OGR Webmaster posted:Brandy posted:..The new Breed don't like steam, period!
Where do you folks some up with this stuff?
Absolute, total nonsense.
If anyone knows what NS management thinks, Rich would be the guy that's knows.
The new breed at NS has been there the entire time Moorman was there promoting steam and heritage. Also, keep in mind some of the NS numbers thrown out in the report are theoretical. Like 300 less locos. There will be more as traffic grows...but steps will be taken that creating efficiency equal to 300 less locos. I don't think NS is doing anything they would not have normally done in the course of business. They just grouped it all into one conversation this time.
Several things to clear up here that has been said previously...
For those not familiar with the CNO&TP, it is essentially the I-75 of railroading and one of Norfolk Southern's busiest and most profitable lines.
The "old" CNO&TP was three Districts as you mentioned plus the Louisville Southern from SJ Tower to Louisville (and on to St Louis) and the K&O from Harriman Junction, TN to Knoxville. There were only two districts for passenger trains: Cincy to Somerset, KY; Somerset to Chattanooga (hence Ferguson Shops being located in Somerset). However, there are now two districts on the CNO&TP going on over 5 years now, essentially based on the old passenger districts. The first district is from Cincinnati to Burnside, KY. The second district is Burnside to Chattanooga. NS spent millions upon millions of dollars creating the crew change point and dormitory in Burnside. There are now Cincinnati, Burnside and Chattanooga based crews. Those trains which work Cincy to SJ are crewed by a separate pool based out of Cincy plus those on the extra board. Ironically, despite the change in crews NS did not place a fuel pad in Burnside so trains are still fueled in Danville, KY, thus creating essentially an extra delay in moving freight down the CNO&TP.
The switch to two districts created a major hiccup on the CNO&TP followed by the Auto Router, which now is officially "turned off" so to speak and dispatchers can override the planned moves without the fear of being reprimanded by upper management. Crews hate the change to two districts because it's a lot more time away from home, thus is railroading. Many crews could get a train from Cincy to Danville; rest and turn back to Cincy in less than a day. That's not happening any more.
In terms of the 630 excursions nearly two years ago... They were somewhat logistically domed from the start. Having 630 plus helpers on the CNO&TP meant two pilot crews in addition to TVRM crews. They had to pay Corman a boat load of money to store the entire consist plus 630 in Lexington for two weeks. Add to that, the Lexington, KY to Oneida, TN trips never should have been planned because of the division change at Burnside . These trips meant NS dedicated four crews each day to get the train over the road.
Yes, as you mentioned for whatever reason the powers that be of the Central Division thought it was a good idea to stop all opposing traffic on the CNO&TP until 630 was passed them, Why? I will never understand because they didn't do it on any of the 765 or 611 trips I've observed. This really did create gridlock (including the infamous 229 being late).
Having 765 run on the CNO&TP would have solved a LOT of issues but I understand (and Rich can correct me) there were issues getting 765 down the Lake Division into Cincy from Ft. Wayne. I was always told it was due to joint trackage rights north of Cincy with that railroad that starts with a C and has random [....] in their logos. If and I mean IF there are ever steam excursions on the north end of the CNO&TP you can bet your @ss they will have 611 on the point unless 765 comes in from the Louisville side simply due to the lack of helpers/crews that are needed to get the train over the road.
But by no means did ANY of the steam trips cause a significant decline in NS's coal and intermodal traffic which lead to this announcement.
In addition to my narrative, here are several photos I took highlighting those 630 trips CNO&TP:
630 blasts through CP Fayette, Lexington, KY May 2014:
630, heading south, just changed crews less than a mile north of this photo in Burnside. The intermodal is a NB bound for Louisville which is also changing crews. The slop freight, a NB, is swapping crews bound for Cincinnati.
Just north of the crew change point we see a NB 630 cross the famous bridge cover Lake Cumberland. Just a few hundred feet to the right of the photographer is where the old Cumberland River bridge was located that included the infamous Southern Railway promo shot with the FT Diesels..
