Norfolk and Western N&W J-Class 2-Rail options

Daniel - welcome to the 2 rail world.  You’ll be pleasantly surprised about the wide range of available models on the 2 rail resale market.  Quite a few 2 rail N&W J locomotives have been imported over the years. In chronological sequence these include Max Gray, Sunset, Williams, Overland, and Sunset 3rd Rail. The latter 3 came painted ready to run and can be found on eBay from time to time. N&W Christopher can give you his take on the various models.  I’ve seen the Overland J’s on his railroad and they look and run great.  They would be the high end choice.  Typically Sunset 3rd Rail locomotives offer a good balance between detail, operation, and price.  The Williams J was made in brass by Samhongsa but has less detail than the other two.  MTH may have offered a 2 rail version of their die cast J in the 1990's - perhaps someone with knowledge of MTH can offer insight.   Converting an existing scale 3 rail model to 2 rail is an option, but depending on market factors, the conversion cost may exceed what it would cost to sell what you have and buy a 2 rail model. Joe Foehrkolb of Baldwin Forge and Machine offers excellent 2 rail conversion services.  I strongly recommend contacting him if considering a conversion.  Joe frequents this forum and advertises his services in O Scale Trains magazine.   As N&W J's are relatively common on the resale market, you may want to patiently sit back until a good deal comes along at one of the several O scale shows or on eBay.

Ed Rappe

Daniel 

 An Overland N&W J was just listed under  O scale Brass Imports on eBay. 

Ed Rappe: 

Hello Ed,

Thank you very much for your thoughtful and informative reply!  I have built several HO diesels up in the past from Overland drives, and was impressed with the quality and performance.  Knowing that they and several others exist as options helps to build a lot of confidence that I will be happy in O-scale 2-rail.  In fact, I'm listing my HO stuff on ebay as we speak to fund the conversion.

Thanks again!

Regards,

Daniel

Welcome Daniel! To answer Ed, yes MTH made a J in both shrouded and unshrouded.  I definitely know they made a shrouded 2 rail J but I'm not sure about the other.  If you are interested in the Overland I know someone who maybe selling an unshrouded J with 5 matching OMI passenger cars.    

Best of luck.  

I had a unschrouded J by MTH when I was a 3 railer, I don't think they ever produced it in a 2 rail configuration.

Chris

I just finished the conversion of a Lionel N&W J Class to 2 rail last week.  I believe Lionel made this model with slightly undersized drivers.  Other than that, the model is a very smooth running locomotive as a 2 rail engine and looks pretty good to me.

I don't know how rare the Lione model is or what it cost.  This one was the first one I have ever seen.  It has been returned to its owner.

Joe Foehrkolb

Are there any affordable 3-rail options that could be converted

Daniel

What is your definition of affordable?

The least expensive option would be to buy an MTH 2 rail version of the J if you can find one.  There have been 2 production runs of 2 rail Js from MTH with ProtoSound 2.  The First was in 2004 and the most recent in 2008.  Both have the 3 volt version of the Proto 2 electronics for AC or DC conventional operation.

Given the time that has elapsed since the last run of MTH Js and the interest in the prototype I would say that it is an excellent candidate for a reissue with Proto3.  If you can wait that would be your easiest option since it would come with DCC capability already installed. 

Take a look at the MTH product locator to see what they have made in N&W steam.  The -2 at the end of the product number indicates the 2 rail version.

http://www.mthtrains.com/searc...%26amp%3B+Western%22

You can separate the Js into 2-rail and 3-rail runs and skip the old Lionel post-war J as it is nowhere near scale.

