Measurable monetary damages are happening.  This might be a case where a lawsuit could actually be a good thing.

Kent in SD

Doesn't the Army Corps of Engineers control access to the river? 

I wonder whether any of the affected parties has filed a complaint with the US Coast Guard? I believe they are responsible for enforcing Code of Federal Regulations, Part 117 titled "Drawbridge Operation Regulations" which includes limits on the obstruction of navigable waterways. They tend to look unkindly on this type of behavior.

Start the river on FIRE again, That will get the bridge in the right direction.

there is a plan to shift the lakefront traffic [chicago line] over to the former nickle plate lines. that bridge also crosses the river ,but at a much higher elevation.it  would need a couple of connections and some new track put down to make it work. the city and the businesses along the river support this proposal ,but  NS is not thrilled about the idea.

Looks like the usual "The Railroad was there First" comment will not apply.

NS1 = NuiSance 1

Just send NS a bill for lost revenue.  See what happens.

Rick

33 CFR § 117.5 - When the drawbridge must open.

To those that may have some inside information or are local, please keep us informed.  According to the Encyclopedia of Cleveland History, the new channel was dug in 1827 which is what bridge 1 crosses currently, so the railroad definitely came last.  IIRC the old channel and original opening into lLake Erie is well west where the Erie dock used to be.

Great PR for NS, I wonder if they're taking notice?

John:

I doubt NS gives a flip about public opinion.  There is another thread on Trainorders indicating NS is simply ignoring a PENNDOT directive to raise clearances on a Reading line bridge the railroad modified a few years back.

And; if you think back to earlier this year; NS went to court and had a local crossing ordinance overturned in Indiana.  They didn’t want anyone telling them how long they could block a crossing.

Curt

Whose bridge was this, before mergers and formation of Norfolk Southern?  NKP?  NYC?

Hmm. Maybe it is time to moor a large vessel under the bridge so the bridge cannot go down???

mark s posted:

Whose bridge was this, before mergers and formation of Norfolk Southern?  NKP?  NYC?

NYC Water Level Route

Maybe they need to move the boat rental to the other side of the bridge?  Or rent submarines. Or get together and pay the railroad the money to have a bridge tender for the bridge.

There is a draw bridge in the SF Bay Area where the bridge is always up for boat traffic.  It is only lowered when a train is coming.  Perhaps this is a solution?  NH Joe

NS will really feel the pain if it's down and the Weather Service issues a Special Marine Warning for an approaching Thunderstorm and several boats end up capsized and boaters dead as a result of being stuck on the wrong side of the bridge.

Bob

Bobby Ogage posted:

Hmm. Maybe it is time to moor a large vessel under the bridge so the bridge cannot go down???

who's side are you on ?

New Haven Joe posted:

There is a draw bridge in the SF Bay Area where the bridge is always up for boat traffic.  It is only lowered when a train is coming.  Perhaps this is a solution?  NH Joe

that works for a place where 2 or 3 trains a day cross........the NS mainline using the cuy. river drawbridge averages over 45-50 trains/day , about 2-3 per hour.....

Thanks for the correction (CG vs CoE).  Will be interesting to see how this plays out.

The bridge was built when there was heavy commercial traffic on the river. It wasn't designed to opened every twenty minutes for pleasure craft. Operating a movable span involves a lot of work and man power every time an opening occurs. It isn't just pressing a button. 

If the bridge were to fail in a raised position, the railroad may be liable to its customers for delayed shipments. It is probably a situation where any fines or lawsuits are outweighed by operating costs or incidental penalties the carrier may incur. They are in the business to haul freight, not placate pleasure boaters.

The bridge was there before the boat rental companies and excursion boats arrived on the scene. The boat company owners made a poor choice of locating their businesses with out doing their homework beforehand. 

I am surprised to see how many of the responders on this thread are against the railroad. It is a debatable issue, but the negative view of the railroad puzzles me. If your new Lionel locomotive was in a UPS container on a train delayed for a bridge opening and arrived a day late, you probably would not be happy.

