O Gauge versus S Gauge

Tip of iceberg:

S - 2 rail (looks better than 3RO); 2 rail - can be a bit harder to wire in certain situations. Less stuff available (not always bad...). 

3RO - easy to deal with, LOTS available (not always good...), most but not all tight-curve-tolerant equipment is compressed/down-sized from true 1:48 (some looks fine; some does not). When it comes to steam locos, there are indeed full-scale 1:48 3RO models available that will work and look pretty good on small curves: 0-6-0, 0-8-0, 4-4-0, 4-4-2 - but if you want 2-8-2's etc, not so much.

"If I were starting today", as we say, and had real space constraints plus could live with the much smaller selection of equipment (it's not hopeless, just much less) I'd go with S. But, I have very specific steam loco "needs" that S generally does not satisfy. Otherwise, I like S a lot.

Having been in O Scale and HO scale, O scale demands more then a 50 x 18 foot area for a decent layout.  O scale especially steam requires a minimum of 42 inch and in most cases 54 or wider.

HO is great for getting a lot of stuff in a small area, but it is more difficult to work on as the eyes fade.

S is a compromise between the two scale, you get more trains in less space, but as noted above, not as much selection in engines.  You can do scale S steam on 27 inch (they measure in radius, not diameter). I do believe S is the GOLDILOCKS scale.

Nearly everything in S Scale is scale proportioned. Save for a couple Gilbert Cheapies. And American Models actually has a good selection with most things in stock.

Francine posted:

Having been in O Scale and HO scale, O scale demands more then a 50 x 18 foot area for a decent layout.  O scale especially steam requires a minimum of 42 inch and in most cases 54 or wider.

HO is great for getting a lot of stuff in a small area, but it is more difficult to work on as the eyes fade.

S is a compromise between the two scale, you get more trains in less space, but as noted above, not as much selection in engines.  You can do scale S steam on 27 inch (they measure in radius, not diameter). I do believe S is the GOLDILOCKS scale.

"O scale demands more then a 50 x 18 foot area for a decent layout."

I guess that depends on one's definition of a "decent layout".

"O scale especially steam requires a minimum of 42 inch and in most cases 54 or wider."

Another great misconception.  Again this depends on what size steam you would like to operate.  Cab Forwards or Moguls.  It also depends on the manufacturer of the locomotive.  Steam locomotives without a one piece side rod, like most Lionel or MTH products, tend to handle smaller radius curves better.

Opinion (based on background, training (!), and experience)

YMMV.

Leaving brass importers out of the picture, there is only one dedicated 100% S scale manufacturer: American Models.  AM offers dependable, solid performing, conventional AC or DC locomotives and rolling stock with either American Flyer/Hirail compatible or scale wheels and couplers.

Lionel has been offering a rather eclectic selection of S in their American Flyer line and MTH has very, very slowly been releasing the former S Helper service line.  (We've been waiting 3+ years for the return of the F3's.)  Both companies offer their proprietary electronics with DCC compatibility.

All three of the above companies offer track, with a varying selection available at present.

Most other manufacturers are what used to be called "cottage industries" of dedicated S folks putting out various products.

However, availability of S is the issue.  Very few dealers carry S.  The internet and S events (Spring S Spree, Fall S Fest, NASG conventions) is where most S can be purchased.

Being in S can be very challenging, but also very rewarding.  Some resources are the S Scale Resource magazine and the National Association of S Gaugers.

Rusty

I put a bunch of $$ in to post war S scale and found it very frustrating trying to get the stuff reliable. Finally traded it all for more O gauge. I think 50x18 ft for a decent layout is a gross exaggeration. If I wanted a  tighter radius, more in less space I would go with On3.

In another life I would have opted for S. It's a bit like On30-sized equipment running on standard gauge track

Why not go with both? S scale (3/16" to the foot) on O gauge track? And O-27 to boot so you can get into smaller spaces! That was prewar American Flyer O gauge and just about anything Marx made for "scale." Some postwar Lionel was 3/16" scale too.

Here's some Marx 3/16" scale tin trains...

More than likely, I'll be stuck to 036 track. I run mostly B-B diesels and Lionel's USRA 0-8-0 (all scale). (I have a Heavy Mikado that will negotiate the curves, but for the most part it is relegated to a straight siding.)

All my freight that sees 036 curves are PS-2 two bay covered hoppers (a boxcar sits at the end of a spur).

