There's lots of hand-wringing with the recent MTH announcement that the market for O-Gauge has been suffering and that may have played a part in MW's announcement.
But if the prices that Stout is getting for their stuff in this current auction are any indication, there's still some pretty significant demand. I was hoping to pick up an item or two for my birthday, but not at these prices.
Am I crazy, or is some of this stuff going above retail?
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Auction "fever", combined with people with more money than sense, contributes to those largely inflated prices. Of course, like-new and boxed pre and postwar sets, trains and accessories will usually bring premium prices. Many collectors versus operators prefer like-new or mint sealed in the box items which may or may not ever be run and sometimes may never be opened!
Prices have escalated and sales have zeroed out. Variety has dropped off completely. Lots of undesirable junk out there these days as well. In the O scale market, I went from buying 5 cars a week on ebay for years to flip to nothing in months. Not many historical ebay sales in the green on completed listings either.
Be careful on what you buy.
Even though many hobbyists are aging or worse, there are still new people entering the hobby (funny how old people age out, but new people keep getting born and getting old enough to buy trains) 
. So many items have only been made once or in limited numbers, and thus there are people new to the hobby who want to acquire specific items, even recently produced items. Common recent items aren't the ones that are selling above the original retail price. It's the uncommon, ancient and such items. This is particularly true of collector type items in mint condition by companies no longer in existence. So there is apparently a robust secondary market for many items, particularly those made many years ago in excellent to mint condition. And items produced more recently in very small numbers.
Are u the guy who joined recently from the central coast? Im a O gauge dealer in Paso Robles. Unfortunately, there's nothing here to visit. Its all mail order and warehouses, but thought id say hi, fwiw.
The model train marketplace is insanely volatile. I see a lot of prices on ebay right now that are higher than what we charge, which is usually below current retail. Any auction, including ebay, prices can go nuts if a bidding war starts. Dont know if u collect, or operate, or what u are looking for, but good luck
beth
I feel like prices on eBay have been over-priced for a long while now (and most shipping costs are ridiculous). Most of the items I wind up watching don't sell either, as they're released pretty quickly after the auction ends (and at the same price).
Are u the guy who joined recently from the central coast? Im a O gauge dealer in Paso Robles. Unfortunately, there's nothing here to visit. Its all mail order and warehouses, but thought id say hi, fwiw.
The model train marketplace is insanely volatile. I see a lot of prices on ebay right now that are higher than what we charge, which is usually below current retail. Any auction, including ebay, prices can go nuts if a bidding war starts. Dont know if u collect, or operate, or what u are looking for, but good luck
beth
@Beth Marshall-The Public Delivery Track: I'm not that guy...I live in Orlando (soon to be Cincinnati). Not really a collector, although I've "collected" quite a bit over the past few months. More like a "tinkerer". I've bought a ton of stuff recently in a "not working" condition and taught myself how to fix / restore stuff.
I've been through MTH Ps1 stuff, Postwar Lionel stuff and modern Lionel. Learned how to use Bondo to smooth and fix cracked plastic, install / Troubleshoot the Ps1 boards into empty engines, and clean / rebuild Lionel E units and AC motors.
Since starting this whole thing, and seeing the level of effort required to get engines from "broken" to "working like new", I could never fathom paying retail for another piece.
I get that others enjoy different aspects of the hobby, and having new equipment with their desired road names and markings is important to keep their layout legit. I just don't have the $$$ to enjoy the hobby that way. At least not yet!
Stimulus Checks burning a hole in their pockets. Had to spend it on trains.
Just in general....there are a lot of "regulars" on ebay now, not so much individuals as there used to be. Im amazed that a lot of the pricing is over what I charge on my website. Apparently there are a number of buyers who only shop on ebay (who knows why) and they pay the asking price. And on top of that, a lot of the regular sellers on ebay have no idea what they are selling. Descriptions are poor or flat out wrong, cars are broken (and advertised as NIB) , original packing is missing. Seems its always a crap shoot.
Yes, I have purchased "NIB" atlas cars,only to find a Weaver car in an Atlas Box. Its pretty pathetic.
I guess the only advantage we have is that we know that market from every day experience....what is genuinely hard to find, and what's not. You can only pick the cream off the top, if u know what the cream looks like.
I stopped using ebay for selling maybe 7 or 8 years ago. Their 15% fee just got to be too much, and the system is cumbersome, and (excuse me for saying this) the worst, highest maintenance buyers were on ebay too. Seems by going to our own website, we filtered some of the buyers who have no idea what they are buying, too.