Finally, being a career railroad employee, as well as a model railroader, I can see the question Is important to a few people ut not the railroad. But in reality, it is a non issue that seems to have risen from the newsroom floor on a slow day...

Tom

Krieglok posted:

Operating a movable span involves a lot of work and man power every time an opening occurs. It isn't just pressing a button. 

 

And exactly how many men are heaving on the pulleys to open the bridge?

Now, who actually owns the bridge.  Not an odd question.  The railroad causeway onto Galveston Island is owned by Galveston County.

Krieglok posted:

 

The bridge was there before the boat rental companies and excursion boats arrived on the scene. The boat company owners made a poor choice of locating their businesses with out doing their homework beforehand. 

 

I disagree.  Navigable waterways are federal property and there is a law to keep them open.  I.e. you can't string a fence or other barrier across them.  There was no problem before NS changed their operations, so that's clearly to blame.  The fix is obvious.  As for poor choice, you wouldn't want to place docks for small boats on unprotected lake shore.  When the boat company owners started their business this problem did not exist--NS created it.

Kent in SD

Two23 posted:

Krieglok posted:

 

The bridge was there before the boat rental companies and excursion boats arrived on the scene. The boat company owners made a poor choice of locating their businesses with out doing their homework beforehand. 

 

I disagree.  Navigable waterways are federal property and there is a law to keep them open.  I.e. you can't string a fence or other barrier across them.  There was no problem before NS changed their operations, so that's clearly to blame.  The fix is obvious.  As for poor choice, you wouldn't want to place docks for small boats on unprotected lake shore.  When the boat company owners started their business this problem did not exist--NS created it.

 

Kent in SD

I agree.. the railroad is out of line. They are violating a number of laws not to mention the ill will among its neighbors.  

I live just west of UPs Proviso yards and they are constantly blocking crossings for up to 30 minutes a time. My town has two underpasses a mile or so apart so it's not as bad as some towns to the west. There are times when some of the longer trains block every crossing in town. This means emergency vehicles must travel miles out of the way to an underpass in a neighboring suburb. Local police can call and issue tickets but the RR ignores them.  You really can't defend that behavior....

My lord!!Can,t we all just get along?

Maritime Law predates and supersedes any and all other law regarding use of the waterway or inhibiting its use.

It will most likely take a federal injunction to get NS to move off it's dime.

Jim Berger posted:

New Haven Joe posted:

There is a draw bridge in the SF Bay Area where the bridge is always up for boat traffic.  It is only lowered when a train is coming.  Perhaps this is a solution?  NH Joe

that works for a place where 2 or 3 trains a day cross........the NS mainline using the cuy. river drawbridge averages over 45-50 trains/day , about 2-3 per hour.....

According to the article Rich Melvin linked to:

"The bridge was in the lowered position for more than two straight hours Wednesday evening, creating a small flotilla of boats, vessels and pleasure craft on both sides of the bridge. In that time period, four trains used the bridge for less than 20 minutes combined."

Sounds like the boaters have a legitimate reason to complain, and NS doesn't have good grounds to stand on.

Stuart

Most of the movable bridges in North Jersey and on the NEC are kept in the lowered position are they not?

Not sure it's time to make NS out as the only villain; I know I've seen elsewhere that commercial traffic gets precedence over pleasure crafts.  It's a good presumption that the bridge is old and NS is probably tight fisted in any replacement that may need to be built.

Safe to say that a court will look at both sides and force a compromise. 

OK, there is only one solution to this. It is a bit Mokavalian but effective , super glue and zip kicker while the bridge is in the up position,  about one gallon of glue, works on my layout bridges, also hang an effigy of the CEO of NS at the bottom of the bridge as it goes up, that will get their attention. 

Krieglok posted:

The bridge was built when there was heavy commercial traffic on the river. It wasn't designed to opened every twenty minutes for pleasure craft. Operating a movable span involves a lot of work and man power every time an opening occurs. It isn't just pressing a button. 

If the bridge were to fail in a raised position, the railroad may be liable to its customers for delayed shipments. It is probably a situation where any fines or lawsuits are outweighed by operating costs or incidental penalties the carrier may incur. They are in the business to haul freight, not placate pleasure boaters.