The most disturbing appearances on the curves: any C-C diesel that I have tried, long freight cars and any passenger cars, the relationship of a steam loco's cab to the tender.

It's all about compromise. All my equipment is scale. All my locos are Legacy. No, it doesn't look like an actual railroad; not even close. But it's sort of like black and white TV. After about 10 minutes I no longer notice.

It depends on your desires. If you are interested in really modelling some real railroad, or running (as opposed to merely having) models of particular real trains, then you are probably going to be frustrated with curves of that size in 'O', unless what you are modelling is something with sharp curves and small motive power.

Possibly, you could design a layout where you can't see any of the curves, since many mid-sized scale engines designed for the 3-rail market will navigate o-36 or o-42, but look terrible doing it. But if you can hide the curves, who will ever know how bad they look?

But if you want models of larger prototypes and you are sensitive to how they look on your curves, then you might consider 'S' instead. And if you want to model a really large swath of railroad, you might go even smaller.

On the other hand, if you are not in love with accuracy, per se, but rather with the light and color and sound and action of miniature trains, then you will be well served in O, because there is so much more product. You will tend to forgive the fact that much of it is not scale, because it lights up, moves, whistles, dings, honks, smokes, talks, and just plain looks cool. If it is scale-sized and accurate, that's just a bonus.

So ask yourself, why do you like miniature trains? Figure out the answer, and your decision about scale will be easy to make.

I just gotta say, if O-gauge is too big, I wouldn't give S-gauge a second thought. I would look at HO, where the choices are nearly unlimited.

I have been in all the scales at one time or another.  Currently in O and G scales but have been involved in S scale also.  I had track from American Models and I thought it looked the best of all the scales.  I ran American Models and S Helper Service engines and cars.  S Helper Service can still be had on eBay as can American Models, American flyer, and MTH.  HO has the most available equipment than all other scales but is too small for me as may be with you.  The older I get the smaller HO becomes.  Now that MTH is making S scale, more stuff may be coming available.

If I were you, I would attend some train shows and check out a modular layout if possible.  In my region, the Greenberg train show has a modular S scale layout which could give you some idea of what it would look like.  You can combine the new MTH with the other S manufacturers with barely any difference in appearance.

Rick

Francine posted:

Having been in O Scale and HO scale, O scale demands more then a 50 x 18 foot area for a decent layout.  O scale especially steam requires a minimum of 42 inch and in most cases 54 or wider.

HO is great for getting a lot of stuff in a small area, but it is more difficult to work on as the eyes fade.

S is a compromise between the two scale, you get more trains in less space, but as noted above, not as much selection in engines.  You can do scale S steam on 27 inch (they measure in radius, not diameter). I do believe S is the GOLDILOCKS scale.

50 X 18 sounds like a professional set up.  Or you own a large estate.  I only have the front room to work in. 

Rusty Traque posted:

Leaving brass importers out of the picture, there is only one dedicated 100% S scale manufacturer: American Models.  AM offers dependable, solid performing, conventional AC or DC locomotives and rolling stock with either American Flyer/Hirail compatible or scale wheels and couplers.

Lionel has been offering a rather eclectic selection of S in their American Flyer line and MTH has very, very slowly been releasing the former S Helper service line.  (We've been waiting 3+ years for the return of the F3's.)  Both companies offer their proprietary electronics with DCC compatibility.

All three of the above companies offer track, with a varying selection available at present.

Most other manufacturers are what used to be called "cottage industries" of dedicated S folks putting out various products.

However, availability of S is the issue.  Very few dealers carry S.  The internet and S events (Spring S Spree, Fall S Fest, NASG conventions) is where most S can be purchased.

Being in S can be very challenging, but also very rewarding.  Some resources are the S Scale Resource magazine and the National Association of S Gaugers.

Rusty

Thanks.

handyandy posted:

Why not go with both? S scale (3/16" to the foot) on O gauge track? And O-27 to boot so you can get into smaller spaces! That was prewar American Flyer O gauge and just about anything Marx made for "scale." Some postwar Lionel was 3/16" scale too.

Here's some Marx 3/16" scale tin trains...

I might like to know how to do this.

TM Terry posted:

More than likely, I'll be stuck to 036 track. I run mostly B-B diesels and Lionel's USRA 0-8-0 (all scale). (I have a Heavy Mikado that will negotiate the curves, but for the most part it is relegated to a straight siding.)

All my freight that sees 036 curves are PS-2 two bay covered hoppers (a boxcar sits at the end of a spur).

