O & S Scale Midwest Show Ending It's Run

Sadly, this seems to be a trend for train shows.

Brendan

There are still a lot of train shows.  They tend to be local instead of national shows where people have to stay in hotels, etc.  National shows that require travel and hotel rooms are a tough sell since many older people are still reluctant to travel by public transportation.  NH Joe

There are many local train shows.    But there are very few O Scale 2 rail shows.    The Indy show has been a staple for 2 railers for probably 2 decades.  

Sorry to hear this.   This was a popular show for many years, and the host hotels are getting in my opinion, out of line with their costs for shows.   I kind of get the feeling that some venues just do not want to be bothered by hosting some shows.   Too much effort on their part, despite the fees they charge.

@R Nelson posted:

Sorry to hear this.   This was a popular show for many years, and the host hotels are getting in my opinion, out of line with their costs for shows.   I kind of get the feeling that some venues just do not want to be bothered by hosting some shows.   Too much effort on their part, despite the fees they charge.

Personally, I can't blame the hotels.  Currently we have a problem with inflation, the likes of which we haven't seen in 40 years.  I remember the last time this was the case, very well in fact, and I'm so sorry to see it back.

If the decision to shut down this very successful and long-running event is based purely on uncontrollable rising costs then it might be premature.  Costs on everything are going up, not just in our hobby, and not just for hotel space.

The pressure is relentless, but is not insurmountable. 

Mike

I attended this show and had a table.    I sold enough stuff to cover the cost of the table, but not the trip.   I went because I enjoy it, so that was like a vacation expense.    However, if I were a dealer and my livilihood depended on my business, and did likewise, I would be very disappointed.     I can understand if the sponsors are loosing dealers that buy 10-15 tables at a crack, they have to look to their business also.

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Personally, I can't blame the hotels.  Currently we have a problem with inflation, the likes of which we haven't seen in 40 years.  I remember the last time this was the case, very well in fact, and I'm so sorry to see it back.

If the decision to shut down this very successful and long-running event is based purely on uncontrollable rising costs then it might be premature.  Costs on everything are going up, not just in our hobby, and not just for hotel space.

The pressure is relentless, but is not insurmountable.

Mike

150% increase in the meeting space and 30% increase in room rates isn't a good enough reason to cancel?

Rusty

@R Nelson posted:

Sorry to hear this.   This was a popular show for many years, and the host hotels are getting in my opinion, out of line with their costs for shows.   I kind of get the feeling that some venues just do not want to be bothered by hosting some shows.   Too much effort on their part, despite the fees they charge.

R.Nelson: agreed. Some businesses charge exorbitant rates because they don’t want to mess with that particular venue.
Steve

It was a great show; many thanks to the recent, and prior, parties who put it on

Sounds like a case of we were closed for Covid so let's make up for the lost revenue by taking these train guys to the cleaners. When we were in Denver for the National our attendance was a bit off but we bought and bought.

Dick

I think that a lot of hotels feel that weddings, and other parties, are more "profitable"  than train shows.   I do not agree with this mentality, but it is what it is, unfortunately.    The Westin in Lombard (Ill), has pulled this as well, so it is not an isolated case.

Perhaps weddings benefit from "Bridezillas" and alcohol sales.  Perhaps us model rails should get blotto and act like nuts !!  ??

Mark....good reply!    Love it.    As far as alcohol sales go, you haven't been to the Chicago Show, and seen Harry Carey's at the host hotel on Saturday evening!?   I remember the late John Clemens at this show with a cooler of beer, and offering me one at 9:00 in the morning!   I do not drink, nor would I that early...LOL.  Nobody ever got schlockered, but John was "happy" by afternoon!   

@mark s posted:

Perhaps weddings benefit from "Bridezillas" and alcohol sales.  Perhaps us model rails should get blotto and act like nuts !!  ??

Pretty clear that alcohol is not a prerequisite for model RR'ers to act like nuts,

@Rusty Traque posted:

150% increase in the meeting space and 30% increase in room rates isn't a good enough reason to cancel?

Rusty

No.

It's a reason to go somewhere else -- another hotel, another venue, another city, another time.  If you can't find something more reasonable this year wait until next year and try again.