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With NS no longer using 630, 4501, and 765 on excursions does that mean that the Horseshoe Curve, Bethlehem, 630 and 4501 trips in KY, Grundy, Bristol, Macon were one time deals never to be repeated again?
Robert K posted:With NS no longer using 630, 4501, and 765 on excursions does that mean that the Horseshoe Curve, Bethlehem, 630 and 4501 trips in KY, Grundy, Bristol, Macon were one time deals never to be repeated again?
Never say never. Just not this year.
Robert K posted:With NS no longer using 630, 4501, and 765 on excursions does that mean that the Horseshoe Curve, Bethlehem, 630 and 4501 trips in KY, Grundy, Bristol, Macon were one time deals never to be repeated again?
Robert, how could ANYONE possibly know the answer to your question. 
To run any steamer, you first have to have a railroad to tun on. Let NS have a chance to do that, considering the needs of the shippers, workers and shareholders in this trying time.
Well, NS is letting the 611 run again this year. I'm interested in the June 4 Manassas, VA excursion. Manassas is about 200 miles from us. We're in Allentown, PA where the 765 went last year, I was on that trip. At this point we should be glad for any mainline steam excursion given the current state of railroads and the economy. And in a few years I'll be able to ride behind #2102 again for the first time since Sept. 1991 when I rode a 30 mile round trip from Emmaus on a former Reading line that BM&R operated.
Now, is part or all of the "Rathole" ROW stilled owned by the City of Cincy, and leasted to NS?
Robert K posted:With NS no longer using 630, 4501, and 765 on excursions does that mean that the Horseshoe Curve, Bethlehem, 630 and 4501 trips in KY, Grundy, Bristol, Macon were one time deals never to be repeated again?
Steam power is as obsolete as DC-3's and Model A Fords. It's the 21st Century, so the lesson is this: Consider EVERY main line steam trip (and even diesel-powered "rare mileage") to be a one-time deal and make the most of it! Kudos to UP, NS and R J Korman for running them at all!
Kent Loudon posted:Robert K posted:With NS no longer using 630, 4501, and 765 on excursions does that mean that the Horseshoe Curve, Bethlehem, 630 and 4501 trips in KY, Grundy, Bristol, Macon were one time deals never to be repeated again?
Steam power is as obsolete as DC-3's and Model A Fords. It's the 21st Century, so the lesson is this: Consider EVERY main line steam trip (and even diesel-powered "rare mileage") to be a one-time deal and make the most of it! Kudos to UP, NS and R J Korman for running them at all!
Well, neither the UP nor R J Korman operate steam excursions anymore. Mr. Korman passed away more than a year ago, and it has been more than two and half years since the UP operated a steam locomotive.
Kent Loudon posted:Robert K posted:With NS no longer using 630, 4501, and 765 on excursions does that mean that the Horseshoe Curve, Bethlehem, 630 and 4501 trips in KY, Grundy, Bristol, Macon were one time deals never to be repeated again?
Steam power is as obsolete as DC-3's and Model A Fords. It's the 21st Century, so the lesson is this: Consider EVERY main line steam trip (and even diesel-powered "rare mileage") to be a one-time deal and make the most of it! Kudos to UP, NS and R J Korman for running them at all!
I think we forget that railroad ROW is owned by somebody. Mostly by stockholders; but a few by the states, transit authorities, or Amtrak. In all the above cases, it is the management choice of each to have steam. ROW's are not a public park! Or even a paid "Jurassic Park".
Now, if I was a "senior manager" of a railroad, I have one serious question to ask: Would a steam or passenger special event and the line sponsoring it stick in the minds of the general public with the right message more than 15 minutes after the event is over? And even if it did, would it be worth the overall costs? And if it is worth it, one time or many?
Many, many questions to be answered.
Well, tourist railroads that own track can run steam all they want on their own track, but when they want to run on someone else's track that they connect to, they would have to get permission from the owner of that railroad to do so. It's different than running a bus charter where you can go on any road you want because highways are public property, paid by taxes, but railroads are privately owned and control access to their tracks by others. Any future 611 trips would need NS's OK to be able to happen.
611 will run up to four weekends this year and then they're done, too.
I think we've beaten this one to death. Thread closed.