Oldest J is Max Gray 2-rail. Not that detailed and open frame motor. Next is Sunset J from 1979. Pretty nice model w/can motor. Then Williams, MTH and Lionel all did a J in 3-rail in the 1990s. The MTH and Lionel are die-cast. The Williams has a brass boiler and tender but the entire nose assembly is a die-casting. Finally Overland did 4 different Js around 2001, 3 streamlined and a J1 "Warbaby" (enshrouded J), each limited to a run of 100 pieces. These are the nicest Js produced in 2-rail. MTH copied the Overland J1 to make a die-cast J1. None of the 3-rail Js can compare to any of the 2-rail Js (in my opinion) mostly because the valve gear and side rods are flimsy and cheap. They also fail at the trailing truck. 

I am not an N&W modeler, but have the Williams J as it came in 2- rail, and have been quite happy with its appearance and smooth running.  I did have to remove the flywheel to get it to run silently.  I have heard it is not accurate, but the only deficient area I have noted is the cylinder casting, and I can fix that.  I did move the tender truck side frames inboard a bunch - a trivial modification.

I paid $850 the week before the price drop, because a friend insisted that it was a good deal.  He felt guilty afterward, and gave me $300 worth of parts.  You can get these things today for $300 if you look hard, already 2- rail and beautifully painted.

You have some good choices. I run the Overland and MTH versions on my layout.

I do like the Overland the best but I'm happy with the MTH as well. I wouldn't rule out having a Lionel converted someday if I'd find one for the right price. If MTH made the model in PS3, I'd probably get one of those.

I could pick on details on all of the available models. 

You also have to look at the details regarding the year you want to model. There is a variety represented in the available models. Some of the MTH models match the wrong tender to lower numbers on the J. Tenders, trucks, siderod configuration, and even the front skyline casing are some things to look at as well.

Here are photos of an Overland and then MTH J.

Bob,

From what I recall, the Williams J is stretched out. I have a 3 rail version in the box somewhere under the layout.

Some great information here - thanks again everyone!  I hope I'm not bringing up something that has been discussed to death before, but I really appreciate hearing your perspectives based on experience.

This has helped a lot!

quote:

 I did move the tender truck side frames inboard a bunch - a trivial modification.

Did you grind off the brake cylinder mounted on the outside of the trailing truck frame too?

No - but as I pointed out and Christopher confirmed, I am not a rabid N&W modeler.  I just think the J - and the Powhatan Arrow - look great.  I have some of the 1950s time tables with pictures somewhere.

Being partial to my Dad's work (shown below), I don't think anyone has shaped the skyline casing in the proper proportions and mounted it correctly in relation to the bullet nose. One of the old HO PFM Crown models came very close, but, they screwed up the bullet nose so what the heck.

Big Jim,

Always enjoy that photo, I kept a copy of from when you posted a few years ago.  Man what craftsmanship that is, you should be proud of your dad!  Back then was was no "That's good enough", and to think they did it all without computers

There's also the 3rd Rail N&W K2a 4-8-2 that's streamlined like the J.  MSRP is $1200 but from the photos looks great.  One of my ACL-SAL historical mags has photos of them running on ACL tracks in Petersburg Va on the "Cannon Ball".

I'd agree with that. The front casing seems to be a real challenge.

Great photo Jim.  I agree... that skyline casing and the nose are a tough area to get correct.

Chris

For what it's worth, there is an Overland J on "the Bay" right now, and it was under $1000.

If unschrouded is your thing (even just to look) check this out...

http://www.brasstrains.com/cla...1-4-8-4-War-Baby-605

Yeah, you want to watch that Sunset K2a in 2-rail. The drivers are 6 scale inches too small.

Jim,

Thank you. An iconic photo to say the least. Would you care to comment, maybe tell us a bit about your Dad?

Simon

Joe,

How does one decide what inaccuracies one can deal with in a model or a book for that matter? Driver size, misplaced detail parts, color hue, missing parts (text), etc.? It was too bad that most of your focus in your K2a review was on the driver size, when overall the model itself was very nice looking.

In the case of the J's, nobody has done one right yet. Some, overall look better than others. Some look better in this spot not that. While others look better in that spot than this.