The most disturbing appearances on the curves: any C-C diesel that I have tried, long freight cars and any passenger cars, the relationship of a steam loco's cab to the tender.

It's all about compromise. All my equipment is scale. All my locos are Legacy. No, it doesn't look like an actual railroad; not even close. But it's sort of like black and white TV. After about 10 minutes I no longer notice.

I'm really interested, I think at this point, in passenger trains of the pre-war, war time and post-war periods.  Love the GG-1 and Santa Fe Super Chief which I rode once or twice.   

TM Terry posted:

I just gotta say, if O-gauge is too big, I wouldn't give S-gauge a second thought. I would look at HO, where the choices are nearly unlimited.

I hear ya.

nickaix posted:

It depends on your desires. If you are interested in really modelling some real railroad, or running (as opposed to merely having) models of particular real trains, then you are probably going to be frustrated with curves of that size in 'O', unless what you are modelling is something with sharp curves and small motive power.

Possibly, you could design a layout where you can't see any of the curves, since many mid-sized scale engines designed for the 3-rail market will navigate o-36 or o-42, but look terrible doing it. But if you can hide the curves, who will ever know how bad they look?

But if you want models of larger prototypes and you are sensitive to how they look on your curves, then you might consider 'S' instead. And if you want to model a really large swath of railroad, you might go even smaller.

On the other hand, if you are not in love with accuracy, per se, but rather with the light and color and sound and action of miniature trains, then you will be well served in O, because there is so much more product. You will tend to forgive the fact that much of it is not scale, because it lights up, moves, whistles, dings, honks, smokes, talks, and just plain looks cool. If it is scale-sized and accurate, that's just a bonus.

So ask yourself, why do you like miniature trains? Figure out the answer, and your decision about scale will be easy to make.

My goal is to try to set something nice up at Christmas every year.  I don't have time and space for a full-up operation.

RICKC posted:

I have been in all the scales at one time or another.  Currently in O and G scales but have been involved in S scale also.  I had track from American Models and I thought it looked the best of all the scales.  I ran American Models and S Helper Service engines and cars.  S Helper Service can still be had on eBay as can American Models, American flyer, and MTH.  HO has the most available equipment than all other scales but is too small for me as may be with you.  The older I get the smaller HO becomes.  Now that MTH is making S scale, more stuff may be coming available.

If I were you, I would attend some train shows and check out a modular layout if possible.  In my region, the Greenberg train show has a modular S scale layout which could give you some idea of what it would look like.  You can combine the new MTH with the other S manufacturers with barely any difference in appearance.

Rick

Right.  I am thinking modular as this will be an annual thing to set up.  If I can keep it somewhat compact I will.

Then I would definitely go with O  3 rail track. Quick to set up and strong.

D500 posted:

When it comes to steam locos, there are indeed full-scale 1:48 3RO models available that will work and look pretty good on small curves: 0-6-0, 0-8-0, 4-4-0, 4-4-2 - but if you want 2-8-2's etc, not so much.

MTH made a scale-proportioned Russian Decapod (e.g. Frisco 1630) that, according to OGR magazine's resident reviewer, can handle O-31 curves.  There's also MTH's Premier H-10 2-8-0s, which are listed at O-42 but have the same length as my Railking 2-8-0, so they could probably negotiate O-31. Most carbody diesels, and some 4-axle hood units, can negotiate O-31/O-42 also (though not 21" passenger cars). 

It really depends on what you (Foxer55) want to have as your layout "themes." If you want to have a small or medium sized freight line that uses shorter cars, go O. If, however, you want to run a full-scale PRR Congressional, then build your layout in S scale. 

I personally would make your layout O scale. 

Thanks.

I have always considered S Scale locomotives, passenger cars and freight cars the ideal size for a layout for a home layout. I did consider S Scale when I returned to this hobby in 1993, two conditions influenced me to stay with O Scale 3-Rail one being the Lionel trainset my father bought for me in 1955 the second the availability of S Scale locomotive, cars, structure, track, etc., when compared to the availability of these items in 3-Rail. It seems from your comments that you are basically starting the scale choice with no reservations, pro or con, this is a good starting point.

I would start with the following considerations;

1. Will the layout be single track with starting and end points with switching sidings?

2. Will the layout be single or double tracked with switching sidings?

3. What is the period you are modeling and are there locomotives, freight cars, passenger cars, structure, etc. available?