Mike

Well Mellow Mike, . . . it's all yours now.  Have at it!  :-)

As for the evil hotel, . . . hotels are corporations, and exist for one reason and one reason only.  To make profits for their shareholders.  They have a legal duty to act in the best interests of their shareholders.  Sponsoring hobby shows at a low profit margin is not in compliance with this.

@Mannyrock posted:

Well Mellow Mike, . . . it's all yours now.  Have at it!  :-)

As for the evil hotel, . . . hotels are corporations, and exist for one reason and one reason only.  To make profits for their shareholders.  They have a legal duty to act in the best interests of their shareholders.  Sponsoring hobby shows at a low profit margin is not in compliance with this.

Well said.

BTW -- I guess that I could see it coming.  Everyone else in the lineup, besides me, all took a step backward and I didn't.

Mike

Thanks Mike,  . . . all in good humor!

Mannyrock

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

No.

It's a reason to go somewhere else -- another hotel, another venue, another city, another time.  If you can't find something more reasonable this year wait until next year and try again.

Mike

From the O.P.:

"Please do not ask us to see if we can find another place in which to hold the show. Been there, done that! Prior to booking the show in 2017, and again in 2018, we looked at numerous options and spent countless hours making phone calls and doing research. We looked at options not only in Indianapolis, but other venues in the Midwest as well"

There's a lot that goes on in the background to set up and run a show.  Plus, under present conditions there's no guarantee of getting a better deal elsewhere, especially if you want a secure location for overnight.   There's probably cheaper locations in the seedier parts of town, though...

Rusty

Well if the mega hotels don't want the business then so be it. 

Other alternative venue sites would be large Masonic, church or school halls.  Overnight stays can be arranged with a local hotel for lower room rates.

No one says it needs to be at a mega hotel - a small local one will do just a well and probably much more appreciative of the business.

Business is business and eventually these large hotels will need need additional revenue streams to keep their doors open.   

They have seasonal issues like most business, so when things are slow is when they will be much more cooperative. 

Just give it sometime.

Sad news about the show.
I wish Amy and Dan the best for all their efforts to keep the show going. Thank you!

What's been the infatuation with Indianapolis...the city...anyway?

Steve Muffin...Mr. Muffin's Trains...is in Atlanta, IN...less than 50 miles away.  Has anyone asked him for his thoughts on alternatives?

Lafayette, Indiana...only about an hour north of Indy on I-65...and about 2 hours south of Chicago...has LOTS of fine hotels on the I-65 corridor.  After all, it's the land of The Boilermakers...Purdue U....and a definite railroad/railfan town.  (Graduate thereof, BTW).

The I-69 (North...towards Michigan) has nice hall-equipped motel/hotel venues, too.

Just a question...Is adherence to big city venues for these sorts of shows being stuck in a paradigm?  If we can admit that the demographics and other pressures on attendance at regional shows for this segment of the hobby are...'condensing', are there less expensive, welcoming, accommodating alternatives?

Just wondering...ruminating...rambling...done.

@Dkdkrd: if a show was done during the summer in the Lafayette area, that would work. A fall show, not so much unless Purdue had an away game. A home game weekend would find hotels filled. I used to live and work in Lafayette.

Steve

Bloomington is a great little town to visit, with lots of fun shops and stores.  Extremely clean and friendly downtown.  (A little Hippie-fied, but what the heck!)

Given that IU is there, I would imagine that there must be lots of medium size hotels nearby, to handle the alumni and visitors for the football and basketball games.

One would think that there would be at least a couple of halls or centers to hold a trainshow in.

Mannyrock

I think the big shows have stayed near big cities because there are convenient airports nearby for people who want to travel from a distance..     I do notice they tend to stay out of downtown areas to keep costs down.

Don't forget what a giant pain it is to organize these things - often done without remuneration or sometimes even a thank you.

I haven't been to a show for at least five years, but still appreciate the efforts of the folks who organize them.  OSW moved to memorial day weekend, making a drive to and from a trip from ****.  

