O Scale El Capitan

Hi Matt:

K-line did a nice set of scale length cars.  I haven't seen many around, only one member of our group had a set, but they were very nice.  The only wierd thing was the transition car that they made had a roof finish that did not match the rest of the train, it was too shiny.  The owner gave it to me to tone down.  I did that in my bead blast booth by masking off everything but the roof, and giving it a minor blast.  The car matched the rest of the train perfectly.

Keep an eye on e-Bay, occasionally they show up.

That train is one of my most favorite trains.  I can remember seeing the model of the El Cap on the Museum and Santa Fe railroad at the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago.  Alas, though, I decided to model GN and NP.

Regard,

GNNPNUT

Matt....below are a few pictures of the K-line cars that are referred to above.  Hope you enjoy!!

Alan

The K-Line cars are Superliner cars with Santa Fe finish.  Still the best that is available in O Scale but...

I've been lobbying GGD to do high level El Cap cars so if you are interested let Scott Mann know.

Alan, it is such an awful looking train I dont think you should insult that beautiful layout by running such an ugly train on it. I would gladly take it off your hands to spare you the trouble of having to get rid of it.

All kidding aside that is a beautiful train. I wish I hadn't found out there was one made because now I want one more than ever. What are there 14 cars?

OH MY Matt....I couldn't do such a terrible thing to you....to transfer my embarrassment and shame of having this train to a nice guy like you would not be right or fair..

"rudnniii" is correct, the cars are actually Superliner cars that have been modified to look like Hi-level cars.  The fluting along the sides is correct best I can tell but the wheel wells and truck side frames are not correct.  Honestly, whichever manufacturer that owns the original K-line dies could make just a few modifications and would have a very nice and mostly accurate car.  Even so, these are the closest we have right now and I feel it will be a LONG time before they are reproduced if ever.  With the current market demand that models have all of the exterior and interior detail, they would be very expensive.  Heck, these K-line cars are very expensive on the secondary market as it is right now!!

Matt....K-line made the entire El Capitan train including the full dome car that ran in some of the prototype versions..  I am running a dozen of the cars right now.

Alan

Alan, I'm not that nice and I deserve embarrassment and shame. I would be willing to accept the inaccuracies being that I dont look that close at stuff like that. I was just looking at feeBay past auctions and the transition set went for 780 not too long ago. Being that I hat buying on feebay i may just have to suffer through not ever getting one

You two are a hoot. For years, O gauge operators were clamoring for full-scale passenger cars and K-Line was pretty much the only one to deliver, albeit somewhat generic. The cars were initially expensive, but now they're selling for two to four times as much per car in the secondary market. I'd love to see some accurate 21-inch cars produced. The demand is still here.

Matt, I am well on my way to a 14 car set of the Atlas CZ train with Lionel F3's heading it up. and the more I see of the scale passenger cars the more I like them. MTH and Lionel scaling them down just makes them look a little odd. but El Cap was a beautiful and unique train and its a shame that nobody makes one. I would buy that K-line in second if I didnt think it would take me a million years to find a full set and a million years far exceeds the length of my already short attention span.

I like this thread!!  As I said above, the original K-line dies exist somewhere...someone has them.  They would be a great starting point with the proper modifications for a more accurate set of these beautiful cars. 

Anyway, I am SO glad that I purchased mine back in 2006 when they were being blown out by several dealers.  I paid around $75.00 a piece for them...

Alan

A train ahead of its time. judging form the reception that the Atlas CZ cars got I can imagine that this train would be worth the effort. Even if Lionel dug out the tooling for these cars and remade them as is I would buy 2 sets

I don't think Lionel HAS the tooling for ANY of the 21" passenger cars that K-Line previously imported.

Hot Water.....  I don't remember who is supposed to have them...??  I am sure this info has been on the forum but my feeble mind doesn't remember.  Do you know??

Thanks,

Alan

Yes, I know, but I'm not sure it is my place to publicize that information.

