.00 on the horn unit and $10.50 for wiring harness to go to the A unit.

 

Lee F.

You have to rely on Lionel for dummies to run with MTH now.

I read this thread with great interest.  I purchase a lot of non-powered units and was disappointed that MTH has not cataloged non-powered Premier units in the last two catalogs.  They discontinued them earlier in the Railking line, though I think that they had a few in the just released catalog.

 

Non-powered units solve a lot of problems and fill many needs on my layout:

 

1.  I'm not a big user of DCS (a discussion for ANOTHER post) so non powered units allow me to build consists of TMCC or Legacy equipped engines with MTH non-powered units

 

2.  Two powered units of any manufacture (and pretty much a single Atlas unit) can pull anything I throw at them on my layout.  And I run long trains...typically at least 27 40' cars.  The non-powered units let me run impressive looking diesel consists of three and four units without the expense and upkeep of all those powered units

 

3.  It also overcomes the issue of similar TMCC and Legacy units which run poorly together as they run at different speeds (Example:  the TMCC PRR and Legacy PRR RS-11's don't run well together)

 

4.  You can easily introduce foreign road power into a consist of engines (which occurs all the time on the prototype today) without the expense of a yet another powered engine and the aforementioned compatibility issues.

 

I spoke with Rich Foster of MTH about this and he gave two reasons for them discontinuing the non-powered units.  First, the cost kept rising, and he felt many people would not pay roughly $200 or so for a non-powered unit.  Secondly, he said they would sometimes order as few as 30 or so non-powered units from the factory and the factory would grumble about manufacturing this low number of pieces.

 

I know some people state they won't spend the money on a non-powered unit.  This is a matter of personal opinion.  I obviously will do so, and when you start buying 4-6 or more dummy units a year, the roughly $200 differential between a powered and non-powered unit really starts to add up.

 

I think comments made on this forum in part have helped to drive up the cost of MTH non-powered units as well.  There were repeated requests on here for lighted dummy units to which MTH finally responded.  I think part of the assumption was that "what the heck, its only a pickup roller, two sockets and bulbs, it'll only cost 10 bucks or so".  The reality is that MTH included a constant voltage lighting circuit, and the actual price increase was about $35.  I personally never saw the need for a lighted non-powered unit as on the protoype, only the lead unit is lit. 

 

In any case, I did point out to Rich that some Lionel non-powered units are listing for around $260 (see the SP SD-40-2T in the latest Lionel catalog) so at a MSRP of $200 for an MTH unit, they are still competitive pricewise.

 

Anyhow, that's my take on it.  Rich pretty much indicated that he would reconsider if he received enough demand for non-powered units.  So if you want to see MTH resume making non-powered units, get in touch with them and let them know.  Heck, make life easy on yourself...just print up this thread, write something to the effect of "I agree" on the top, and throw it in the mail.

 

I think comments made on this forum in part have helped to drive up the cost of MTH non-powered units as well.  There were repeated requests on here for lighted dummy units to which MTH finally responded.  I think part of the assumption was that "what the heck, its only a pickup roller, two sockets and bulbs, it'll only cost 10 bucks or so".  The reality is that MTH included a constant voltage lighting circuit, and the actual price increase was about $35.  I personally never saw the need for a lighted non-powered unit as on the protoype, only the lead unit is lit. 

Well I see the need/want for the lights as it allows for the "dummy" to become a lead unit. 

Also I add Cab interiors to Dummy units that I could NOT add in dual powered units with "China Drive"

  

 

 

 

 

 

In any case, I did point out to Rich that some Lionel non-powered units are listing for around $260 (see the SP SD-40-2T in the latest Lionel catalog) so at a MSRP of $200 for an MTH unit, they are still competitive pricewise.

 

Beyond Competitive since those Lionel Dummies will not have roller pick ups for lights and sound units! To to it off, it willbe difficult to easily obtain parts to do such a conversion as I have experienced with my PRR Gp30!

Plenty of PS1 engines out that there with bad electronics that could be used as dummies.

This news will surely kick up the already ridiculously prices on eBay.

This is what MTH said on Facebook this morning. I posted there how they are angering their customer base. 

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Mr Bonner Thank you for the post and I will pass on your comments . I certainly understand your statement, but MTH is not going to make products that sales figures clearly indicate the majority customers do not want to buy. Perhaps this will change in the future, but it is currently not the case.

Here’s what I had to do…

 

MTH NYC GP-35 dummy

MTH RS-11 NYC Power Unit

New Lionel RS-11 PC Dummy

WBB GP-38 PC Dummy

 

Doing the same with the EL diesels

MTH needs to offer 2 power units with 2 different numbers as an option too.

I’d rather go that route for operating long trains.

 

 

In the current catalog, I was disappointed to not see dummy units.  I would have liked an Ohio Central GP35 dummy to go with a matching powered.  I'm not going to purchase two power units.

MTH premier diesels are available in 3 powered numbers (the item # is the same).

Just an added thought. I think dummies are wanted and needed but the cost must be appropriate. $150 and up seems excessive.

I went to my LHS (Ready to Roll Trains in Miami) yesterday and brought this subject up with the owner. He has a very close relationship with Mike and he was told that the problem is in the lighting. He said that the demand for dummy units is low enough that the cost for wiring harnesses for the lighting is getting really expensive due to the small quantities involved and the supplier isn't real keen to continue making them. He said that he agrees that it's a mistake to discontinue making dummy units and has been and will continue to urge Mike to reconsider this decision. We'll see.

If an operator would like to do switching from both ends of 2 MTH diesels using ProtoCouplers, then both have to be powered with operating ProtoCouplers. The diesels would be operating in full DCS environment.

 

They are not going to offer non-motorized units with remotely operated couplers and lighting, like Atlas O.

 

Andrew

Not necessarily. If you're using the locomotives in back-to-back pairs, such as how geeps are often used out on switch jobs, you could take the electronic coupler off the rear of the powered unit, place it on the front pilot of the non-powered unit, and tie it to the control board of the powered unit via an "umblical cord." Then you can use the pair in switching operations with remote couplers on both ends of the consist. You can also do that with the lighting if you so choose. Before deciding to switch the locomotive to fixed pilots, I was looking at that option for a powered/non-powered pair of RS27's and a similar pair of AC4400W's.

 

I purchased a powered/non-powered pair of Atlas FM Erie-Builts and the non-powered unit had electronic couplers and was set up for lighting, but didn't have any internal electronics. Never got around to setting up the pilot coupler on the non-powered unit to fire off the powered-unit's control board.

How well does it work to put the dummy(ies) in the lead with the power trailing - it would seem to make more power available to pull the train with a better distribution of power and also make the electro-couplers available for connection to the consist.

I have been running trains with dummy  units in the lead.  For example, I run a pair of MTH U-25-B non powereed units ahead of a powered Lionel NYC GP-30.  The lead unit is PRR as it has the cab signaliing equipement, and the second unit is NYC. This represents early PC.  I'm not a fan of the extra cost of lighting the MTH dummy units, but in this case, I took advantage of it to put the dummy unit in the lead.  I use AUX 2 to shut down the light in the Lionel unit.  My latest MTH dummy (a Conrail U-25-B) has a switch allowing you to turn off either the front or back headlight or BOTH.  The signle Lionel unit has no problem pusing the 2 dummy units and hauling about 25 cars

 

My thoughts too.

 

I added battery powered LEDs for lighting in these MTH non-powered units - easier than pickups, etc.

 

Also, they make great less expensive photo props to add variety to a roster for magazine photos. Oops, now the cats out of the bag!

 

 

Jim