No Train Horn Crossing

We have them in many residential areas in North Texas as well.   Several years now.

Here's some of the rules up here:

  Even with a quiet zone, the train engineer may always sound the horn in case of an emergency.  This includes situations when a person or animal is on the track; when any maintenance work is being done; or other potential danger exists. 

   All crossings included in the quiet zone meet the Federal Railroad Administration’s (FRA) Final Rule on Quiet Zones.  This requires all public crossings to have active vehicle gates, flashing lights, and bells to alert motorists of an approaching train.  In addition to active warning devices at the crossing, all crossings also have advanced signing and pavement markings to identify the rail crossing.  This includes an advanced warning sign with a NO TRAIN HORN legend. 
  
    Safety has been enhanced by adding medians or channelizing devices to crossings that did not already have them, except on one-way streets where the gates cover the entire roadway approach already. 

Hush!  

Dan,

That ordinance is in place in allot of of cities and towns, some using specific times of the day or night.

Btw isn't Lakeland the capital of the ground giving way leaving big giant holes.

Dave

There are probably thousands of quiet zones around the country. This is nothing new.

The UP just made where I live, less than a block from a crossing a quiet zone. The UP added 2 gates for a total of four so it is impossible to drive around them. Also built a median at the crossing. And added the NO TRAIN HORN warning signs. Just like Escape Rocks posted. I do and don't miss the noise however!

Local ordinances have no impact on weather a train horn is blown or not. This is regulated by the Federal Government. As described above, there are criteria that must be met to get a quiet zone established.  There are enough quiet crossings now that have been around long enough to determine that the are slightly safer that the traditional crossing. 

David Johnston posted:

Local ordinances have no impact on weather a train horn is blown or not. This is regulated by the Federal Government.

Well, that may be the way it is today. However, long before there was an "FRA", i.e. back in the days of the ICC, most all of the local communities passed "no whistle zones" throughout the Chicago suburban area, dating back to the steam era. For example, the three track main line of the Burlington (called the 'East End' by employees) commuter service between Aurora and Chicago Union Station has been a "no whistle zone" for more than 70 years. 

Some 4 or 5 years ago, the FRA tried to cancel the "quiet zone" practices, and caused such an up-roare, what with public "information sessions" in all the communities, that after pressure from all sorts of elected officials, they finally backed off.

 As described above, there are criteria that must be met to get a quiet zone established.  There are enough quiet crossings now that have been around long enough to determine that the are slightly safer that the traditional crossing. 

Again, throughout the Chicago suburbs, the "quiet Zone" crossing protections have not changed in more than 50 years, i.e. no double gates and no barriers between approach traffic lanes.

My brother lives in Lakeland and we usually stay at a downtown hotel within easy view of the tracks and the Amtrak station. Its a busy double track line with many long freights and there were about six streets that were close together so a look of horn blowing. It was a big project, a couple of streets were closed and they added the special curbs, gates and etc to comply with the quite zone rules. The day it was to go into effect they discovered the gates were too short on one of the streets.

Now that it works makes a big difference.

We've also got several of these here in Bergen county NJ.

Well I have learned something new.  Or perhaps I just wasn't paying attention.  SEPTA's Hatboro line to Warminster crosses a bunch of streets in Hatboro.  Long time residents must be used to it.  However, new condominiums have sprung up occupying former factory buildings along the tracks.  The new residents don't seem to enjoy the horn blowing all the way through town.....LOL

This reminds me of another, off topic story from the '90s.  It seems a tourist line was operating somewhere in the mid-west, as it had been for many years.  A new housing development was built not far from the tracks.  The new residents put up such a fuss, the line was forced to close.....  

Is there a rule if a train is going below a certain speed it doesn't have to blow it's horn? They do a fair amount of switching here by my house, and I have noticed sometimes they do not blow the horn even thou they have activated the crossing and cross it to do a switching maneuver. The signal will be not signalling at time of approach.  Then others sound every-time they set it off and cross or come close to the crossing. 

I used to live in Lafayette, Indiana and they have a crossing on 18th street that is silent.  With all the crossing safety issues, I'm surprised these are allowed.

Steve

RideTheRails posted:

I used to live in Lafayette, Indiana and they have a crossing on 18th street that is silent.  With all the crossing safety issues, I'm surprised these are allowed.