The K-line tooling for the passenger cars was owned by the factory and went to Kader when they purchased the factory.  Rumor had it that Atlas bought the tooling, but I can't confirm that.  Also for some perspective, these cars would run over $200 each retail today due to inflation in Asia so when they were originally released they truly were a bargain for the quality of the car.  When priced right, I purchase the 21" cars regardless of road name.  It is 1970-1972 Amtrak accurate more or less.

On the prototype, the main spotting differences between the original El Capitan cars and the Superliners are really clear when you see them side by side as was the case for many years.  The El Capitan cars were built by Budd in 1956 and they have a rounder roof profile and are a few inches shorter than the Superliner cars.  Pullman Standard built those in 1979 and they are a generational improvement having ridden in both types of cars. 

There has been some informal talk about a a GGD set of accurate El Cap cars, just make your requests known!

Believe it or not the best person to probably ask about the whereabouts of the K-Line dies and if they still exist is... Scott Mann.  A big reason he brought out the ESE and '37 SC was because he was able to reuse some of the K-Line tooling and that extrusion.

As noted the K-line cars regularly go for more than GGD sells new cars so if there is interest in having GGD do El Cap cars do let Scott know. 

It's one new extrusion (the height and curvature of the Superliners is different from the El Cap cars, check out pics of the Pacific Parlour cars which are the El Cap lounges still in use on the Coast Starlight), 3 punching dies (coach, diner and lounge), 2 ends (high and low) and one new type of truck (61-CDO for the Diner) required.   Each train had one lounge, one diner, two high-low coaches and 4 or more high-high coaches.  A transition car would require additional tooling using the Pullman extrusion from the '51 SC but the baggage is the same as the '51 SC.

The part that really interests me is being able to recreate a combined SC/El Cap and/or SF Chief and/or Texas Chief.   Makes for an alternative consist for those getting the GGD '51 SC.

I emailed Scott this morning about it, got the "Hmm that would be an interesting project" so we will see. Funny how making up some nonsense comment really spices up the discussion

The first Budd Hi-Level cars can for the EL CAP in 1956.  However, I think ATSF reordered twice, and some of high level cars went to the TEXAS and SAN FRANCISCO CHIEFs, as rdunnii posts.

Plus it seems there were two prototype step-up coaches.  Amtrak cars 9900 and 9901 seemed to have a different window arrangement than the rest of the hi-level cars. 

Alan GREAT SET OF PICTIRES. I do love the Bi Level 21" K-Line and transition sets. They sure make for a GREAT photo op. Thanks again Alan for sharing with us. Bill

Thanks Bill!!  I do like the set....

Alan

Short video with some of the transition cars included.  These were real power hogs drawing up to 0.8 amps each.  They have been retrofitted with LEDs but no video is yet available.

http://www.railsforfun.com/woo...passenger_train.html

The two prototype coaches came on line in 1954, and were used on the El Capitan.  

Come Bill, what you were supposed to say is "Alan, that really is an ugly train you should let mat take the shame so owning so you can own a much nicer train"

Really nice video Bill,  thanks for posting!

Matt....I'll tell you what......I will sell the cars to you.  Just send me a blank check.  No need to fill it out since I would not want you to go to any extra effort especially since you are doing such a nice thing by taking away my shame and embarrassment.  Just send the check, I will take care of the rest....  Oh, and by the way.....it may take a while to pack them as I want to make sure they get to you safely.  AND, don't forget to sign the check before you send it...just leave the rest of it blank.....

Alan

Check is in the mail

The WOODSHIRE is a wonderful outdoor layout
. Dave and his crew sis a SUPER JOB on the layout. I love the Santa Fe equipment running on your layout. Thanks for sharing with us. Bill

Just some details I learned about the "El Cap" that I want to share on this forum.  I put this same post on the "Atlas Rescue Forum" - HO section a few months ago.

All Chair Cars shall be turned as to the instructions from the Passenger Department.
Hi Level Chairs are to arranged whereas the number 1 seat is toward the front of the train, except the first Step down Chair Car in this train shall run backwards, seat 68 to the front.