@Rusty Traque posted:

From the O.P.:

"Please do not ask us to see if we can find another place in which to hold the show. Been there, done that! Prior to booking the show in 2017, and again in 2018, we looked at numerous options and spent countless hours making phone calls and doing research. We looked at options not only in Indianapolis, but other venues in the Midwest as well"

There's a lot that goes on in the background to set up and run a show.  Plus, under present conditions there's no guarantee of getting a better deal elsewhere, especially if you want a secure location for overnight.   There's probably cheaper locations in the seedier parts of town, though...

Rusty

Reading between the lines, to me it sounds like the organizers are just tired of putting the show together in return for whatever benefits (monetary, satisfaction, or otherwise) they get.  I can appreciate that.  IMO, the best answer would be for someone else to jump in and take over - I bet that the OP would offer guidance if asked - but I don't see anyone here offering to do that.

And re cheaper locations, the last time I went to that show (several years ago - scheduling just didn't work for me), it was at a hotel in a really rough area - not safe to walk across the street to McD's.  Interestingly, there is another hotel about 100 yards away that hosts a lot of events, but they have practically turned their location into a fortress, and I'd bet that their rates are much higher.   

Seems like a lot of folks here know the answers - maybe they should get together, form a consortium, and buy the show from Dan & Amy.

Keeping that show that close to an International airport was going to always be expensive and getting worse every year it seems.  Those hotels cater to the high end business exec's and their events.  To me, other than the location(which was a bit pricy to begin with) was nothing to write home about.  But a multi day show adds lots of costs for dealers and the orginizers.  Hence why many shows are a one day thing, for a just a few hours on a Saturday or Sunday.   I would think if someone with local knowledge and a game plan how to do the show well in a different but nearby venue approached them.  Some kind of arrangement could be made to take over the show.  Fall was always Indy, when one would get their kits and supplies for the coming winter months.  Chicago isnt till winter is nearly over.  Maybe this event needs to downsize a bit to a one day event for a few years till this inflation and silly hotel prices calm down(hopefully).  AD

Funny - lots of people going to these shows and dropping $$$ on a chunk of brass, but with all the cheapskates commenting re the hotel costs, no wonder they are throwing in the towel.    You can negotiate with larger hotels and get the meeting space/rooms free, if you can get whatever number of room nights filled you negotiated.  But if people are finding cheaper hotels nearby, that sort of blows the whole thing, which is why the organizers encourage you to stay at the event hotel.  I doubt profit, if there was any, is any motivation for organizers here, but speaking from experience, the stress over a bunch of people you are spending countless hours, planning an event for, finding “cheaper” lodgings elsewhere will make you pull your hair out. (Sometimes calling you up and wasting more of your time asking if you can recommend a cheaper hotel)   If you are traveling to an O Scale 2 rails show to do more than shoot the sh_t, you can afford a decent hotel room.  

I know we are all beating a dead horse here, but in regards to the price of the hotel rooms, I did check prices on surrounding hotels in the area prior to the show.   The prices from the host hotel were actually not that bad!  In nearby Plainfield, rooms  were averaging over $100, and that was the senior rate!    Cheaper places could be found, but when one read the Trip Advisor (or other) reviews, they looked like seedy places, in equally seedy locations.    Indianapolis is not the best, or safest place to get a room in, especially inside of the I 465 corridor.   Room costs in general are sky high, partially thanks to Covid, and the hotel / motels desire to re-coup losses from these past  many months.    Honestly, I do not fault Dan and Amy one bit in their decision.    I think this may become the norm for other shows as well.......

Geez, all of these O gauge train fanatics out there, and they are not willing to rent a car at the airport and drive an hour to 90 minutes, to see a show and stay in a nice medium sized town, with low crime and low hotel fees? 

I don't get it.

By the way, based on my experience, staying at a hotel at an airport is horrible.  People coming and going at all hours of the night, jet aircraft taking off and landing at all hours of the night, and horrible food.    No sights to see or quirky shops to look at.

The nicer downtown hotels generally have a shuttle service every hour, and if they don't, the extra money for the taxi is well worth it.

If O Gauge folks are so spoiled that they are not willing to go a little further for a show, then I guess we'll see how they like having no shows at all.  :-O

Mannyrock

@Mannyrock posted:

Geez, all of these O gauge train fanatics out there, and they are not willing to rent a car at the airport and drive an hour to 90 minutes, to see a show and stay in a nice medium sized town, with low crime and low hotel fees?

