NYC Accurate Scale Unshrouded Hudson - Budget Price - Opinions Please

They all have their plus and minuses. With a target $400 price K-Line has good detail sound and runs well if slightly underpowered. Williams Masterpiece has a better motor and better running gear detail, poor sound and conventional. MTH loses some detail points but has the most robust running gear. Loses points on shell detail.

If detail is your priority then I would pick Williams. You want to pull long trains then MTH. K-Line is a good compromise between the two.

Pete

Thanks Pete for concisely putting it all together.  Would the K-Line pull 8 K-Line 18" HeavyWeight Cars without struggling, provided no steep inclines?

@MainLine Steam posted:

Thanks Pete for concisely putting it all together.  Would the K-Line pull 8 K-Line 18" HeavyWeight Cars without struggling, provided no steep inclines?

Absolutely.

thanks!

- Mario

Mario

Your layout is beautiful... 👍🙂

Mark in Oregon

@Strummer posted:

Mario

Your layout is beautiful... 👍🙂

Mark in Oregon

Thanks!

It's the Central NY NHRS Chapter layout!  I don't have one at my house; the front office pulled eminent domain and now its a bar.

Needless to say, the K-Line hudson is my absolute favorite and I have 3 of them; two 5343's and a 5344.  One of the 5343's was just delivered to @harmonyards' for upgrading!  I don't think I paid more than $350 for any of them.

Thanks!

- Mario

@MainLine Steam posted:

I am looking for opinions and good photos if you have them for an Unshrouded NYC Hudson.  I do not care if it is a J-1 or J-3.  I want to do this on a "budget".  For other Steam Locos I have been buying Williams and Weaver Brass.  I have been Happy with Williams, VERY Happy with Weaver.

The option I have seen here is the Williams J-3a In the silver box (cab 5430).  These are not all that common.  NOT the early brown cardboard box #4000 (pretty crude by today's standards).  NOT the more recent Williams by Bachmann in the red and silver box (not even sure if it is scale).

K-Line it appears are Gorgeous, maybe better than the Williams?  And in my Price range!  But have been buying brass, so not quite sure about Die-Cast "in person", REALLY want opinions on how these 2 compare!

NOT Sunset/Third Rail unless you have a great one you will sell for approx. $400.

MTH how do they stack-up compared to the Williams and K-Line?

Lionel I have been looking at (from the 1990's) 6-18056 with Vandy Tender (763E), believe they also built one with 6 axle tender 6-18005 (700E)?  My understanding is these were updates of the classics shown in parenthesis, so are they scale?  Any other Scale Lionel I believe would be "over budget" (Way Over), Visionline, Smithsonian.  Am I missing a Lionel Scale Offering?

Please Note I was more careful how I worded this then when Asking about EMD F-units.  I always try to learn from my mistakes.

Lastly I did my homework and read thread below before posting.  Hoping to condense it down (Just Unshrouded NYC), plus MANY of the pictures are missing.

https://ogrforum.com/...motive-guide-hudsons

So please let me know what you guys have and how you like them.  Thank You VERY Much in advance!

JIm,

When you're ready, let's make a plan to stop up to the CNY-NRHS club layout in Syracuse, and we'll have @Norton meet us, and we can go demo some Hudsons.

Thanks!

- Mario

I think to stay within 400, you are going to have to compromise on some detail, and perhaps add it later yourself.

@MainLine Steam posted:

Thanks Pete for concisely putting it all together.  Would the K-Line pull 8 K-Line 18" HeavyWeight Cars without struggling, provided no steep inclines?

Jim, I think 8 cars would be about it without grades. Newer MTH cars are about best rolling. K-Lines are good to but they only made green heavyweights with interiors lettered for Pullman. All three made them with and without interiors. If you go for GGD cars I think maybe 5 would be max as they don’t roll as freely.
I was able to get K-Line, MTH, and Williams engines, the former two with command, for around 400 bucks. Be patient and they will show up.

K-Line has done some very fine cars lettered for NYC in the TT gray Pacemaker colors though.

Pete

I’d agree with both Pete & Mario, ….your biggest bang for your buck is the Kline Hudson, ….IMO, it’s the best of the J1’s as far as detail is concerned!…..power wise, it’s underwhelming again, IMO,….however, 8 heavies on level track with generous curves, and you’ll be ok,….don’t ask it to do anymore….and if you do, and you want to upgrade, I do have a couple options available……most opt for big power swap, but I can do the small 8000 series Pittmans in the stock chassis if you do find yourself owning one and the power isn’t up to par,….