4. Is the layout to be single or multiple levels?

These are some issues I would consider, there are more, I would do a detailed survey of what is available today in S Scale and check with the participants in the S Scale Forum for assistance and advice or do a Google search on the web for S Scale or American Flyer modelers.

By your posting comments this is the right way to assess what scale to choose it is quality time spent in seeking information by yourself or the advice of others and list on paper both the pros and cons of choosing one scale over the other. The choice truly must be your choice and once you make this choice go for it and enjoy model railroading.

In my opinion, the only way I'd recommend going with S gauge is if you are a fan of the vintage manufacturers of this gauge.  The lack of modern equipment is too limiting for my tastes.   The choice is really O or HO.  

-Greg 

I put a bunch of $$ in to post war S scale and found it very frustrating trying to get the stuff reliable. Finally traded it all for more O gauge.

Any Postwar American Flyer that I have had pass through my hands had problems with power pickup. The track and wheels had to be meticulously cleaned. 
American Flyer E-units seem to be more trouble prone than Lionel's although I do like the fact that their drums have a steel pin.
In my experience, the selection and quality of reproduction parts for postwar American Flyer are not that good.

Flyer made some very nice pieces. I have a few, and there are a few more I'd certainly like to have.
Many accessories are right at home on a Lionel layout.

For operating I'd stick with Lionel

I agree. Some of their engineering in electrical pick up was not too impressive. I had 9 steamers and a really nice GP9 but the whole hing was finicky. There were two incompatible coupler systems  which gave me fits. When they ran they were nice but after awhile it was too much.

There were two incompatible coupler systems  which gave me fits.

I have a set from 1952 that came with link couplers. It's my impression that in 1952 Flyer offered some trains with link couplers and others with knuckle. While rolling stock was still available with link couplers in 1953, all the catalog focus was on items with knuckle couplers. The link stuff looked almost like an afterthought. 

Flyer did offer conversion knuckles. Some of the items in my set were converted. I have the parts to convert those pieces back. (Where Flyer is concerned, I am strictly a collector).

Many of the items in this set are in very poor condition. In fact, I purchased the set with the idea of junking the whole thing, but the engines cleaned up better than I had anticipated.
I've been looking to replace the damaged cars on and off for a number of years now. It seems that whenever I do see the right pieces, they are not in very good condition. Flyer is not common in my area.

I have a non-train person friend who still has his childhood American Flyer train set. I've only seen the engine, which is a beautiful Northern, with all the factory wrapping, etc. I hope that someday he will offer to sell it to me.

I have a two level layout with 0 on the bottom and S on top works for me

In response to some of the above posters, I'll grant that postwar Gilbert Flyer can be finicky and requires a slightly different skill set to maintain than postwar Lionel.

However, even with the shortcomings of today's market conditions, S is so much more than just postwar Flyer.  Example: the old Gilbert GP7 vs the American Models GP9's:

My AM models have scale wheels and couplers, they are also available with Flyer compatible wheels and couplers in conventional DC or AC.

And Lionel's American Flyer ES44's and SD70's ain't no slouches, either:

Rusty

I have limited space for a floor layout and bought my first O gauge RTR set mistakenly thinking it was the S scale of my childhood Christmases.  So, for a little while I wondered whether S would be better.  I bought an old American Flyer caboose to help me ponder the situation.  

Without any firm data, my instinct was that S wouldn't buy me much in space or curves.  I have both MTH 31 and Lionel 36 curve track, both of which work well with steam and diesel locos.  The detail and proportions of S scale products always look a little less robust than O or even HO.  So, I'm sticking with O gauge.  Others have already mentioned its strength for your seasonal and temporary application and that it is easy to wire.

Good luck with your decision.

Tomlinson Run Railroad 

S is the perfect size for me. IF there were a fraction of the products available in S that are in O I would do S in a heartbeat.

I prefer S scale, but I've not had good experiences with the now decades old brass locomotives. River Raisin is the only brass importer left. Dan has slowed down and is currently focused on the obscure Berkshire project. MTH bought SHS, but has taken years and still hasn't delivered the first engine. At this point it remains to be seen if MTH will even bring the existing tooling to market let alone anything new. Lionel looked promising for a bit, but they seem to have settled into the traditional AF niche.

Having said all of that, IF I could just get the SHS engines with MTH PS 3.0 I would probably sell my O scale off and stick with S. I just have zero faith that MTH will deliver. So for now, I'm hedging my bets with O waiting (not so) patiently for the day when (if) S scale products are available again.