As I always say...thanks to everyone who buys from us. 99 and 44/100ths percent of what we sell is new from the manufacturer. I just troll ebay occasionally to get some NOS thats hard to find, and to see what the market is doing....
beth
I acquired everything that was sought after during the hey day of O scale. I consider myself quite lucky to achieve this goal considering all that has happened. I do feel sorry for the new folks just getting into this hobby going forward. Limited items / roads / high prices, poor Quality issues, etc.
H.O. is the only way to still get to the goal you want for the real folks. O has been finished for several years now I.M.O.
Just checked my latest ebay bill, wow! I think it may be time to go full blast and continue with my private weathering customers?
Not justifiable any more.
Haven't bought any trains on E bay for a long time. Price are too high on most of it. I have seen PS1 4-6-4 Hudson's that the seller had listed for $ 1000.00. I don't think it sold. I can understand why the hobby is not getting the younger people interested. They can't afford it.
I agree with everything that’s been said. Particularly, as Beth stated about needy EBay buyers! Don’t buy it now, if you haven’t cleared it with your significant other first! I do however find EBay a useful tool, especially if you can bide your time waiting for a fair price...or if it’s an uncommon piece & you know it could be ages until another could come up for sale. Occasionally a strangely worded listing pays big dividends. Recently I bought a PH-180 that was listed as a “120V ac model train controller” I was the only bidder & got it for a fraction of the other PH-180s went for that I was watching.
Living in central PA, a half hour north of York also allows a plethora of free local pickup options from eBay/Craigslist. This saves a bundle & brings prices back down out of the stratosphere. I truly live in an O Gauge rich environment and model common road names. There’s no shortage of Pennsy,LV,Reading,D&H,WM available at any given time
Lastly, several of my higher dollar value locomotives were purchased right here from forum members. We seem to take care of our own around here, and I have never had a bad experience dealing with our community.
Tom
Just in general....there are a lot of "regulars" on ebay now, not so much individuals as there used to be. Im amazed that a lot of the pricing is over what I charge on my website. Apparently there are a number of buyers who only shop on ebay (who knows why) and they pay the asking price. And on top of that, a lot of the regular sellers on ebay have no idea what they are selling. Descriptions are poor or flat out wrong, cars are broken (and advertised as NIB) , original packing is missing. Seems its always a crap shoot.
Yes, I have purchased "NIB" atlas cars,only to find a Weaver car in an Atlas Box. Its pretty pathetic.
I guess the only advantage we have is that we know that market from every day experience....what is genuinely hard to find, and what's not. You can only pick the cream off the top, if u know what the cream looks like.
I stopped using ebay for selling maybe 7 or 8 years ago. Their 15% fee just got to be too much, and the system is cumbersome, and (excuse me for saying this) the worst, highest maintenance buyers were on ebay too. Seems by going to our own website, we filtered some of the buyers who have no idea what they are buying, too.
As I always say...thanks to everyone who buys from us. 99 and 44/100ths percent of what we sell is new from the manufacturer. I just troll ebay occasionally to get some NOS thats hard to find, and to see what the market is doing....
beth
Beth you are a breath of fresh air. I have always appreciated your responses. Bill
@Jeff_the_Coaster_Guy posted:There's lots of hand-wringing with the recent MTH announcement that the market for O-Gauge has been suffering and that may have played a part in MW's announcement.
But if the prices that Stout is getting for their stuff in this current auction are any indication, there's still some pretty significant demand. I was hoping to pick up an item or two for my birthday, but not at these prices.
Am I crazy, or is some of this stuff going above retail?
Well Todays Modern Stout Auction, some items went near retail but there were some deals out there even after adding the 18% auction fee on top of the winning bid. IT all depends on What you are looking for. IF you have patience, over time you will find your deals. otherwise for those items that you really want, save and get ready to pay. I did as the last few modern auctions didn't interest me and I knew these Stout June auctions would have something for me. It seems to be the case every year. This one had a TON of PRR stuff and I REALLY had to make some HARD decisions!
I was also looking to buy a few items at Stout Auctions today but thought the prices were too high for me. So much for the hobby dieing off. Especially when you add buyers premium and shipping I also thought some prices were over retail
Are u the guy who joined recently from the central coast? Im a O gauge dealer in Paso Robles. Unfortunately, there's nothing here to visit. Its all mail order and warehouses, but thought id say hi, fwiw
Hi Beth - I think that was me. I'm up in Pebble Beach and we emailed a few months ago. I'm just starting to dabble in the world of O Scale so have bookmarked your site. Currently converting layout from O31 to O72.