Steve

Why? With all the flashing lights, ringing bells, and lowered gates, idiots STILL drive or walk around the warning devices and get hit/killed by a train. All the additional horn blowing sure doesn't seem to help prevent that (the Engineer is still allowed to blow the horn in any emergency situations).

rtraincollector posted:

Is there a rule if a train is going below a certain speed it doesn't have to blow it's horn? 

No.

Federal law requires that the horn be sounded for at least 15 seconds and not more than 20 seconds while approaching and passing over road crossings.  Therefore, the distance is relative to the speed, and the time is the requirement.  There are no provisions for late night, switching, stopping short of the crossing and then proceeding, etc.  This was enacted by Congress, a group not notably astute in the matter of railroad operating practices.  Railroad rules have been modified to comply with Federal law, and those rules are what directly govern the railroad's employees in their operation of trains.  Thus, it is the railroad that must see to it that its employees properly sound the crossing warning in compliance with its rules, which, in turn, puts them in compliance with the law.  The FRA fines the railroad if field inspectors find violations, and it is up to the railroad to discipline its employees.

Municipalities wishing to enact quiet zones after the enactment of the Federal law (around the year 2000, as I recall) must pay the full cost of Federally required upgrades to crossings and warning devices installed to reduce the ability of motorists to drive around lowered crossing gates.  Options include center dividers, double gates, signs, etc.

Local ordinances which pre-date the Federal law could be challenged in court by railroads.  However, as Hot Water pointed out, removal of long-standing quiet zones can produce massive citizen outrage, and the end result can have serious consequences to the railroad at a later time.  The railroad already has plenty of enemies.  There's no advantage in intentionally making more.  Suburban Chicago crossings typically have sidewalk gates, and I recently observed many with double gates.  I can't say for sure if all crossings have them.

That must not be GCOR. Under GCOR, it's 15-20 seconds prior to entering the crossing, but no more than 1/4 mile from the crossing.

The origin of the GCOR 15-20 sec rule:

"On April 27, 2005, the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA), which enforces rail safety regulations, published the Final Rule on the Use of Locomotive Horns at Highway-Rail Grade Crossings. Effective June 24, 2005, the Final Rule requires that locomotive horns be sounded at all public grade crossings 15-20 seconds before entering a crossing, but not more than one-quarter mile in advance."

Andre

Berwyn, Illinois has 6 BNSF triple-track grade crossings within a quarter mile of each other in its boundaries.  If there were no quiet zones, BNSF, Metra and Amtrak would be sounding the horns constantly through town.  They didn't even do that during the CB&Q days.

Given the number of grade crossings, population and train traffic density, they would probably be sounding the horns pretty much constantly between Berwyn and Downers Grove all hours of the day and night much to the enjoyment of the residents...

Rusty

in san diego county we have much more train accidents where the train can blow the horn then where they can not!

The following was related to me by an NJ Transit supervisor:

A woman out in rural Hunterdon County (NJT Raritan Valley Line) wrote a letter of complaint about the operator of one particular late night train who sounded his horn in a "loud and annoying" manner.  She stated that most "train drivers" sounded short and far less disturbing horn signals.

She was sent a reply stating that after investigation, it had been determined that said engineer appeared to be fully complying with Federal regulations, while the others had not.  "We have sent a notice to all engineers to the effect that horn regulations must be complied with as required by law.  Thank you for bringing this to our attention."

Now, THAT is funny.

I used to live under a runway approach next to a major international airport.  After a while, the only time we heard the planes was when we were on the phone.  I never has one wake me from sleep that I can remember.

I have no sympathy whatever for the people who complain.

I remember a line in one of Joe Collias' books concerning the ordinances forbidding the blowing of whistles in suburban St. Louis:  "Oh, to be disturbed like that again!"

In most cases the railroad was there FIRST. 

My question is why people want to build an expensive home next to an existent noise maker?  Guess they drank the stupid flavored Kool-Aid!

Dominic Mazoch posted:

My question is why people want to build an expensive home next to an existent noise maker?  Guess they drank the stupid flavored Kool-Aid!

Well, for one example; south of Vancouver, Washington alone the Columbia River, there was "prime property" between the BNSF, former SP&S, main line and the river's edge. According to a number of area residents, local realtors sold very expensive property, and customers built many multi-million dollar homes, under the guise of "That is only a single track railroad, and very few trains ever run there." 

Having been through there many, many, MANY times with 4449, and can attest that the horn/whistle blowing would weak the dead! Last time we ran through there, June 2017, low and behold, it is now a "quiet zone"  with no horns/whistles allowed. The grade crossings are literally right in some of those massive homes front yards, but their view of the Columbia River has to be spectacular!