The bridge was there before the boat rental companies and excursion boats arrived on the scene. The boat company owners made a poor choice of locating their businesses with out doing their homework beforehand. 

I am surprised to see how many of the responders on this thread are against the railroad. It is a debatable issue, but the negative view of the railroad puzzles me. If your new Lionel locomotive was in a UPS container on a train delayed for a bridge opening and arrived a day late, you probably would not be happy.

Finally, being a career railroad employee, as well as a model railroader, I can see the question Is important to a few people ut not the railroad. But in reality, it is a non issue that seems to have risen from the newsroom floor on a slow day...

Tom

Tom,

Because I like trains does not mean that they get a free pass at being bad neighbors.  This story out of many others proves my point:

https://www.wowt.com/content/n...horns-509618371.html

SPSF posted:

 

Tom,

Because I like trains does not mean that they get a free pass at being bad neighbors.  This story out of many others proves my point:

https://www.wowt.com/content/n...horns-509618371.html

Re: Trains still blowing...

Sorry, that doesn't fly if you make your living running an engine. Until that crossing is completely deactivated (whistle posts gone/etc) it is a LIVE crossing in view of the rules. Failure to comply can result in disciplinary action and/or a hefty fine to the Engineer (if the FRA so chooses).

In addition...

I really don't feel sorry for people that moved next to railroad tracks then start whining, pi**ing and moaning because trains are noisy:  Save it for Oprah.  Don't want to live next to train noise? Don't purchase a home beside active railroad tracks.

Andre

But there is another side to this.

The law was written when there was any recreational boaters......

And do boaters, of ANY size, have to pay any fees or taxes a year to help offset the federal costs to keep the watetway up.

Lastly, maybe it is time to define what "interstate commerce" actually is.  I do not think a rec. sailboat counts.

But in this case NS does have an option.  Maybe moving to the NKP does make some sense.

Dominic, yes. Through registration fees, motor fuel use taxes, and others

Rule292 posted:

Most of the movable bridges in North Jersey and on the NEC are kept in the lowered position are they not?

...

i lived there and NJ is full of lift bridges.  vehicular traffic bridges are typically down and only raised for marine traffic while train bridges are normally kept raised except for when a train is approaching.

for the most part the bridges i remember only affect taller boats and they would signal to the local operator when they needed the bridge raised.   i can't recall  a lift bridge i've ever seen that totally blocks marine traffic like this one does.

i thought i remembered this one...

In Norfolk, the NS bridge is usually raised unless trains are coming. The highway bridges usually open for commercial traffic and have specific times when they open for pleasure craft.

And the NS bridges have a lot of traffic with the container and coal trains that serve the port.

NS will lose this one... and should. Manpower to raise the bridge appears to consist of the bridge tender and is not rocket science. In Tidewater there appears to be very little problem.

Interesting.  As a sailor who has navigated a ton of draws, lifts, swings, and bascules, I can tell you that they almost all of them run on a different schedule, and the instructions to marine traffic are usually printed on a NOAA chart. 

In high boat traffic areas, the bridges are usually left open until needed.  But in areas with both high boat and bridge traffic, they often either run on a schedule or on-demand.  The standard call from a boat can be either via radio on Channel 16 (unless otherwise posted) or by one long blast of the horn. 

In Mystic, CT the NEC swing bridge over the Mystic River runs on a schedule, as does the Route 1 Bascule.  They try to synch them so that when traffic clears one, they'll be ready at the second.

With the exception of swing bridges, most of these bridges operate on extraordinarily low horsepower, and they are very carefully balanced.  Sounds more like someone at HQ dropping a operational command onto a local district without knowing the particulars.

Jon

So, looking at the big picture and relying on years of experience in the railroad industry, the question is . . .

Is this an NS policy, or is this just some meathead in authority that thinks he has more authority than he actually does?  This may sound biased to some, but there is a culture in dispatching offices that encourages issuing instructions, but never taking them.  Not all trick Dispatchers and Chiefs are of that belief, but there are more of them than you might think.

Answer:  Meathead in authority.