Pat

Mario, Pete and Pat - Thank you all for the information.  The 18" K-Lines I was thinking of are the TT Gray Pacemaker Set with Interiors.

I have a question.  I don't care if the baggage car is lighted.  So I was wondering if I am willing to put up with some flicker, does removing one center pickup per "Lighted" car have much of an effect on "rolling resistance"?  Would daisy-chaining the lighting between cars, and say using just 3 pickups for the whole consist have much of an effect?

Thanks!

@MainLine Steam posted:

Mario, Pete and Pat - Thank you all for the information.  The 18" K-Lines I was thinking of are the TT Gray Pacemaker Set with Interiors.

I have a question.  I don't care if the baggage car is lighted.  So I was wondering if I am willing to put up with some flicker, does removing one center pickup per "Lighted" car have much of an effect on "rolling resistance"?  Would daisy-chaining the lighting between cars, and say using just 3 pickups for the whole consist have much of an effect?

Thanks!

No, …that’s not going to amount to a hill of beans…..the flicker will drive you more nuts than you think,…😉

Pat

Again, stop up soon and we’ll run the K-Line Hudson with all the K-Line Pacemaker cars and we’ll see how she goes!

Hey Pat you know me well.  "More Nuts" is the correct term, glad you didn't say "Nuts" cuz already crossed that bridge.  Hey I like spending more money than I can afford on toy trains (who needs food)!

Mario I would like to meet you and Pat.  And Playing with trains at the Club Would be fun.  It is a fairly long drive, so I will try to figure when might be good, and get back to you.  Thank you very much for the offer!

@MainLine Steam posted:

Hey Pat you know me well.  "More Nuts" is the correct term, glad you didn't say "Nuts" cuz already crossed that bridge.  Hey I like spending more money than I can afford on toy trains (who needs food)!

Mario I would like to meet you and Pat.  And Playing with trains at the Club Would be fun.  It is a fairly long drive, so I will try to figure when might be good, and get back to you.  Thank you very much for the offer!

You can always take the train!

@MainLine Steam posted:

Hey Pat you know me well.  "More Nuts" is the correct term, glad you didn't say "Nuts" cuz already crossed that bridge.  Hey I like spending more money than I can afford on toy trains (who needs food)!

Mario I would like to meet you and Pat.  And Playing with trains at the Club Would be fun.  It is a fairly long drive, so I will try to figure when might be good, and get back to you.  Thank you very much for the offer!

Plan on attending the Syracuse Train Show. November 5,6. Worth the trip.

Pete

@CentralFan1976 posted:

Again, stop up soon and we’ll run the K-Line Hudson with all the K-Line Pacemaker cars and we’ll see how she goes!

Umm, …..your Kline Hudson is at my shop!…😳 ….unless you have more??..

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Umm, …..your Kline Hudson is at my shop!…😳 ….unless you have more??..

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Pat

Two more!  One could never have too many K-Line Hudson’s!

My favorites are the Lionel Legacy J3a Hudsons, but if your talking budget you might get a good deal on one of the earlier Lionel TMCC J3a's that came out around 2001. Same great detail just with the older electronics. I run them both.

More trains than I realized.  I knew about hourly service Albany, but didn't know so many options to Syracuse.  I should know in a week or two what my fall calendar is looking like.

I like to run trains slow, so would the K-Line do this with 8 cars without stalling?  I wouldn't want to fry the motor.  Thanks!

Thanks Skip - Would that be the ones mentioned in my first post or something else?  I come from HO, so know virtually nothing about Lionel, compared to everyone else on this Forum!

@MainLine Steam posted:

Thanks Skip - Would that be the ones mentioned in my first post or something else?  I come from HO, so know virtually nothing about Lionel, compared to everyone else on this Forum!

The Lionel J3a’s are Lionel’s best but hard to find in $400 price range today. Maybe half again as much for the older TMCC versions if you are lucky.

Pete

I took a look at the Lionel J-3a's.  The ones I saw were from 2001 and had Odyssey, and as you mentioned Pete are $600+.  In your opinion are they that much better than the K-Lines?

I can see these are totally different than the updated "Classic Hudson J1-a 700E and 763E" from the 1990's I originally asked about.  Those are about $400.  Are those scale dimensioned or are they "smaller"?

Besides the added detail (prototypical) they have a big Pittman motor so can likely pull almost twice what a stock K-Line can. They also come with Cruise control. They are hamstrung with two chuffs and a puffer smoke unit like the K-Line. Both can be upgraded to 4 chuffs and a fan smoke unit and K-Line upgraded to Cruise easily.