Kevin
Yep, bids were high, no chance of getting any bargains.
Stout sold a NIB Lionel bipolar for $525. One week ago I ent to Toys Trains & Other Old Stuff auction. I purchased the same bipolar for $275 also NIB. The exact same model! Of course both had buyers premium - stout 19% and TT&OOS 10%..
Stout is excellent at getting top dollar for the seller and mostly sells top of the line items, just as yesterdays auction featured. They got a $250 premium on the item I described. If your a seller, which auction house do you chose - Stout. If your a buyer???
You’ll never find finer people than stout to deal with. There are, however, other reputable auction houses out there.
Folks, just remember that "price is what you pay....value is what you get".
And karma rewards you when you pass up an overpriced item. Dont worry, you'll see better and cheaper a bit later...
Everone wear your mask, gloves, enjoy today...✌✌
For a while, I picked up some bargains (mainly, if not entirely, rolling stock) on eBay. Lots of gently used, semi-scale/O27 items. I became especially fond of Industrial Rail products which didn't command much of a price but looked great with PW and modern O27/traditional rolling stock and motive power.
Today, I don't buy anything on eBay. Prices are insanely high given the risks. Recent purchases have been exclusively from established dealers or fellow forumites.
I think Beth is definitely right when it comes to buying off eBay. Sometimes there are listings for items that I want that are just simply priced too high, and not only that but sometimes the description of how good the item is can be exaggerated a bit. I do trust buying off of eBay, even from independent sellers, but I can understand why some of you guys are afraid to do it. IMO even though you can get some good deals off of eBay and other auction sites, ultimately I think buying stuff at shows, swaps meets, things like that, is literally the best way to get trains, and that's simply because you can come across many sellers that are selling their stuff for not only fair prices, but also very low prices too.
I did participate in the recent Stout Auction for their listings of modern equipment, and yeah, there were some things that got very expensive, like a few of the Legacy steam locomotives, but overall it did seem like everything else went kind of cheap actually. Diesels that I'm guessing costed 4-500 dollars when they were first made were going for 2-300 bucks. And some of those lots had a dummy locomotive included too. The Postwar auction that's going on as I am writing this - that's a VERY different story, haha!
@Bill T posted:Yep, bids were high, no chance of getting any bargains.
Oh i disgree with the statement above . More like "slim pickens" for the "bottom feeders" in yesterdays auction.
How about the "hard to find" atlas o Conrail u23b
That sold for $170.00
Or the K line 6 car set of PRR "H22" hoppers that sold for $180.00?
Yea, but that is used, and your leaving out the +18%, plus any other fees, and they charge high on shipping, and IDK if they are collecting sales tax on all sales or not. And there no guarantee that it runs, or that there are parts broken. Its $200.+ for a crap shoot. If u really want a CR U23b, i guess its a good deal. IDK if it was TMCC or conventional. I guess for a TMCC engine it might be a reasonable price..if it works...
I still have SF, C&O, and some other U23's here, new in the box from Atlas...
@feet posted:Haven't bought any trains on E bay for a long time. Price are too high on most of it. I have seen PS1 4-6-4 Hudson's that the seller had listed for $ 1000.00. I don't think it sold. I can understand why the hobby is not getting the younger people interested. They can't afford it.
Well, that's a little like seeing an $80,000 Mercedes for sale and concluding that you can understand why young people aren't buying cars.
Obviously there are a whole lot of engines for sale, new and used, all over the place for a third or less of that $1,000 Hudson you used as an example. Incidentally, your example is a poor one. Anyone who is trying to sell an old PS1 Hudson for $1000 has some serious issues -- ignorance or worse.
There's a whole lot of everything for sale...and not just trains. Lets just say there are 3000 O gauge engines made a year. In the last 30 years...thats just since 1990..we are talking 90,000 engines. Whats out there for sale is still a small number, comparatively. And very little in the O gauge market is destroyed. You may just be thinking of the pre-1983 era...when there was much less being made, and nothing of the quality of today. It was MPC making toys, and a few high end brass makers. And the aftermarket was Lionel postwar. and there was no internet or craigslist or anything. It was pretty much local train shows...and model train shops.