If I'm dreaming for new tooling, I want:

-Small/Mid size steam with sound and smoke Ex. 2-6-0, 4-4-0, 4-6-0, 2-8-2, 4-6-2, 4-6-4

-New passenger cars. Ex. MTH should make S scale versions of their 64' woodside O scale cars. Detailed interiors, figures, LED lights, etc...

-New Diesels - GP30, E7, SD40-2, Baldwin or Alco switchers

-S scale version of Lionel's PS-1 boxcars with speakers and sounds

banjoflyer posted:

You don't need a huge room to model S or O gauge for that matter. I have a dual gauge layout that features one loop of O on the outside edge with two loops of S contained within it. Not only that but there is a dogbone loop of O gauge Superstreets and a 3rd track of S gauge that's a point-to point track. The widest table section is five feet wide. That's a 4X8 table with a one foot cantilevered edge section. 

I can run a Lionel O scale E7 on the O gauge loop and that's a pretty big engine. Small to mid-sized steam engines (Mikado) run easily on O36 Fastrack.

The S loops can run a 4-8-4 Northern as well as an SD70ACe or an American Models GG-1. And that's with 20" radius track.

So don't begine with the idea that you'll eventually need a very large layout to run either gauge. It's not true.

Here's a rough drawing of my track plan:

Red=Superstreets

Green=S gauge point-to-point

Thin black line=S gauge

Thick black line=O gauge

Mark

 

Now, if we could put a big Christmas tree right in the middle of that layout...

The size of the track O gauge is better for being able to have more in the same size area as S gauge because most S gauge that I have been around is 42 inch curves, unless you have A.F. Pike Master track. O gauge starts at 31 inch curves unless you have 027.

To bust the myth about H.O. track; most factory H.O. curve track starts at 15 inch curves or 30 inch diameter and goes up from there. H.O. has 15 inch, 18 inch and 22 inch curves which equals out to 30 inch, 36 inch and 44 inch diameter. So I don't see the real space saving in H.O. scale.

Lee Fritz

You guys are comparing 3 rail vs. Scale. That's not an apples to apples comparison.

HO models are scale models with fixed pilots, body mounted couplers, all flanged drivers, etc... The O scale equivalent to 18"r in HO would be 32.625"r. 3 rail makes a lot compromises to allow tighter radius operation.

I thought about S scale- its very alluring size wise for a layout. It just seems to have very slim pickings motive power and rolling stock. That said- its still good stuff and best of luck to you.

Minimum radius for S tinplate (Gilbert) is about 20". This is approximately O-54 in O gauge. The footprint of S scale buildings is smaller but the track radii are really not unless one is comparing full O scale to S scale. Essentially all Gilbert, AM and SHS production is scale proportioned, with some coupler mounting and wheel set compromises so it will operate on 20" radius track. 

There is a much greater selection of equipment in O than in S. There are many new highly detailed cars from AM and SHS but they are all older prototypes. As long as one is modeling the 50's that is ok. If you want to model current day rolling stock S would not be the best choice. 

I model in S high rail. Minimum curve diameter is about 70" plus easements. The rail height is .138 which will allow all Gilbert equipment to operate on it. S scale wheels will also work. Original Gilbert track is about .172 high. All Legacy and LCS items work in S but the wiring can be more involved depending on how large the layout is. Reverse loops require special electronic sensors and insulated track joints. Capacitors are required at many locations to pass the Legacy signal but not trigger the electronic reverse loop modules. On my Chistmas layouts I can just do the one wire Legacy connection and all works well. 

You guys are really being helpful with a lot of experienced comments.  I would say at this point your recommendations are leaning towards the 0 gauge but there is sentiment for S gauge.  As I look at the options I'm feeling the same way.

There are almost as many opinions here, as there are answers, and I can relate to many of them.  Given your primary goals are a modular holiday layout, my suggestion is that S scale has plenty of equipment available. 

I have pasted a link below to the Web Pages for the Atlantic Coast S Gaugers, an organization I belong to.  I hope you enjoy reviewing some member layout photos as well as photos and video's from Train Shows that we participate in.  Depending on your location you may be able to find a show near you before you make a decision.  Many of the shows we participate in also have modular layouts in N, HO, and O gauge.

http://sgaugers.org/CD/CD_index.html

Happy reading/viewing,

Aflyer

I asked the very same question when I got started.

Go to any hobby shop, website, or magazine ad, and check out the available stock of  trains and accessories for O and S gauge.

Note that minimum turning radii for each are very similar as are prices.

The answer should become apparent.