So much for "truth in advertising".

Not to mention the PDX area can FLOOD!

Seems to me if you build a housing developement, or buy a dwelling near a train crossing, freight yard, you do so tolerating, or appreciating the associated sounds.

The airport in Frederick, Md used to have a great air show every other years until houses were built right up to the fences around airport property. The new residents were disturbed by the show and finally put enough pressure on local Gov't that they put an end to it.

Thats sad, but stopping warning whistles, horns, is dangerous!

Jim M Sr posted:

 

Thats sad, but stopping warning whistles, horns, is dangerous!

Heck, just living is dangerous. Especially if you don't pay attention to what you are doing!
We have a town nearby that has had no horn blowing long before I went to work on the RR. I have long retired and in my entire career I know of only one accident at one of the road crossings there. It was a fire fighter responding to a call who went around the flashing lights and gates and resulted in his death. The same thing happens even more so at crossings where the horn is blown.
Did you read the part where in "quiet zones" the horn can still be blown if the crew deems necessary?
I have had so many people cross in front of me when I was blowing the horn, some, if their car had had another coat of paint it would have been hit. In my forty years of service I have yet to see a horn invented that would blow any object out of the way!

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Not to mention the PDX area can FLOOD!

That part of the Columbia River does not flood, i.e. the Washington side east of Vancouver, WA.

laming posted:

That must not be GCOR. Under GCOR, it's 15-20 seconds prior to entering the crossing, but no more than 1/4 mile from the crossing.

Andre

Ha, you caught me, Andre!

You're correct, and I edited my post to show the correct number of seconds.  Thanks for catching me on that.

GOOD!

The FRA pretty much RUINED it with their mandated 4 honks per crossing NO MATTER WHAT.  That's just Ridiculous.

SPSF posted:

GOOD!

The FRA pretty much RUINED it with their mandated 4 honks per crossing NO MATTER WHAT.  That's just Ridiculous.

Yes, it should be six or eight long ones!

SPSF posted:

GOOD!

The FRA pretty much RUINED it with their mandated 4 honks per crossing NO MATTER WHAT.  That's just Ridiculous.

I don't understand this.  Prior to enactment of Federal crossing whistle regulations, railroad rules universally mandated two longs, a short and a long, and specified the distance that this was to be prolonged or repeated.  Thus, at low speeds the rules could have mandated more than four "honks".  The same prolong-or-repeat requirement still exists, but now there is a time component.  

How did the FRA ruin this?

This is the case in Flagstaff, Arizona on BNSF's (Santa Fe) busiest transcontinental route and I believe still the the route with the highest frequency of freight trains in the US.  Coming westbound out of Winslow you can hear the prime movers working as the highest point on the railroad is west of downtown Flagstaff.  However, drifting eastbound downgrade the trains are really very quiet.  

I'm surprised in this location due to the proximity of Northern Arizona University on the south side of the tracks and a very busy Route 66 through the downtown directly to the north.  I believe the reason to silence the horns had to do with the chamber of commerce and all the hotels in the area on what is one of the favorite locations for us desert dwellers to escape the summer heat.

By the same token while watching trains up there, I have heard engineers blowing the horn as needed when you have pedestrians crossing between grade crossings or after the gates are down.  In that regard maybe the ordinances work as it leaves it up the the engineer to make the decision when a horn is necessary and when it's not?  Not being an expert there, I'll leave that determination to the professional railroaders.

As a freshman at West Virginia Institute of Technology, Montgomery West Virginia, residing in Maclain Hall, the C&O west bound passanger train would stop at Montgomery about 1:00 a.m. to 3:00 a.m. depending on how late it was.  Maclain Hall was shaped like a “U” with the open end facing the RR track and the big E8’s would always stop directly in front of the opening “U”.  The diesels would rumble and when it was time to depart, the engineer would always give two LONG blasts of the horn. The diesels would roar to life and start moving and the engineer would blow the horn for the grade crossing and he laid on that horn.  Funny thing was after about six weeks of that, it didn’t bother me any more. 

Larry

McCuskey Hall at West Virginia Wesleyan College in Buckhannon has the former B&O Cowen Subdivision (now Appalachian & Ohio) running right behind it.  Back in 1958, my dorm room was directly opposite and it was very busy, day and night.  The Lumber Street crossing necessitated horn use, and empty hoppers with flat wheels are very disturbing, but by my third night I slept soundly.