To identify these cars, the first car running backward will have the 5 lower level windows to the right side or engineers side. The remainder cars shall have the 2 lower windows to the right side or engineers side.

Hi Level Diner shall be run with the three separate upper windows to the front right side or engineers side.
Hi Level Lounge shall be run with the three lower level lounge area on the right side or engineers side.

(For this graphic presentation, please assume that the first car in each consist is an RPO. I could not find to match this graphic, so I just used a second baggage car.)

W-I-D-E-N your display for proper viewing.  You'll know it is wide enough when you see 3 passenger cars per row. 

<----- Direction

Direction ----->

Thanks Jim!!  I would have never imagined that the cars had to be arrange to run in such a specific manner....great info!

Alan

After all these years, I can't believe that someone hasn't made the transition car again. K-Line is the only one out there and they go for $500 and higher on Ebay....when you can find one. Come one Lionel, MTH, GGD.... we need a transition car! 

Woodshire Bill -

Nice video and a GREAT outdoor layout.  I assume that you are attempting to display the combined Super Chief / El Capitan.  It would be better served if you eliminated the trailing Transition Car.  The El Capitan NEVER used more than 1 transition/dorm car in any El Capitan or El Cap / Super Chief combo.  

Please remember, the baggage-dormitory car fitted with a decorative transition roof at one end to smoothly taper the roofline along the train. The new higher roofline did not have a stairway in it but was only for looks. The first (and last) high level coaches were a “step down” design with a stairway at the end and a low-level passage door to join with conventional level passenger cars.  This car was not designed to allow passengers to pass through it.  It served as a dorm for the crew.

When the El Cap and Super chief were combined, a Step-Down coach was the last car in the El Cap consist that mated with the remaining SC cars.

On another note, the El Cap and or El Cap /SC combo ALWAYS had a minimum of four F-units on the point.

Still a great video.  

Woddshire Bill, you have a beautiful outdoor layout with lots of great trains. The outdoor video makes me want to add that to my next layout project. If anybody ahs a set for sale, let me know

When the EC and SC were combined, which cars were first, after the head end:  sleepers or coaches.

OK Dominic, Just for you.

Post 1958
#17/18 Combined Super Chief & El Capitan
Starting in January 1958, Super Chief and El Capitan were run as a single train during off peak times to reduce costs.

F3/F7 A-A-B-B-A
Baggage (storage mail)
Railway Post Office 
Baggage (storage mail)
Baggage-Dormitory (transition car)
Hi-Level 68-Seat Step Down Chair Car
Hi-Level 72-Seat Chair Car
Hi-Level Diner
Hi-Level Lounge
Hi-Level 68-Seat Step Down Chair Car
10-6 Pine Series Sleeper
4-4-2 Regal Series Sleeper
“Pleasure Dome” Lounge
Standard Diner
4-4-2 Regal Series Sleeper
10-6 Pine Series Sleeper
10-6 Pine Series Sleeper

Figures! I always thought that sleepers where generally on the rear, with a diner in between the chair cars and the first class passengers.

Thanks Jim.

Did the ATSF ever consider combinning the TX CHIEF with the SC and EC at Newton KS?

Dominic asked:

"Did the ATSF ever consider combinning the TX CHIEF with the SC and EC at Newton KS?" 

Unless one of our forum members sat in on some high-level meetings, I think it would be difficult to determine if any one item or event was "ever considered".    

Sorry, but I can't offer anything. 

Come on Dominic, that is a totally rhetorical question, especially since any of the management team is long gone by now.

Guys -

Here is a pretty good video of the 16-car El Cap / Super Chief combo that I mentioned above.  The only difference is the video has one less baggage car and one more Hi-Level coach.

WARNING the video is of an N-Scale train.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dc9NSSU2owM

I have a set in storage including the SC cars and a business car all K-Line 21". Let me know if your interested.