NYC J3a Class Lights Photo

Here is the proper example of how to post a link without posting a copyrighted picture directly on the forum.  Thanks Jim!

@Big Jim posted:

I know that there had been a discussion about whether or not the NYC J3a Hudsons ever had class lights. And, how you wanted to remove the ones from your Lionel J3a. Well, it seems like there was at least one exception to the "No class lights" rule!
For those of you who are Facebook able, here is a link showing that at least one [ 5451 ] did on at least one day of its career.

J3a 5451 with class lights mounted

For me anyway your link only opens the NYC fan group page on FB.  Doesn’t direct me to any pic of 5451

The person posting this on FB stated the photographer is unknown, so the poster can not be the copyright holder.  However, whoever did take the photo, or their estate, could of course still claim copyright.

@superwarp1 posted:

For me anyway your link only opens the NYC fan group page on FB.  Doesn’t direct me to any pic of 5451

You have to scroll down a bit Gary, but the pic is there. Scullin drivers, class lights, with a Selkirk front end.

Good catch big Jim. As they say, there's a prototype for everything.

I'd like to know what Pat @harmonyards thinks of it.

Its possible its on the Big Four line which continued to use class lights long after the parent company removed them.

5451 was a Super Hudson built as a Dreyfuss. Here is another pic stating it was, in fact, used on the Big Four.

https://nycshs.omeka.net/items/show/85977

Pete

Norton,
I received an email from Tom Gerbracht, author of "Know Thy Hudsons", about this subject. He closely replied very similarly to what your link stated.

Anyway, the photo with the J3a with class lights gives me enough reason not to whack them off of my Lionel model!

@superwarp1 posted:

For me anyway your link only opens the NYC fan group page on FB.  Doesn’t direct me to any pic of 5451

Odd! If I click on my link, it takes me right to the 5451 photo! Such is the internet!!!

Pete said it all, ….if that engine was assigned to Big Four territory, class lights were needed to identify the train to the controllers in that region, …..practice of the Central proper was to remove the lamp housings, but not the brackets, …..if the engine was ever reassigned to a route that needed class lights, they were simply added back on,…

Pat

@Big Jim posted:

Norton,
I received an email from Tom Gerbracht, author of "Know Thy Hudsons", about this subject. He closely replied very similarly to what your link stated.

Anyway, the photo with the J3a with class lights gives me enough reason not to whack them off of my Lionel model!

Absolutely Jim, ….there’s even a photo of a streamlined Mercury Pacific wearing class lights, no doubt on a run somewhere on the Big Four, ….class lights are ok on some subs, mostly lines west, and especially after the 4 track system ends, and 2 tracks begin….

Pat

@Big Jim posted:

Odd! If I click on my link, it takes me right to the 5451 photo! Such is the internet!!!

Funny wouldn't work at home but works at work.  Nice pic

And what's really funny is I have a pic of this very engine on my wall at work but was taken in Elkhart Indian in late 1955 with it's class lights from the NYC system historical society calendar from some years back.

even though I model lines east, now I need a super in my life with class lights!!…god I’m horrible, …..😝😝😝

Pat

For those of us who don’t know, what is the Big Four?

@Mark V. Spadaro posted:

For those of us who don’t know, what is the Big Four?

Cleveland, Cincinnati, Chicago and St Louis RR.

Google is your friend.

Thx for reply. Google is no one’s friend.

@Mark V. Spadaro posted:

Thx for reply. Google is no one’s friend.

Well, it came up with the correct answer, didn't it?

@Mark V. Spadaro posted:

For those of us who don’t know, what is the Big Four?

The Big Four was a sub of the Central proper Mark, …their equipment was lettered for the New York Central Lines ( early ) and New York Central Systems (later) only reporting markings for Big Four would’ve been tiny letters C,C,C & ST.L on the tops of the tender bunkers,…

Pat

Let me add to the above too, ….later, ( after WWII ) when the Central proper wasn’t exactly a healthy entity anymore, reassigned locomotives went  to sub roads and different divisions “as is” ……as in the case of the subject photo of this thread, …..the engine obviously wasn’t relettered, or any reporting markings added, as that practice cost money, ….and by then, cost cutting was the name of the game,….

Pat

Thanks, Pat. Nice NOT to be admonished for asking a question.😳

@Hot Water posted:

Well, it came up with the correct answer, didn't it?

I don’t use google. First page that popped up on DuckDuckGo, when I asked “What is the Big Four?” had zero references to the New York Central. The one railroad reference pertained to Central California.