As for new ppl in the hobby..fear not. 50% of our business FIFTY PERCENT of our biz right now id from ppl whove never bought from us before, and a lot of ppl new to the hobby.
not many ppl under 30, as they dont have the money. In the 30-50 range..we have a few ppl who have high risk, high pay jobs. Like working on oil rigs. And over 50...we have quite a few ppl who are retiring, or at a point where they can cruise a little, and have the time and money. Its usually "ive always wanted to do this"
So after 30 years of hearing that its a dying hobby, its not dead. It wont be the craziness of the late 1990's again, but model trains arent dead. There's been consolidation in the industry, and appropriately so.
Meanwhile, trains in real life, are back in the big cities...the most since the 1950's. LA Union station, for example, had 8 departures a day in 1990, and the place was a morgue. Today its closer to 75 departures a day, and light rail and a subway and busses...and the place has been like Grand Central at rush hour. Theres New and expanded service (before the virus, anyway) in more cities than I can recall.
The point is.....more ppl are growing up with trains again....
Oops...gotta pack more trains and get them outta here. only 6 orders behind...yay! (it takes an average of an hour an order. If u think its just throw a train in a box, guess again)
beth
@Geojr posted:Stout sold a NIB Lionel bipolar for $525. One week ago I ent to Toys Trains & Other Old Stuff auction. I purchased the same bipolar for $275 also NIB. The exact same model! Of course both had buyers premium - stout 19% and TT&OOS
You’ll never find finer people than stout to deal with. There are, however, other reputable auction houses out there.
Just an FYI, STOUT charges 18% premium on credit card and paypal. If you send them a check or money order, its 16%.
Stout does well with their auctions because they advertise on the internet, send out blast emails before their auctions begin several times and they take bids two weeks prior to their auctions on the internet. The other train auction houses don't either take bids on the internet, dont advertise and/or target advertise on the web as much, and rely on "their crowd" hence why not that many "bargains" for bottom dwellers at Stout. And they do get a bunch of "hard to find items" from time to time.
I have been buying modern stuff from Stout ever since they became a OGR forum sponsor.[Thats several years now- for anyone counting.] For the items that i have purchased over the years, knock on wood i was never disappointed or got a "dud". I won some. I lost many but never disappointed in the item and/ or the winning bid.
Oh and yes that Atlas O Trainman Conrail U23b is equipped with TMCC as stated in their description and on the o.e.m. box.
Good for you.
But for me...a used U23b with TMCC that sells for 170, would cost me about 225 delivered to my door, and I could only sell for 250, less 3% for CC...thats buying for 225 and selling for 242. And if it had any broken parts or noticeable scratches, id have to sell it for 200 or less and take a loss. And its an early U23b with no diesel exhaust or cruise...
Its a different story when your not the end user.
Just curious, do they charge sales tax outside of Indiana??
Just curious, do they charge sales tax outside of Indiana??
It's pretty common now for companies to charge tax on any purchase, if you buy anything on eBay, you will pay sales tax, for instance. Welcome to the brave new world. 
I was just curious. the sales tax collection laws are different in every state, and not everyone has to collect it.
That’s not my experience. I’ve never paid sales tax on eBay. I’ve purchased several items this month. Is it because I purchased from individuals and not companies?
@gunrunnerjohn posted:It's pretty common now for companies to charge tax on any purchase, if you buy anything on eBay, you will pay sales tax, for instance. Welcome to the brave new world.
Sales tax is the new norm for those purchasing on e-bay (if a state's tax structure is anything like like CA). Kind of a rude shock after years of no sales tax.
Things change - and that's that. 
@MikeH posted:That’s not my experience. I’ve never paid sales tax on eBay. I’ve purchased several items this month. Is it because I purchased from individuals and not companies?
No. If you live in a state that requires sales tax, Ebay tacks it on to all sales, whether from a company or an individual, and then remits it to the state. Since we have an 8.25 percent sales tax in Texas, it's resulted in a serious hit for buying any item on Ebay. Really a bitter pill to swallow. As rthomps said above, it's been a rude shock. Since this took effect at the beginning of the year, you now have to take the tax into account just as as you do with shipping charges, and bid with those add-ons in mind. Taxing sales discourages buyers, and if they do bid, the bid amounts are going to be reduced, which hurts sellers.
From Ebay:
"If you sell to buyers in the US, some states may require you to collect applicable Internet Sales Tax on your transactions. By January 1, 2020, a total of 38 states require the collection of sales tax. In such cases, eBay collects and remits Internet Sales Tax on your behalf."
Interesting. I guess it hasn't hit Missouri yet. I have paid no sales tax on ebay.