I took a look at that Overland J model mentioned above. The hole in the skyline casing up front turned me off. Why? I've seen pictures of them just that way. There are even pictures with the entire top of the casing cut out front to back. That is not how I would want my model to look.

On the plus side, the running gear looked very nice. Too bad Lionel & MTH can't get their running gear to look that good!

I'm still waiting on a better J.

quote:

Would you care to comment, maybe tell us a bit about your Dad?

Simon,

By trade he was what was called a "Tinner". Read sheetmetal worker and retired as a sheetmetal gang leader after 48yrs. 6mos. of service to the N&W at Roanoke's East End Shops. He made all of the skyline casings for the J's. In this picture, he is working on the part of the casing that covers the feedwater heater. He told me it is fabricated out of 28 different pieces. You can almost count them all.

Other than that, he was a great Dad.

PS. I am sorry that I do not know the name of the helper in the picture above. Dad had passed away before I found this picture. So, in that light, let me give credit to all of the unsung workers at East End Shops who did such a fine job in building locomotives!

I love reading this thread and the story of your dad big Jim.  

I still have the Christmas Tree stand that he made out of one of those round valve head covers.

How does one decide . . .

I decided a while ago that I liked the size of O Scale, but not the mismatch between scale and gauge.  Knowing that my J is too long removes none of the joy of having that paint scheme on the point of my Tuscan passenger cars. I do not put up with U shape boilers, or those that are straight when they should be tapered.  I bring my truck side frames inboard when necessary.

A missing headlight visor or incorrect piping will not faze me.  Railroad- specific details on Diesels and passenger car window arrangements are a pretty much " don't care" category for me.  It is a hobby, and you get to make your own decisions.

Can anyone comment on the older Sunset J model's quality, compared with the newer Overland ones?  There is quite a difference in price in the used market.

I haven't been able to find any pictures of the O-Scale Sunset offering.

Thanks!

My opinion only: Pound for pound, $ for $ the early Sunset J is the best bargain. The differences between the Sunset J and the Overland Js are subtle and mostly concern details under the shroud. Things you don't normally see at a quick glance. You have to really look for them. 

You can upgrade the Sunset model if you want but I'd leave it alone. They were delivered unpainted so if you find one painted for around $1200 its a bargain. It could use a better motor but you'll want to do that anyway if you are going to add DCC.

I know that Allegheny Scale Model has a painted Sunset J for sale if you are interested.

Thanks Joe, that's just the kind of feedback I was looking for!

Chris, I just LOVE your layout and photos! 

Thanks Erik. Much appreciated.

Daniel,

I have a Sunset J that is packed away somewhere in the basement. I'll search for it this weekend to take a photo. I have to do some work on it in the future. The only thing that comes to mind that bothered me about the Sunset J is how the front of the skyline casing was handled. The Sunset version is good for the middle group of J's with the curved back on the tender.

Good read guys! All this talk about the imperfections makes me wonder if anyone will ever follow the lead that Rapido has set in HO. By that I mean that they actually do a 3D scan of the prototype if it is available and render their drawings from that. Someone really should scan the J while she is still around. For preservation sake if for no other reason. Personally, I can live without 100% accuracy as long as it is a good representation. These are toys after all. But I admit that it would be very cool to have a model built from a 3D scan of the prototype

No need for a 3D scan.

The N&W HS has more blueprints of the J's than Carter has liver pills!

What the manufacturers need is someone that knows how to read them!

Start with willingness to bother looking at them........reading may be asking too much these days,

Boy you've got that right.

Chris

That's just the beginning. Reading a blueprint will get you an "as delivered" locomotive. WHat about if you want a J with spoked pilot wheels? What about if you want a J with air holes in front of the air pumps? You need both drawings and photos to nail down when those mods went into effect. Some times it's just photos because the drawings are not available. 

True, but in this case the drawings are available as well as photos...it just takes time to do the research. 

Chris