Once the Niagaras took over the premier passenger service, most Hudsons were relegated to secondary service. Classification lights were no longer needed on the NYC  main line. But on the less photographed secondary lines locomotives still required them. For example, they were still required on the P&LE when the last steam locomotives  ordered by the New York Central, the A2a Berkshires, were derived in the late 1940s.

Too bad the makers can't install proper scale class lights on their models. It's almost criminal the things they do to put them on. Most of the time they are oversized and mounted incorrectly with big screws. Then you have those big fat ugly heat shrunk leads flopping all over.

@Mark V. Spadaro,

Not really about the thread, but I agree that Google is no ones friend.  I've been using DuckDuckGo for searching on all platforms for about 5 years, but I sheepishly admit I use Google Maps since I haven't found anything better.

Never heard of DDG, but maybe asking the question should have been this, "what was the Big Four in railroads?" Or "what was the Big Four Railroad?" Granted maybe the search would have come up explaining what a railroad is, but who knows. I just know that sometimes less is more, and sometimes more is what you need. It really depends on what you are asking. Specifics usually are the best way to go, but they can turn out some really odd answers. I once looked up an engine, and I got a bakery business in the mix that wasn't even close to the name. It could have been that something on the menu was in the search, like "Hudson" for example.

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

Too bad the makers can't install proper scale class lights on their models. It's almost criminal the things they do to put them on. Most of the time they are oversized and mounted incorrectly with big screws. Then you have those big fat ugly heat shrunk leads flopping all over.

Or like most of these latest Legacy models with the high power focused laser beam, ….capable of splitting atoms,….😉

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Or like most of these latest Legacy models with the high power focused laser beam, ….capable of splitting atoms,….😉

Pat

Yeah, those Legacy class lights are ridiculously bright! What did Lionel do to them to cause that? It would be nice if there was a way to tone them down.

Let's not forget the incorrect headlights Lionel uses.  I've converted many NYC engines with Precision scale headlights.

I don't have much to say in any hard core NYC discussions.  Mostly I read and learn.

However it is hard to believe that any NYC engine could be built so that it never could display class lights.  So, here is proof.

I'm not familiar with legacy NYC rules, and there could have been a provision for running without the use of class lights on the 4-track main line, with its frequent interlocking towers.  (Perhaps under Absolute Block???)  But, a train might have to detour over a branch line -- or a foreign line railroad -- to get around a derailment, on single track and without a schedule, in Timetable and Train Order operation.  Thus, it would have to be run as an extra train (or as a section of a regular train which did have a schedule on the detour route) through the detour, and it is hard to see how this would have been permitted without the display of class lights.  Perhaps, in that case, a train order was issued indicating to other trains that Extra NYC XXXX would only be displaying white (or green) flags, and no class lights.  

Also, maybe the class light brackets were removable (?), and the Fireman had to apply them and the class lights when necessary???

It's an interesting discussion, and hats off to Big Jim for starting it.

@harmonyards posted:

Or like most of these latest Legacy models with the high power focused laser beam, ….capable of splitting atoms,….😉

Indeed.  That bright light can hurt eyes, especially if your new Camry has 35 of them in each brake light assembly.

There's good news here though.  You're not affected.  It's the person driving behind you that gets the grief.

At least with the classification lights on a Hudson there are only two.

And, if you don't mind tinkering, just go inside and double or triple the series resistance feeding the LED to crank down the intensity.

Mike

@Number 90 posted:

I don't have much to say in any hard core NYC discussions.  Mostly I read and learn.

However it is hard to believe that any NYC engine could be built so that it never could display class lights.  So, here is proof.

I'm not familiar with legacy NYC rules, and there could have been a provision for running without the use of class lights on the 4-track main line, with its frequent interlocking towers.  (Perhaps under Absolute Block???)  But, a train might have to detour over a branch line -- or a foreign line railroad -- to get around a derailment, on single track and without a schedule, in Timetable and Train Order operation.  Thus, it would have to be run as an extra train (or as a section of a regular train which did have a schedule on the detour route) through the detour, and it is hard to see how this would have been permitted without the display of class lights.  Perhaps, in that case, a train order was issued indicating to other trains that Extra NYC XXXX would only be displaying white (or green) flags, and no class lights.  

Also, maybe the class light brackets were removable (?), and the Fireman had to apply them and the class lights when necessary???

It's an interesting discussion, and hats off to Big Jim for starting it.

Tom, all the steam locomotives came with the brackets and no doubt the lights that were kept in a storage box. Even the Niagaras that were built long after the parent company no longer used them. That applied to the tender markers as well. They were not permanently mounted as the ones on the models are.

Pete

Pete.  Got it!  Thanks.

This has been an interesting learning lesson. Fantastic.