I buy very little on eBay. There are a number of the dealers that have a presence on eBay. Why anyone would buy from a dealer on eBay is a complete mystery to me, since you can buy the same item directly from the dealer at a lower cost, because of all the fees Beth alluded to.
Pat
@MikeH posted:Interesting. I guess it hasn't hit Missouri yet. I have paid no sales tax on ebay.
Since you have a state sales tax, it's clearly an oversight that will be rectified soon. Of course, you do have the obligation to remit the sales tax to the state even though it wasn't collected at time of purchase. 
I do not have the luxury of having a hobby shop close to me. So my option is online. I do use eBay as my main interest is not the newer high priced items ( as I call them ) I'm not that much into super detail I hear some speak of. I have two nicely detailed steam engines which I got at the fraction of the original cost I'm happy with. One had Proto sound2 in it, so I had it converted to TMCC. I have one operating system and I'm happy with that.
With that said, eBay is my usual choice, as most dealers do not sell used items online. As they really do not have the time to list all of the items they have for sale used. ( at one time even if they had the item, train world would not sell used items other than in their stores. I will and do use eBay's guarantee, although I do not like to. I have bought items I have had to do a minor repair, ( ie rewire a light for a caboose, etc) yes I use other auction sites also. I have seen a lot of people asking what I consider way too much for an item. When I list an item, I try to look to see what others are asking, and others have sold for, and consider there condition and what condition I think mine is ( I usually rate my self harder than I do for others ) and then I come up with what I feel is a fair price or starting price, depending on where I'm selling it.
I wonder if the new products are actually competing with older used models? That is surely true for 2-rail; the market for new All Nation cars and locomotives died years ago. The labor involved in packing and shipping a ten-wheeler would exceed the current used price.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Since you have a state sales tax, it's clearly an oversight that will be rectified soon. Of course, you do have the obligation to remit the sales tax to the state even though it wasn't collected at time of purchase.
My O gauge purchases over the last fifty-years have been from local shops, local TCA meets, reliable mail order shops like Trainworld, Grzyboski's, Charles Ro, and Ready to Roll. I have never used the Bay or an auction house. I have been a reliable purchaser spending literally tens of thousands of dollars over those five decades in multiple gauges including gauge one live steam. I have never been to York and never really had any desire to go. I always thought it would be sensory overload, and I do not like large crowds. I suppose, in retrospect, I have not been your average hobby purchaser, but I have had tons of trains and FUN over those years! I should add that my lovely and understanding spouse of 49 years thankfully has always been very supportive of my hobby!
There's a whole lot of everything for sale...and not just trains. Lets just say there are 3000 O gauge engines made a year. In the last 30 years...thats just since 1990..we are talking 90,000 engines. Whats out there for sale is still a small number, comparatively. And very little in the O gauge market is destroyed. You may just be thinking of the pre-1983 era...when there was much less being made, and nothing of the quality of today. It was MPC making toys, and a few high end brass makers. And the aftermarket was Lionel postwar. and there was no internet or craigslist or anything. It was pretty much local train shows...and model train shops.
As for new ppl in the hobby..fear not. 50% of our business FIFTY PERCENT of our biz right now id from ppl whove never bought from us before, and a lot of ppl new to the hobby.
not many ppl under 30, as they dont have the money. In the 30-50 range..we have a few ppl who have high risk, high pay jobs. Like working on oil rigs. And over 50...we have quite a few ppl who are retiring, or at a point where they can cruise a little, and have the time and money. Its usually "ive always wanted to do this"
So after 30 years of hearing that its a dying hobby, its not dead. It wont be the craziness of the late 1990's again, but model trains arent dead. There's been consolidation in the industry, and appropriately so.
Meanwhile, trains in real life, are back in the big cities...the most since the 1950's. LA Union station, for example, had 8 departures a day in 1990, and the place was a morgue. Today its closer to 75 departures a day, and light rail and a subway and busses...and the place has been like Grand Central at rush hour. Theres New and expanded service (before the virus, anyway) in more cities than I can recall.
The point is.....more ppl are growing up with trains again....
Oops...gotta pack more trains and get them outta here. only 6 orders behind...yay! (it takes an average of an hour an order. If u think its just throw a train in a box, guess again)
beth
This is very much what we are seeing as far as Ameritowne sales and forum membership applications. Not so much as far as subscriptions...but we did see a significant increase in digital subscription sales until this year.... been flat for a few months now. Folks...please subscribe!!!
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