I don't get it.

By the way, based on my experience, staying at a hotel at an airport is horrible.  People coming and going at all hours of the night, jet aircraft taking off and landing at all hours of the night, and horrible food.    No sights to see or quirky shops to look at.

The nicer downtown hotels generally have a shuttle service every hour, and if they don't, the extra money for the taxi is well worth it.

If O Gauge folks are so spoiled that they are not willing to go a little further for a show, then I guess we'll see how they like having no shows at all.  :-O

Mannyrock

Once again, from the O.P.:

Prior to booking the show in 2017, and again in 2018, we looked at numerous options and spent countless hours making phone calls and doing research. We looked at options not only in Indianapolis, but other venues in the Midwest as well"

That pretty much says it all, it's A LOT of work (unpaid to boot.)

Criticism is easy, doing the work isn't.

Rusty

Absolutely not criticizing the hard working show sponsors, just the concept that out of town O Gaugers apparently want to fly to shows in big cities only.

I'll miss it.

                                                                  Logan

@Mannyrock posted:

Absolutely not criticizing the hard working show sponsors, just the concept that out of town O Gaugers apparently want to fly to shows in big cities only.

Manny...  Talk about epiphanies...  Have you checked the prices for car rentals lately??

Bad enough on a non-holiday weekend, but a sure eye-opener regardless.  On holiday weekends?......good luck.

It would be interesting to know how many, what percentage of total attendees avail themselves of a large airport in order to attend an O (and now S) show, like Indy, Cleveland, Chicago, et al.  Even the York meets.  Motels/hotels with courtesy vehicles to ferry guests to/from their location are helpful, but the service is 'baked in' to the room rental costs, to be sure.  Don't like those room rates?....rent a car.   Etc, etc., etc., etc..

BTW...never meant to demean the Herculean effort show organizers put into creating the opportunities we've enjoyed for many years.   I may have been too quick to suggest alternatives, but it just seems that there's a lot of reasons why downsizing, re-thinking, brainstorming, paradigm-shaking, et cetera and et alia, are becoming more and more necessary in the face of pandemics, demographics, preferences, inflationary pressure, blah, blah, blah.

One of my most favorite books when I was working in the corporate realm was "A Whack on the Side of the Head" by Roger von Oech...how you can be more creative.  Must've passed out dozens of the paperback to various 'my way or the highway' folks.  I still enjoy re-reading it in my retirement.  Just doing habitual chores in a different manner to get the brain out of its stale rut...very cathartic, refreshing.

But I digress...

KD

@Mannyrock posed:

Absolutely not criticizing the hard working show sponsors, just the concept that out of town O Gaugers apparently want to fly to shows in big cities only.

First, I am not denouncing your post in any way as I think it is valid.  However, just providing a counterpoint thought that this show is a "National O scale Show", so there is some stigma associated with national vs. regional/local show.  Therefore, if you start making the national show look more like a regional show due to the venue (fire hall, Rod and Gun Club, etc. vs. large hotel) or city location (Indianapolis vs. Elkhart or Fort Wayne) , does the show then take on more of a regional feel.  The regional feel may put off out of town attendees.  Remember, a national show is designed to attract a wider national audience of both dealers and attendees alike and there may be some negative connotation from out of town attendees to the point that the "National Show" just morphs into another regional show and only regional attendees end up supporting the show.  This, obviously, is not the point of a "national train show" or the goal of the organizers, from both a presentation and financial standpoint.  Therefore, I think the past show sponsor's efforts have followed the "expected" stigma of a national train show that if you want to attract a "national audience", then they held it at a "national level" venue and city location.  Whether or not a national show can move forward with a more "regional feel" is obviously something that needs to be considered by any show organizer as I do believe this creates an obstacle that needs to be overcome.   

Scott

Interesting info from all.

For me, if the train shows consist primarily of retail dealers, who load up 4 long tables with stacks of NIB locomotives and cars, you can count me out.  (This is what has killed the joy of going to regional gun shows.)

I can look at NIB train products all day long on the internet for free, and if I find one I want, I can press a button and have it delivered to my home in short order.

Mannyrock

Thank you Dan and others that made this show possible in the past. I only wish I could have had the opportunity to go once.