A New York Central fan would want at least one of each, J1e and J3a. Williams Masterpiece is a J3a as well. All MTH unstreamlined are J1e or J1b by cab number at least if not detail.

The 700E is scale.

This is a good online reference for NYC steam.

https://www.railarchive.net/nyccollection/index.html

Pete

The 1990’s models are Pulmor motor equipped, the 763E ( 18056 ) has a “fantasy” tender, as the Central proper never put a “ Vanderbilt “ style tender into practical use…certainly not on a J1e …..although the 18056 is TMCC equipped, it does not and can not have cruise as stock. I’d agree with Pete above, the Lionel 2000’s J3a’s are great pullers, these include 6-28072 J3a ( separate sale ) 6-38041 ( from the Ann. Set ) and 6-38084 ( Dreyfuss )

Pat

Thanks guys.  Based on your comments might be worth spending the extra for a Lionel.  However as I started looking found a 3rd rail Brass J-1d for slightly over $600 so that might really be the way to go.  I always try to get the best "Value".  Which rarely is the highest or lowest price, but somewhere in the middle.   I trust you guys, if it was your money and you were just going to buy 1 which would you choose?  K-Line at $400, Lionel or 3rd rail at $640.

I'm calling it a night.  Who knows maybe somebody on the West Coast is a NYC Fan!  Will see what comments are here tomorrow.

Thanks again Pat, Pete, Skip and Mario for all your help!

Have you considered a Pecos River Brass 4-6-4?  With NYC decals you'll have what you want.  John

For my money, it’s still the K-Line that wins…

I personally find 3rd Rail exquisitely detailed but performance lacking and underwhelming for sounds.  

The Williams J3a’s are nicely detailed but didn’t have command control or a good sound set, so plan on a remotor and command install of your choice.

The Lionel J3a (one for sale NIB on Trainz for $700-something btw…) pulls great and the Scullin discs are nice, but rather sparsely detailed.

The K-Line’s 2 chuff per revolution is easily fixed with a new chuff cam and even the fan smoke can be fixed, which I’m adding to mine but not a smoke fan.  

The MTH are nicely detail and PS2 sounds are ok, but commonly used.  PS3 only offers a marginal increase in sound performance, for the Hudson’s anyway.

I don’t have stupid money, so I have to pick and choose what to purchase and to upgrade.

thanks!

- Mario

With that said… here’s my collection and details…

Twin K-Line Hudson’s 5343 & 5344; stock.  These will cycle through the Harmon shop 😉 for 4 chuffs and fan smoke as finances allow.

One K-Line 5343 in the Harmon shop 😝 for conversion to 4 chuffs, fan smoke, PT tender, nicer speaker and renumber to 5272.

Lionel Commodore Vanderbilt that I built to the hilt and fresh from the Harmon paint shop 🙃 for the most accurate paint and lettering alive. I added ERR cruise, chuff generator, super chuffer, inspection lights, and a BIG speaker.  Soon to have spoked drivers.

An MTH Dreyfuss with PS2 and Boxpok drivers; sound set for the PS3 version doesn’t offer any sound performance enhancements so it’s staying PS3.

And that’s it… I’m done. Someday I might pick up a Williams Masterpiece J3a (when Pete wants to sell his), but I’m not holding my breath.

Thanks!

- Mario

Ps- I like freight more; the more workaday and vanilla the better. What ran day in and day out on the Water Level Route.

Jim, here is solution to your quandary. Just get one of each and then decide.

Choices include.

K-Line J1e

MTH multiple J1e’s from PS1 to PS3 with standard and PT tenders

Lionel 700Es (J1e that started it all) with standard tender.

Lionel J3a’s with standard and PT tenders.

3rd Rail J1a and J1d with standard tender.

3rd Rail J3a Super Hudson with PT tender.

Williams Masterpiece J3a with standard tender.

Likely a few more oddballs out there, not counting two rail brass.

Pete

Thanks guys for the comments.

John - The Pecos River is a gorgeous AT&SF Hudson, but other than the wheel arrangement, they don't have much in Common with a NYC Hudson.  Not sure if they have made one of those.

Mario - I am seriously leaning that way.

Pete - As I said I want to buy 1 at this time.  Sorry if I gave the impression to you and Mario that when I come to Syracuse I would be flying up in my Lear Jet and taking you guys up for a ride.  You suggested the K-Line in your first post as a good compromise.  Really leaning that way.

Pat,

I am interested in your Pittman 8000 series upgrade mentioned above.  I am not sure how to get a hold of you.  I have sent a couple of e-mails as shown in your profile with no response.  Not sure if they might be going to a junk folder.

Thanks,

Mike